Dealing with RSI
hoffm...@gmail.com
of my wrists. I tried reading some of the info here:
but there is so much of it I barely know where to start. To make
matters worse I am working out of a hotel for the next few days, so
there is very little I can do to improve my desk situation.
I installed RSIWarrior which seems like it will be a big help and doing
various exercises for my forearms and wrists which also make me feel
better.
Anyone have any other good tips for how to reduce RSI exposure that fit
into a busy lifestyle?
--
Michael Hoffman
P.S. I've been reading 43Folders via Bloglines for some time, but this
is my first post to the discussion group.
Michael Langford
to get wrist braces from the drugstore and wear them for a week, and
take advil to reduce any residual pain and swelling and to make an
doctors appt after a week if it still hurt.
Apparently pain isn't as bad as numbness or tingling. Anyone know why that is?
I occasionally use the braces while typing now whenever I start to
have troubles. I also retrained myself to use proper keyboarding
techniques, such as never pushing two keys down with the same hand at
the same time (I didn't know this until recently, but Ctrl-C should be
right hand on ctrl, and left hand on C) and getting an ergonomically
shaped keyboard at work.
--michael
Michael Langford --- 404-386-0495
The demon that you can swallow gives
you its power, and the greater life's pain,
the greater life's reply --Joeseph Campbell
Andrew Garrett
Do Something Now. If you're noticing pain, it's because of strain or
damage. If you're not damaged yet, you will be if you don't find and
fix what's causing it.
First, look to your posture/desk. Correct what you can. Get someone
with a bit of an idea about what's right to look at your positioning,
see what can be corrected.
If the wrist that's sore is your mousing wrist, try a trackball - one
of the ones where you move the
ball with your thumb and click with your fingers (my personal
preference is one of the microsoft optical trackballs). I can still
use a mouse, but more than ~ 5 minutes causes a day or two of pain. I
tried various ergonomic mice, and really didn't like any of them in
terms of comfort or usability - but YMMV.
Keyboard - I use a Kinesis advantage[1] - both at work and at home.
If you're broad across the shoulders something like a Microsoft
Natural would probably help - but by the time I got around to doing
anything about it, my wrist was already permanently damaged - so I
needed the good gear.
Kinesis stuff isn't cheap, but it is quality - you'll also be more
careful about eating and drinking at your desk when you've spent close
on US$400 on a keyboard...
When your wrist isn't sore, exercise it. Big, heavy motions are
better than little, light motions - do some wrist weight lifting, or
tension type work. [2]. I keep one of those little V shaped hand
exercise thingies that you squeeze (and I have no idea of the name of
them) at each desk.
NB - I'm not a medical or ergonomics expert - I'm, just a guy who's
had issues, and has mostly overcome them by judicious application of
some hard brain sweat and quality technology.
Andrew
[1] http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/
[2] This isn't something I've ever seen recommended anywhere else -
but it seems to me that if small, light motions are causing pain, then
stretching out the tendons and building muscle that activates them can
only help - and it did for me.
They sicken of the calm; http://scroll.redemption.co.nz/
That know the storm. http://www.digital-shot.com/
Jacob Stetser
tingling indicates a greater level of damage to the nerve
Jake
Myrcurial
If you've still got feeling, you're in a reasonable place. I ignored
the situation for most of 1994-1997 and I'm still paying for it now.
The simplest fix you can possibly make right now is to switch mousing
hands. I know that this sounds totally un-doable, but it really is.
There is a part of your brain that can "automatically" invert right and
left. Flip the mouse to the other side of your desk, then flip the
settings in your OS of choice so that the primary button is the other
button. Then just close your eyes and go.
This will actually work.
While you're doing that, take an NSAID like advil or aspirin - what
ever you can tolerate.
The longer term fix is like the old saw "Doc, it hurts when I do
this... Well then, don't do that". There is something you're doing
that is not compatible with your biomechanics. Think about the GTD
"mind like water" and figure out how to apply it to your work posture -
you shouldn't have to expend any effort to get your body into the right
position. Hold your hands in front of you, find the comfortable
position (first fingers and thumbs make a triangle with the thumbs
higher than the fingers) and find a way to work with your hands mostly
neutral like that.
If I were you, I'd avoid braces - they can cause atrophy in the
muscles.
You should be treating your hands the way an athlete treats his body -
they are your path to fortunes (at least if you're geek enough to read
43F via bloglines). Exercise those fingers, geeks should be able to do
finger tip push ups - you didn't hear stories about the steno pool
having issues - because they had to pound the living crap out of the
old manual typewriters.
Take breaks and get in the habit of keyboard shortcuts - mice are
slightly evil, trackpads less so.
I think that's all for now - if I think of more, I'll chime back in.
