Free Will Redux ..first AdvaitaNow Discussion..

[Gary]

This was one of the first posts on this board (March 15, 2006).
Charlie has gone on to be a major YouTubian, written five new books
and now resides on the net and bodily in Enid, Oklahoma. I thought
that I would resurrect an early post here and there.

charlie

~ free will ? vs. no free will ? ~

there is a lot of noise about there being "no free will" in various
settings ... that the person with power to change anything is a
fiction and we are being lived by the divine or the absloute or
whatever label you hang onto the Infinite Ascendant Isness ...

Is that your experience?

The truth is incontrovertible ... you know it beyond doubt. But turn
it into a belief, based on a MEMORY of being lived by that Absolute,
and you have perverted the truth and formed a flat LIE ... the memory
is NOT the Real, Is it?

Experience is, now and immediate, the herenowness of presence, a
moment of timelessness so to speak ... isn't it?

The truth believed is a LIE. Isn't it? Look and see ...

[Gary]

Ohhh.. heard from Richard. He is terrorizing Europe. He wanted to
know how everyone was doing. I assured him that nothing ever happens.

[MarkJ]

I see momentary decisions being made but many of these are based on
conditioning.

Do I put ketchup or mustard on a hot dog?

Do I run towards commotion or away?

Do I stop for hitchhikers?

Do I tip? How much?

Do I smile when I see a particular culture or frown?

The conditions that created these 'preferences' were based on small
incremental adaptations to environment. I didn't knowingly create the
environment but did adapt. The impression of that adaptation
experience in memory is what I used to build preference.

I suppose that once the real care about preference is gone (I like
ketchup on a hot dog but will gladly eat it with mustard too) then the
idea of 'freedom' can really exist. I guess that by casting the
attachement to the shadow aside and living directly one may be able to
make choices in appearance but isn't that action really what we are?
The ultimate infinite eternal essence displayed as movement and
change?

The idea of 'will' brings to mind an individual volition with
individual goals. I see that while in the sleeping dream an event
takes place and seemingly choices are made. Is the dream 'me'
exercising free will? How is this waking dream 'me' really any
different? Is the awakened choosing or responding? Is it 'doing' and
'choosing' or is it just the apparent expression of movement and
change?

My experience now is that everything changes except me, including this
body/mind. I make the same 'choice' over and over. The circumstances
and situations only appear to be different. I don't know that this
could be classified as 'free will'. I don't impose any will that I am
aware of. I am not the doer or chooser of anything.


Mark

[Sandeep-Kuber Technologies]

MarkJ wrote:

I see momentary decisions being made but many of these are based on
conditioning.
  

Which decision is not an effect of a conditioning-at-play.

The decision to respond to this email.........is an expression of the prevailing conditioning-in-the-moment.

<SNIP>

I am not the doer or chooser of anything.

Ergo is anybody else the doer or chooser of anything?



If not........can there be any issue left in Life?

If not....can there be any sense of an anguish with anything in Life?

If not......can there be anything in Life to be rejected?

If not..... can there be anything in Life to be accepted?

If not.....there well might be a sense of pain......but can there be any sense of any suffering?

If not.....there well might be a sense of a preference, but can there be any sense of a stake for the preference to be actualized or not?



A beingness of full participation but can there be any engagement in that participation.







Doooo-Beee-Dooo-Beee-Doooo

[Rodger]

My will was free,but I have an uncle who happens to be an
attorney,full of good will.



On Sep 2, 1:24 am, Sandeep-Kuber Technologies

[Rodger]

ok...sorry 'bout that first response.but,what choice did i have?

on a more serious note (huh?)...

'beyond reverence is love'

what is a preference if not a condition?

what condition is not a condition of conditioning-at-play?

if there ain't no individuated whatchamacallit...

if the will is free why don't let's just choose not to have one?

> > Doooo-Beee-Dooo-Beee-Doooo- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[MarkJ]

Ergo is anybody else the doer or chooser of anything?

- Not that I can see.

If not........can there be any issue left in Life?

- Not that I can see.

If not....can there be any sense of an anguish with anything in Life?

- Not that I can see.

If not......can there be anything in Life to be rejected?

- Not that I can see.

If not..... can there be anything in Life to be accepted?

- Not that I can see.

If not.....there well might be a sense of pain......but can there be
any
sense of any suffering?

- Not that I can see.

If not.....there well might be a sense of a preference, but can there
be
any sense of a stake for the preference to be actualized or not?

- Not that I can see.

A beingness of full participation but can there be any engagement in
that participation.

- Not that I can see.

- I am playing a part but there is no real care where the script takes
it.


On Sep 1, 11:24 pm, Sandeep-Kuber Technologies

[Rodger]

Although every script may eventually end up in the waste bin of
emptiness,in my script is still some real care.

What do I care for or about?

Old dogs and children(but not so much watermelon wine).
Not losing my fingers while ripping a piece of wood.
Not being so open minded that my brains fall out.
My wife,my son,my grandbabies.

Just to name a few.

I can't help it...it's in the script.

[Marcus]

.


You & Me

Subservient to nature of your creation.

You can only be that which you are.

You are a slave to the way you are.

What else could you be ???

[Rodger]

what else could you be?

a non-individuated whatchamacallit?

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Gary]

Of course Charlie asks and answers this question.

I was raised as a Christian, where the "I" sense was reinforced and
the "I" was taught to act according to local laws, "common sense" and
in accord with "Christian values". Sin, hell and the wrath of God
were the dark side of the force and purity, heaven and the love of God
were the good guys. Central to this was little me, estranged from all
of my environment and battling to meet expectations. I am now raising
two little ones in much the same way, minus the idea of sin, hell and
the wrath of God. So, that fictional "I" makes choices, much the way
the TV character makes choices.

Should anyone on this board believe that there is some sort of
ultimate truth to the idea of free will, then please post and let us
know where this comes from and just who has this free will.

On Sep 1, 3:09 pm, Gary <contaxg...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Rodger]

the only ultimate truth i can find to the idea of free will is that
ultimately free will is an idea,not so freely given.but,does seem to
be freely accepted i.e.,remains uninvestigated i.e.,believed.

of course,in believing this idea,what choice do i have?
and,should investigation into this idea arise is that a choice i have
made?

in whose hands is believing or not believing? investigation or
inquiry?

another thing Charlie says,along with others is,the one certainty is,i
am.who can deny this?what choice is there?for the very denial is an
affirmation.

one may investigate to the heart's content,but can one ever
investigate that which investigates?

invest in whatever gate you find yourself standing before...all gates
are open but one.

and that is the one you have already stepped through.and,once you have
stepped through,it immediately closes,and there is no seeing
back.and,that is why mind,with all it's concepts about what is beyond
that closed gate is never open...it is the closed gate and cannot open
itself anymore than the eye can see itself.

but,rest assured...it's all you.for,there can be no other on the other
side of that gate.

a truth believed is only a belief believed.no requirement is required
to know truth.

ok...i'll shutup and give someone else the floor.but,remember,there
was no choice here.i'm just following the script that is me.

> > The truth believed is a LIE. Isn't it? Look and see ...- Hide quoted text -

[godszen]

Gary wrote:
> Should anyone on this board believe that there is some sort of
> ultimate truth to the idea of free will, then please post and let us
> know where this comes from and just who has this free will.

the argument that there is no free-will, no entity,

that you are not the doer, is idiotic

[Rodger]

but,godszen...that's what idiots do.what choice do they have?

i was once told...'learn to forgive the ignorance of others.after
all,you,too,were ignorant once'.

and,then i heard a big belly laugh.

[MarkJ]

There is service to many here. I don't know if I call it care or just
how I am.

If my wife or kids were in danger would I help? I have no idea but I
have a feeling that I wouldn't have much control over what I did at
the time. I imagine I would attack what ever the threat was with
every ounce of instinct and life in this body.

Would I pull my hand back from a saw? I have no idea but I have a
feeling that I wouldn’t have much control over what I did at the
time. I imagine I would pull my hand back with every ounce of
instinct in this body and life in this body.

If my children were hungry would I feed them? I imagine that I would
starve in order to ensure their survival.

I don't know if that's caring or not. It is just what happens.

My mind is a stinking pile of shit and I could care less if it fell
out today. I'm not sure what it's good for.


Mark

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

I am what I am. I am that.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Gary]

Godzen:

I'm a bit confused. Something that you would agree with.

Are you saying that there is an independent entity that makes
independent choices?

or/and

Are you saying that there is an entity that considers itself
independent that believes that it is making independent choices?

Now I brace for one of your one liners from San Diego...go for it.

[Rodger]

according to the script,i call it care.service is ok,too.it's just how
i am.

if you can imagine what you would do or not do then isn't the idea
present?

would I act on the present idea?

ask me when the idea is present.i'll let you know what i did.

but,you can bet it will be/was according to the script.

[MarkJ]

This mind is a convoluted contradictory complex making madness out of
minutia.

I don't know shit.

I am image-ining everything.

Even the memory of present ideas are hazy and inaccurate.

I know what I know and even that I don't know.

What ever the script is, I've never read it but appear to be following
it.

[Rodger]

You don't know shit?

Well,hang around AN and AZ long enough and you will get to know it.

But,as it appears to me,you do know shit.You at least know enough shit
to know you don't know shit.Now,is that knowing some shit,or what?

Following the script or expressing the script?

Or both?

Thank God (or evolution or luck or whatever) for tapered turds!

[MarkJ]

While pursing an aesthetic lifestyle some years ago a sage instructed
me to give up all pleasure. I left that sage as I could not get over
the guilt I felt after taking a good tapered turd.(the names in this
story have been changed to protect the innocent)

I don't really know if I'm following, expressing or being a script but
I find it funny that I know when I'm full of shit.