Jamie
Vicki Brown
>If the wrist that's sore is your mousing wrist, try a trackball - one
>of the ones where you move the
>ball with your thumb and click with your fingers (my personal
>preference is one of the microsoft optical trackballs). I can still
>use a mouse, but more than ~ 5 minutes causes a day or two of pain. I
>tried various ergonomic mice, and really didn't like any of them in
>terms of comfort or usability - but YMMV.
So I add - everyone is different. Pay attention to what is causing you
problems. Change that behaviour.
> Do Something Now.
Absolutely.
At 14:53 -0400 10/17/2005, Michael Langford wrote:
>Apparently pain isn't as bad as numbness or tingling. Anyone know why that
>is?
things have gone numb, you've put on enough pressure to temporarily cut off
the flow of feeling or the flow of blood. Bad news.
Some chiropractors can work on your wrists if your wrists are giving you
problems. (Yes, I know. But not all chiropractors are quacks. if they say
they can cure anything, run away.. But manipulation can help if you're
putting pressure on the nerves).
--
- Vicki
ZZZ
zzZ San Francisco Bay Area, CA
z |\ _,,,---,,_ Books, Cats, Tech
zz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://cfcl.com/vlb
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://cfcl.com/vlb/weblog
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) http://heatercats.com
meta...@gmail.com
don't feel like retyping.
Short form:
- mix it up
tasks (high typing/low typing), input devices, at computer/away
activities, etc.
- regular breaks
20 minutes max steady typing
drink more non-caffeinated liquids to help biologically enforce this
- set up a good workspace
pay special attention to keyboard & input device surface height
(I find hotel desks so much the wrong height that I'd be better
stealing the pillows off the bed and sitting on the floor to work)
Good luck!
Dinah
hoffm...@gmail.com
been offering. Please keep them coming. I've already started using some
of them. Switching mouse hands was easier than I thought it would be
(when I switch mouse buttons as well).
I'm also going to visit my physician as soon as I get home for a
referral to someone else.
--
Michael Hoffman
Jaclyn
like tendonitis in my right elbow and soreness in my wrist. What helps
me are:
- An ergonomic keyboard. I like the ones that are split and raised in
the center. Just split doesn't help me as much. I really like the
ones that have the feet in the front to tip the whole keyboard back
(exactly the opposite from what most keyboards do) but they're harder
to find.
- Instead of a trackball, I switched to a pen tablet. Mainly because I
do at times need to do precision work (design and photo editing) and
because I really hate trackballs.
- When my hand does start bothering me, I use a fairly cheap
compression glove from the drugstore. It's not a brace, but it does
provide a little bit of extra support.
- Taking breaks. I just can't sit and type for 4 hour stretches like I
used to. Sometimes I even switch to a pen and paper.
Good luck! You're right to be concerned. I've seen people who have
had to resort to surgery for carpal tunnel. That's not pretty.
Jaclyn
rick...@gmail.com
get it in my wrist, elbow and shoulder from time-to-time):
Prevention (one guy's story):
http://www.concentric.net/~Ttwang/tech/carpel.htm
Exercises:
http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/sma/sma_xwristte_art.htm
The best thing I've found that helps reduce the inflamation is ice. Get
an ice cube and massage your wrist with it until the ice cube has
melted. Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Feels a lot better
afterwards...
HTH,
Rick
dekay
variety. This solved most of my problems with a "mouse hand" as well.
My first solution was to us a "break enforcer" (some software that
actually blocks to computer so you have to take a break!
Then getting another mouse, using mthe trackpad, a wacom tablet and a
trackball really did the job for me.
But generally the best solutions is being aware of the problem in the
first place.
Dan
PS: And sometimes taking diclofenac or so for 3 days helps with the
inflammation as well. In my case I had a period of 2 years where taking
100mg diclo for 3 days would cure any symptoms and help me adjust my
habits - each "diclo treatment" was effective for about half a year, so
nothing problematic at all...
Jeff Porten
ago. Switched to the Dvorak keyboard layout, and they went away.
I've regretfully lost my 80 WPM QWERTY skills, but I'm comparable on
Dvorak and my hands don't hurt anymore.
Best,
Jeff
burkhar...@freenet.de
I collect specially for people who are suffering on RSI a weekley
updated RSI-Blog.
Some of it is in german and france, but the most links are in english
language. My wife have the same problems solved with an new ergonomic
desk, new keybord and special mouse equipment and last but not least
with a physician how practice very good acupuncture...
If you have more questions please feel free to write to
mailto:rsi...@burkhard-sellke.de. I'm usually to bussy to look into
this google group!
best wishes for your health and sorry for my bad english
Burkhard
burkhar...@freenet.de
I forget the RSI-blog-link http://www.burkhard-sellke.de/rsiblog.htm
There you'll find my complete email adress to - just click "über mich"
Burkhard
cobaltclam
mailing list (instructions for joining are towards the bottom of the
page).