God pretending to be an animal.

Pinocchio

[Rodger]

in the absence of the guilty,the innocent is a moot issue.

perhaps you should have tried oregano.no,not in the script.

following,expressing,being...at least we know we're full of shit.do we
have one up on 'em,or what?

animal pretending to be god.

pinocchio?

isn't he the guy who kept lieing about how much wood he had?

[MarkJ]

pinocchio is enlightenment

who is it that seeks enlightenment?

so, in the absence of good, evil is a moot issue?

What is evil?

[Rodger]

who is it that seeks enlightenment?

the one with the least wood?

pinocchio is enlightenment? i thought you didn't know shit?

in the absence of evil,good is a moot issue?

what is good?

a cultural thing?

[MarkJ]

pinocchio is a story of enlightenment but it had no effect on me?

good is there when evil is there?

what is good?
in taste good is a preference?
in deed good is a perspective?

does THAT WHICH IS care by what circumstances bodies are
disintigrated?

[Rodger]

can't speak for that which is,but this which is does.

of course,this which is is that which is...just mean,can't speak for
anyone else.

it's your question.your script.what's the answer?

[Rodger]

LOL

> >   that you are not the doer, is idiotic- Hide quoted text -

[Jerry Miller]

Hey, Mark,

 

You don't have to eat the hot dog, ketchup, mustard, or strawberry jam notwithstanding.

[godszen]

Gary wrote:
> Are you saying that there is an entity that considers itself
> independent that believes that it is making independent choices?

it is self evident

aren't you, as intelligent consciousness asking a question?
or is it some other intelligent consciousness that has somehow
subdued you and taken over your body/mind?

the next time your body needs to releive itself of bodily waiste,
try making no-effort and see if your body makes it to the toilet

the next time your standing in front of a judge try telling him;
"but I'm not the doer", and when you're sitting in jail you can
re-assure yourself that "I'm not really here, the doer is here"

[Gary]

godzen:

These two points of view have been argued for thousands of years, or
more. What is clear is that my perspective sees your perspective as
delusional and you see my perspective in the same light. Clearly,
humans don't have a clue, but we are sure convinced that we have the
inside story. I must say that I spent thirty year plus as a seeker,
with your perspective and now I can't understand how I could have been
so misguided. I make no claims to absolute insight into anything.
Your B.S. would certainly sway a vast majority. My bull is a
dependent "my". I don't think I'll try this out on the judge.
Cheers..

[godszen]

Gary wrote:
> What is clear is that my perspective sees your perspective as

> delusional........

well if your experience is different from mine, please explain
yourself, I'd love to hear it

[MarkJ]

> it's your question.your script.what's the answer?

I don't know and don't care but the structure of the question contains
the assumption that it doesn't.

I just like reading responses.

[MarkJ]

Hi Jerry -

That is definitely self evident but now that you've mentioned it I may
need to try strawberry jam on my next hot dog.

Not that I have to. =)

> > > The truth believed is a LIE. Isn't it? Look and see ...- Hide quoted text -

[Marcus]

.

As a boozy friend once asked “so if all reality is illusion and even
illusion is but another pants human excuse for the unexplainable, what
are we? “

A mirror …………………I said…………………….a point where for a moment the universe
checks it’s make-up.

Only human arrogance demands separateness and rightly so. We did wake
up this morning and we can break wind if we choose. My illusion is
great fun, but is not meant for anyone else.

We the mirrors can only reflect that which is illusion observed.

I just can’t tell what’s happening upstairs, but there is defiantly a
party right here.


I am making this script up, where s it coming from ???


Somebody stop me.


.

[MarkJ]

While I enjoy the mirror analogy it is misleading to me.

The farther I go inward the less there is.

The farther I go outward the more there is.

'I' am not really going anywhere, it's just a figure of speach.

> > yourself, I'd love to hear it- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

it is good to know evil,and evil to not know good?

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[MarkJ]

I don't know good or evil but knowledge of this western culture tells
me that those values change constantly.

Smoking is evil today but was a sign of feminine indepence in the 20s'
and 30s' which was seen as good.

One culture sees peyote as evil and another sees it as good.

In this present awareness I only know 'now'?

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[Rodger]

Yes,this now...this present awareness...this presence,aware...now has
knowledge of values that change,constantly.Now is the knowledge of
good and evil.

Feminine independence is still not seen as good by some,in some
cultures...even in our American culture.The view here is,is that that
is evil.Dumb,even.

Smoking,I'm told,is also dumb.Call me dumb...or evil,even.I won't
disagree.Not in,as,of this moment.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If not.....there well might be a sense of pain......but can there be any- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

In this present awareness I only know 'now'?

I added a question mark to a statement.

I added a question mark to a statement?

Funny how a little curly que can do that.

Dumb Dumb sounds nicer than Moron.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The decision to respond to this email.........is an expression of the- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

Dumb Dumb sounds nicer than Moron?

Depends on conditioning...culture?

(I added a question mark to a statement.?)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it.- Hide quoted text -

[Mahakali]

Is there free will? Yes ..and no. No, because none knows his/her
destiny; Yes, because - on many occasions - we are given the choice to
choose among a set of variations of choices available for my/your
situation. I.e. if, because of your bad karma, you are born poor,
then, the choices in your life will be almost non-existent, whereas,
if you happen to be born rich you will have a greater range of
alternatives among which to choose (however, they are alternatives are
to support the same purpose and result).

About 'The truth believed is a LIE': no, I do not think that the
truth believed is a lie...it is only secondhand truth. Direct
experience is what counts here.

Kali

[MarkJ]

True?

It's just animal sounds any way?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

Animal sounds?

God sounds?

What is the sound of one God-animal (Animal-god?) sounding?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If not.....there well might be- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

Mu

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If not....can there be any sense of an anguish with anything in Life?- Hide quoted text -

[godszen]

Mahakali wrote:
> Is there free will? Yes ..and no. No, because none knows his/her
> destiny; Yes, because - on many occasions - we are given the choice to
> choose among a set of variations of choices available for my/your
> situation. I.e. if, because of your bad karma, you are born poor,
> then, the choices in your life will be almost non-existent, whereas,
> if you happen to be born rich you will have a greater range of
> alternatives among which to choose (however, they are alternatives are
> to support the same purpose and result).

I would agree with you for the most part, karma will tend to pull you
in a certain direction, and at the same time, God is always nudging
you to do the right thing, or you can choose something in between

as edgar cayce said; the sword can always be drawn from the stone

[Gary]

godzen:

I can't speak for your experience, only your response to this
question. I see my individual representation as a mind activity
sitting within the silence that witnesses the world turn. I can find
no thinker apart from thought and I can't find a source of thought. I
also seem to carry on much of my daily activity without any thought
whatsoever. My driving, walking and talking seem to happen
automatically. So, my mind seems to simply be a tool which I use to
solve apparent problems. All goes on without any intervention. I can
not find an independent I, just a mental representation. No shinning
sun here. No belief in God. I guess that my mind is just lazy and
unimaginative.

[Anandanand]

I don't know if the discussion is about will or wish. I don't know if
after making the right choices, the result is not as expected, is to
be called no free will. Even the automatic walking and talking is done
by the body, in pitch dark, one is likely to fall in a ditch, but most
probably not in daylight (now why this 'most probably').
I read in some other forum 'The cards you are dealt is your karma, the
hands you play are your dharma'. I would accept 'no free will' if the
Ace suddenly turns in to a Jack.

[Marcus]

.


Inevitability…..Destiny…… Inexorable-ness….karma…….dharma.

What a lovely family they make. What is it in the human psyche that
requires such concepts. Is it the need to label that which is
inherently known in the heart? That, well it’s all supposed to happen
feeling, that makes little sense.

A Chocolate Factory.
Just suppose we where born, lived and died in a chocolate factory.
Then all our philosophy, imaginations, speculation, hopes and fears
would be some derivative or permutation based on chocolate. Our
speculations of the creator and it’s intent would all be based on
chocolate. Even to the extent that beyond the boundaries of the
factory was a world without chocolate. Or that beyond the factory was
only pure intelligent self perpetuating chocolate.

The point being that all that can be conceive by a human psyche can
only extend from it. Hence, the eternity of the multi dimensional
zero we live in, can never be realised in any sense other than that
what we are.

When you have climbed all the mountains, swam all the oceans and
read all the books. You end up with the ultimate reconciliation
with nature……………..I am…..

We all have different mountains and oceans……….


Talking crap is one of mine…………..


Zero…….what’s that about ?????


.

[Rodger]

'What is the human psyche that it requires such concepts'.

Perhaps the very things you mention.? (ode to Mark)

Not that it's 'supposed' to happen as if directed by some other/
outside source,but that 'it' happens as it's supposed to
i.e.,according to it's nature.?

Some say nothing ever happens.
Others that everything is happening.
Both are happenings.

So,what's happening?
Life?

Life without beginning,without ending,can be said to have not
happened.But does that mean Life is not happening?If Life is a
movement...a moment to moment to moment...?

And,if Life is a moment to moment to moment,can Life move in a way not
according to it's nature?

Is that karma?
Is that destiny?

Does not knowing one's destiny negate destiny?
Perhaps,not knowing one's destiny is one's karma?

Chocolate factory?
I thought we all lived in yellow submarines.?
Crap!

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[MarkJ]

-What is it in the human psyche that

requires such concepts. Is it the need to label that which is

inherently known in the heart?-

From My experience:

The questions and search comes from the answers already there. (by
there I only mean center or unfound origin or what we are or what ever
label you use)

The psyche's drive seems to be that of affirmation and rejection of
that which matches the answer already existing 'within'.

If the questions fall away, so does the drive to label / collect
labels.

No matter how many books I read, labels I collected and exchanged and
affirmations I acknowledged, I was still left with the original plain,
simple, natural, unlabeled understanding found through self inquiry.
(even those labels are tossed out as worthless once used)


I suppose I have stated what you stated in my own way.

Mark

(thanks for the 'ode to' Roger, reminds me of a Janis Joplin song)

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[nparabz]

What if the skepticism about destiny is itself destined? What if every
single thing (the good & bad & ugly, atheism & belief, etc) is
micromanaged or synchronized according to a script? What if people who
vehemently believe in free will are themselves doing so because they
are (unknowlingly) being controlled and made to believe in the lie (of
free will)?

What is the Truth and what is Illusion? In olden times, people KNEW
that the Sun rotated around the Earth. They could see it moving across
the sky everyday. All the proof was there... it was beyond doubt,
something they experienced everyday... not just a memory.

[godszen]

Gary wrote:
> I see my individual representation as a mind activity
> sitting within the silence that witnesses the world turn.

that's right, this is the conscious entity

> I can find no thinker apart from thought

you, conscious mind, is the thinker/thought

> and I can't find a source of thought.

you, conscious mind, is the source

> I also seem to carry on much of my daily activity without any thought
> whatsoever.  My driving, walking and talking seem to happen
> automatically.  So, my mind seems to simply be a tool which I use to
> solve apparent problems.  All goes on without any intervention.

these activities happen because you, conscious mind are there,
and would not happen to your body if you were unconscious

> I can
> not find an independent I, just a mental representation.  No shinning
> sun here.  No belief in God.  I guess that my mind is just lazy and
> unimaginative.

you can't find an independent "I", because you are it


it's quite obvious that were are in agreement.....

[Rodger]

yes...

it's all you...
the mental re-presentation...the re-flection...the re-action...

you are your own appearance.

just because you can't see yourself does not mean you are not
there...or here...or whatever.the fact that you cannot find anyone
ought to tell you you are.

god created man in god's own image.

the shadow is noticed because the sun shines.

[MarkJ]

> What if the skepticism about destiny is itself destined?

- or at least conditioned based on environmental experience.

> What if every single thing (the good & bad & ugly, atheism & belief, etc) is
> micromanaged or synchronized according to a script?

Is the script pre-written? Who wrote it? Where does chaos and
anomaly fit in?

>What if people who vehemently believe in free will are themselves doing so because they
>are (unknowlingly) being controlled and made to believe in the lie (of
>free will)?

Or vice versa. What is a belief needed for? What purpose does it
serve?

>What is the Truth and what is Illusion?

Doesn't that come back to belief?

Mark

> > The truth believed is a LIE. Isn't it? Look and see ...- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

What is the Truth and what is Illusion?

Doesn't that come back to belief?

I don't know...depends on what you believe,I guess.


Hi,nparabz! Welcome to the show.

What do they call you for short?

Don't worry about Mark.He's already admitted to me that he doesn't
know shit.

Truth is,you are.
Illusion is,you aren't.

.?

:)

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

Truth is,you are.
Illusion is,you aren't.

Possible confusion in terms is that when looking for you, nothing is
found but the looking.

[Rodger]

Nothing found but the looking,the seeing...which is you.

Truth is,you are looking for you...the 'real' you.
Illusion is,you'll be found somewhere else.

[MarkJ]

>Nothing found but the looking,the seeing...which is you.

- yep

>Truth is,you are looking for you...the 'real' you.
Illusion is,you'll be found somewhere else.

-Yep

Truth is, give up and you'll be found.
Illusion is, try harder and you'll be found.

[Gary]

Welcome Nilesh:

The answer is simple. What if...? This is what if..right now.

Good to see you.. give us hell...but only if it is in the script.

Gary

On Sep 4, 8:10 am, nparabz <npar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Gary]

Godzen:

I tend to define mind as the thinking mind. When the thinking mind is
silent, awareness continues. My purpose in using the thinking mind
when referring to ego, or the common sense of identity is that it is
this thinking mind that most folks refer to when referencing
"I"" (ego..the story..the memories..the associations). Clearly, you
are not such a person, but this is the "I" that I refer to as
dependent. The "I" that witnesses this "I" can't be seen. It is
inferred, but as mentioned by many others, the eye can not see the
eye. You are free to define mind in a less restricted fashion in that
my definition is purely artificial. Of course any narrowly defined
aspect of the whole ignores the totality and is but an artificial
perspective. So, the electro-chemical activity of the brain most
likely subtends the mental processes, including our sense of
awareness. I'm betting this goes away when the brain activity stops.
So, yes, "you are it", but it can't be seen directly and "it" becomes
a moot point after death.

[Rodger]

Yep,yep.

[godszen]

the point is; that you (consciousness) are the doer

to imply that there is some other intelligence that is in control
would be a statement of being in duality

> >   it's quite obvious that were are in agreement.....- Hide quoted text -

[Marcus]

MarkJ,
Thank you kindly, I’m sooo with you man.

That’s it…………………

“No matter how many books I read, labels I collected and exchanged

and
affirmations I acknowledged, I was still left with the original
plain,
simple, natural, unlabeled understanding found through self inquiry.
(even those labels are tossed out as worthless once used)"

This “I” Experiences :-
Travels the path to come to realise there is no path. Only my
subscription to it. The search for great wisdom is the same. The
greatest wisdom is to come to fully understand there really is no
wisdom or stupidity.

Being handicapped by my apparent ego and it’s wonton-desires, I
feverishly search to break free from it’s vice-like grip. Kicking
and screaming I drag my ego thought numerous experiences to dismantle
it’s strong-hold. Time and time again, bouncing off the walls of
limitation in this experience of “I” so tested to the brink of
destruction. Eventually the monkey is tamed. Sublime peace seems
to fill all the gaps and the “I” experience takes on a whole new
meaning. Due respect for the search, it was necessary for me. What
it reviled is that all “I” could ever experience is the sole
consequence of the “I” manifestation, in this now. Inherent from
birth to death to birth again.

Those stepping stone concepts of yesterday, tomorrow, illusion or
reality, are only “I” having a good portion of “I”ness.

I guess I’m not the first to feel this way.

I do like a good portion.


.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

Hi Marcus -

So, the search ends and Self is found to have never been missing.

Do you think that there is a greater or broader form of awareness/
consciousness to be cultivated as many traditions hold?

[Gary]

Yes, consciousness is da-thing.

"to imply that there is some other intelligence that is in control
would be a statement of being in duality"

My point is that there is no other. I express this by suggesting that
the commonly accepted independent, individual entity is a
fabrication. Dats not it. .. well.. everything is it.. but it isn't
what it seems

I have a real mystery for you. How is it that the Crusty Crab burned
down? The whole story unfolds under water. Now, that is a real
mystery. (Spongebob SquarePants ..duality meets the sponge)

[MarkJ]

I am a student of Sponge Bob.

Similar to the underwater beach, the Krusty Krab burned down in their
minds. It was back in the same condition and position moments later.

[Gary]

MarkJ:

Ah, profound. That explains all the mishaps on the show. Were
SpongeBob's yellow underwear just a dream? I guess that we will never
know. Maya...

Thanks for correcting my spelling. You are my new guru.

Gary

[MarkJ]

Your mantra is 'I'M READY!' as this was passed to me by Sponge Bob.

Mark

[Ram]

Will is a free as You are.... (But I hear a hella lot richer after
Taledega Nights.)

Ricky: "Dear lord baby Jesus or as our brothers to the south call you,
Jesus, we thank you so much for this bountiful harvest of Domino's,
KFC and the always delicious Taco Bell. I just want to take time to
say thank you for my family: my two beautiful, beautiful handsome,
striking sons Walker and Texas Ranger, or T.R., as we call him and of
course my red-hot smoking wife, Carley who is a stone-cold fox. Who if
you were to rate her ass on 100, it would easilly be a 94....

Ricky: .... Dear, tiny infant Jesus, we--"
Carley: "Hey, um, you know, sweetie, Jesus did grow up. You don't
always have to call him, 'baby.' It's a bit odd and off-putting to
pray to a baby."
Ricky: "Well, I like the Christmas Jesus best and I'm saying grace.
When you say grace, you can say it to grownup Jesus or teenage Jesus
or bearded Jesus, or whoever you want."
Carley: "You know what I want? I want you to do this grace good, so
that God will let us win tomorrow."
Ricky: "Dear tiny Jesus in your golden-fleece diapers, with your tiny,
little, fat, balled-up fists pawing at the air..."
Chip: "He was a man. He had a beard."
Ricky: "Look, I like the baby version the best, do you hear me? I win
the races and I get the money."
Carley: "Ricky, finish the damn grace."
Cal: "I like to picture Jesus in a Tuxedo T-shirt because it says,
like, 'I wanna be formal, but I'm here to party too.' 'Cause I like to
party, so I like my Jesus to party."
Walker: "I like to picture Jesus as a ninja fighting off evil
samurai."
Cal: "I like to think of Jesus, like, with giant eagle's wings."
Ricky: "Yeah."
Cal: "And singing lead vocal for Lynyrd Skynyrd with, like, an angel
band. And I'm in the front row and I'm hammered drunk."
Carley: "Hey, Cal? Why don't you just shut up?"....

Ricky Bobby: Dear little baby Jesus, who's sittin' in his crib watchin
the Baby Einstein videos, learnin' 'bout shapes and colors. I would
like to thank you for bringin' me and my moma together, and also that
my kids no longer sound like retarded gang-bangers.

"98% of people will die sometime in their lives.”

- If one takes oneself to be an individual, there is all this talk
about free will vs. destiny. When one know oneself, come calamity or
fortune, pleasure or pain, habits or lack of vasanas, it's all My
will. Whatever comes or goes, it's My will without 'me.'

:O)

[godszen]

MarkJ wrote:
> Do you think that there is a greater or broader form of awareness/
> consciousness to be cultivated as many traditions hold?

yes

[godszen]

Gary wrote:
> Yes, consciousness is da-thing.
>
> "to imply that there is some other intelligence that is in control
> would be a statement of being in duality"
>
> My point is that there is no other.  I express this by suggesting that
> the commonly accepted independent, individual entity is a
> fabrication.

are you a fabrication?

your individual body/mind does not get up and move around without you,
and no other conscious intelligence is going to it

[empty2]

Hi MarkJ and Godzen,

I'm a little confused........

"a greater or broader *form* of awareness/
consciousness".......?

'form' as in object of awareness/consciousness, or 'way' of being
aware/conscious?

...limited to details, or open to all?

...or as none of the above?

[Gary]

"Gary" is a fabrication and has a story.
Godzen.. Anything that I say, or think is simply a misrepresentation
of the totality. The moment I focus upon qualities that are called
"I", my focus removes from thought aspects exterior to my interest. I
can not define "I" in totality. I just can't get my mind around the
concepts, but as with you, there is a sense of the thing.

I don't have the driving "spiritual" interest, nor the intellectual
stamina of many on this board. I'm just content with a quieter mind,
less fear and a seeing through of the chaos that remains. The more I
explore these thing, the less my mind can grasp. Luckily, the mind no
longer feels the need to grasp.

[MarkJ]

Hi empty2

I'm empty too.

Form was just a word I used instead of level or sensitivity.

Something like the idea of Buddha mind or the great causal body.

These are just concepts to me but point to something that may be more
natural but have gained a mystique that has nothing to do with the
actual experience.

I was asking this in response to an 'end of the search' statement.

I want to know if it is the end of the search or if there is now a new
search for 'higher levels' of something.

I don't have this drive or desire. I don't have any need or
attraction to these concepts.

The question is open to anyone.

Mark

[Beyond-I-AM]

"98% of people will die sometime in their lives.”

And the baby jesus quotes, Love it! Haven't seen the movie but sounds
like a blatant mocking of the Nascar Bible Belt mentality.

I did watch a move the other night called "A thin Red Line" which has
many spiritual undertones. A nice quote that I liked was:

"Where is it that we were together? Who were you that I lived with?
The brother. The friend. Darkness, light. Strife and love. Are they
the workings of one mind? The features of the same face? Oh, my soul.
Let me be in you now. Look out through my eyes. Look out at the things
you made. All things shining."

[godszen]

Beyond-I-AM wrote:
> "98% of people will die sometime in their lives.”

what happens to the other 2% ?

> Oh, my soul. Let me be in you now. Look out through my eyes.
> Look out at the things you made.

that sounds like duality?

[Beyond-I-AM]

IT WAS A JOKE, Hello! I guess the other 2% were never born and will
never die.

was that a question or a statement?

No more duality than 99% of the things you say. But the other 1% is
appreciated.

Just funning you buddy. Forget about the jokes and shadows and remain
as the as the sun, or the wind that animates the life and light of the
sun, and there's no need for concern of any of it. Beyond that, simply
take rest in the silent still space without attributes. "Be still,
know who you are, and be at peace." All of the rest of this bs is a
worthless waste of life.

[Mahakali]

Hi Beyond-I-Am...funny sense of humour..

I was going to reply to your other post (#75) but when I read this I
thought not to reply anymore...

You wrote " "Be still, know who you are, and be at peace." Do you
think that watching films/movies helps finding stillness or be at
peace?

Kali

[Beyond-I-AM]

Stillness and peace are your natural state. All of the appearances and
disappearances on the screen have no impact, do not touch That. The
whole world is like a movie. What effect does it have on stillness,
unless you take it to be true, or somehow become invested in it. No
appearance can take you away from yourself, even if you think they do.
Such ideas are not necessary in life and serve no other purpose but to
delude the one who take appearances to be true.

> > worthless waste of life.- Hide quoted text -

[empty2]

Hi empty too,(MarkJ)

Yes. Very nice. Thank you.

It seems the search ends when the searcher is no more......if it ever
was.

> > >   yes- Hide quoted text -

[godszen]

you have to be still, and let the space stabilize

[Mahakali]

Hi Beyond-I-AM, a real nice a comment, really! Thank you.

Perhaps a correction here: " no appearance can take away from my-own-
Self, even if I think they do"

Kali

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Rodger]

Kali,

Yes,no appearance can take away from my-own-Self.For,what is the
appearance if not my own self?And,even should I think it not,what is
that but my own self thinking and appearing as my own self?

What is appearance if not the movement of stillness and peace?In what
way are the two not two except by and through appearance,which is only
appearance?

Already investment is made by holding oneself as true or not
true...effected or uneffected.

[Rodger]

Hi Mark J...Hi Empty2,

I'm empty,too.

Empty in that there is no desire or attraction or drive to search for
higher levels to that containing all levels.

I don't recall how exactly it was worded,but I believe it was
you,Mark,that talked about just knowing things like how to change the
oil in your car.This is it,for me.This is higher levels...there may be
a better way to change the oil than the way in which I now change the
oil.Making any sense?

There is no search for that which searches.New concepts,or a higher
level of concepts to express,yes.By that I am meaning what has been
mentioned several times previously...a refinement of the expressions
of concepts.The drive is pleasure,fun,joy.

I do like the expression,'consciousness ever expanding'.But,however
far consciousness expands,consciousness has limits.Consciousness is
consciousness.Higher levels is higher limits.

If it isn't clear as to what I'm saying,then maybe I am at a higher
level of consciousness.Or.maybe I am at a lower level.Depends on one's
present level,I suppose.

And,oh yeah...if will depends on this on that,in what way is will ever
free?

Can will will what it wills,or does will just follow what is willed?

If you are not free and willing to follow your own will,who's will
will you follow?

Will you see this as more silliness,or will you go,hmmmm?

What will that depend on?

Your will?

Which depends on what?

What will be will be.?

(By the way,Mark,I take my car to one of those ten minute places.It
costs more,but requires less.)

> > >   yes- Hide quoted text -

[MarkJ]

---This is it,for me.This is higher levels...there may be

a better way to change the oil than the way in which I now change the

oil.Making any sense? ---

Continuing to refine method and knowledge in daily living is natural
to me. Isn't their some saying that goes ' the gazelle's grace is
honed by the tiger's tooth' or something?

--There is no search for that which searches.--

--New concepts,or a higher level of concepts to express,yes.By that I

am meaning what has been
mentioned several times previously...a refinement of the expressions

of concepts.--

--The drive is pleasure,fun,joy.--

I would drop the pursuit of higher levels of consciousness into this
pleasure bucket too as these higher levels are experienced and that
experience is within consciousness.

You are at a higher level of consciousness - wasn't is some triple
digit plane out there with Gary?

[herenow]

hey oh why's 1

how do i get back to message no 1 with out going back 30 at a time ?

Gary wrote:
> This was one of the first posts on this board (March 15, 2006).
> Charlie has gone on to be a major YouTubian, written five new books
> and now resides on the net and bodily in Enid, Oklahoma. I thought
> that I would resurrect an early post here and there.
>
> charlie
>
> ~ free will ? vs. no free will ? ~
>
> there is a lot of noise about there being "no free will" in various
> settings ... that the person with power to change anything is a
> fiction and we are being lived by the divine or the absloute or
> whatever label you hang onto the Infinite Ascendant Isness ...
>
> Is that your experience?
>
> The truth is incontrovertible ... you know it beyond doubt. But turn
> it into a belief, based on a MEMORY of being lived by that Absolute,
> and you have perverted the truth and formed a flat LIE ... the memory
> is NOT the Real, Is it?
>
> Experience is, now and immediate, the herenowness of presence, a
> moment of timelessness so to speak ... isn't it?
>
> The truth believed is a LIE. Isn't it? Look and see ...

[Mahakali]

Once you have clicked on a topic i.e. Free Will Redux, click on
Options (top right hand side) and then, on the left hand side, click
on View as a tree. The topic will collapse as a tree on the left hand
side of your screen..any of those comments are clickable.

Kali

> > The truth believed is a LIE. Isn't it? Look and see ...- Hide quoted text -

[Mahakali]

HI Rodger, this can get to the point of being all semantic; however,
till there is an "I" that thinks this is my appearance appearing as my
own self ..then, there is still separation because that is what the
"I" does.

Kali

[herenow]

Thanks
i actually wondered if there was a collapsed set of all TOPICS/
Discussions

ie
discussion#1 date.....2006

discussion#2 date.....2006

.
.
.

discussion#376 date...2008

[Mahakali]

click on 'About this group' (top right hand side); this link will lead
you to the Archive; also, you can click on
'Feeds Latest 15 messages (RSS) - View all available feeds (RSS and
Atom) '

if you click on 'View all available feeds' (Atom or RSS), you can get
a few lines of the topics (50 per page) and you can sort them by date,
Title or Author; hope this helps.

Kali

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[herenow]

Thanks again MahaKali

noe to go and look for the ghostd of all those long fead posts

also 4.33 am herenow so byi everypne..sleep calls