About 12 years ago, I developed bilateral RSI due to computer work and
couldn't use my hands for much of anything for 2 or 3 years. Through
therapy, retraining, and lots of good info from the sorehanders, I've
gotten much of my functioning back. A for fun typing test the other day
came out at 70 wpm. Not bad for a person who spent two years on voice
rec. software with a foot mouse.
The best advice I got is to make a game of doing everything with as
little effort and impact (no key banging) as possible.
ltg
neilio
tunnel-like symptoms for years in my fretting hand. This condition has
been exacerbated by my career switch to computers and the web seven
years ago.
Because of this I've compiled a pretty extensive list of things to do
to help alleviate pain, and have managed to continue playing and
working without too much discomfort.
- Take cod liver oil. This is an old musician's remedy that actually
works very well. I recommend buying it in capsules as it tastes like
ass, but after 2-3 weeks of consistent usage you should notice a
definite improvement in the level of pain. Obviously this isn't an
option if you're a vegetarian - can anyone recommend a good
vegetarian-friendly alternative? I seem to remember reading that flax
seed oil is a good source of omega 3 fatty acids.
- Take advantage of existing ergonomic hardware. My home setup includes
a Microsoft split keyboard (I just picked up the Natural Ergonomic
4000[1] which is awesome) and a Wacom tablet to replace a mouse. I've
tried trackballs but you can't design with a trackball (at least I
can't) and the tablet really makes a difference.
[1]:
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=043
- Microbreaks are your friend. If you work long hours, make sure you
take a minute or two break every 15 minutes, and get up and away from
the computer every 10 minutes each hour or two. I use an application
(AntiRSI for Mac OS X : http://antirsi.inhelsinki.nl/) to remind me to
stop and relax for a bit. This also really helps with eye and back
strain.
- As someone already mentioned, learning dvorak is a good way to reduce
keyboarding pain, but I personally don't have the time or inclination
to invest in that. It's a QWERTY world, after all. But I do know
friends who have done this and swear by it, so ymmv.
- Drink lots of water. I try to get in about 4-6 of the smaller bottles
of water a day (don't know how much that is) and that seems to help
wash out the other crap (namely caffeine) I induce in that can affect
RSI.
- Treat yourself to a deep tissue massage every month or two. Hell,
everyone should do this: it's good for stress, back and shoulder pain,
peace of mind, and it helps to keep your joints limber.
- Cultivate good sitting habits. Try to make sure you're sitting
properly and not slouching or sitting weirdly. This will help reduce
the strain on your arms, shoulders, and wrists.
Above all, listen to your body. If you start to feel pain, tingling, or
numbness in your wrists, arms, or shoulders, there's obviously an
issue. Stop what you're doing, get up, and get away from the computer
for a bit. Get outside for a quick walk around the building, or go and
hassle your co-workers with another homegrown raunchy limerick.
My pain was so bad for a while I was sure that I would have to quit
what I was doing and find a new career. By implementing all of this
(especially the raunchy limericks) I've managed to find a good balance
between being productive and keeping myself healthy.
Hell, you only have one body. It's not worth doing permanent damage to
yourself for the sake of a deadline, right?
Dennis C. During
strain injury (RSI) ? Which has evidence supporting the claim ? Is the
idea for 6 and 7 that tension anywhere in the body causes or worsens RSI ?
Is it the drinking of the water or the gripping of the water bottle that's
supposed to help ? Do the breaks work because they lead to less total time
on the keyboard or fewer motions ?
1. Cod liver/Omega-3 ?
2. Ergonomic hardware ?
3a. 1 minute breaks every 15 minutes ?
3b. 10 minutes breaks every hour ?
4. Dvorak ?
5. Water ?
6. Deep tissue massage ? Which tissues ?
7. Good sitting habits ? Which ones ?
What makes you think caffeine affects RSI ? How does it affect it ?
Are there other treatments for RSI ? Do they have evidence supporting their
efficacy ?
Dennis C. During
dcdu...@gmail.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SelfExperimenters
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/WestchesterNY-Adult-ADHD
-----Original Message-----
From: neilio
...
neilio
> strain injury (RSI) ?
I'm not a doctor, so I'm shouldn't attempt to justify any of this
beyond "it works for me". My RSI used to be so bad I could only work
15-20 minutes at a time before having to stop - the pain was
unbearable. Adopting all of this has made it possible for me to work.
That said, some of this is based on empirical evidence (good sitting
habits, using ergonomic equipment, omega-3's fatty acids). RSI stems
mostly from the body being held in an unnatural position for long
periods of time, so anything that can help body positioning and
circulation is a good thing (numbers 2,3a,3b,4,6, and 7). For example,
look at how you're holding a mouse the next time you're working. Most
people hold the mouse with their wrist turned so that the hand forms a
90 degree angle from the desk edge. This is an unnatural position.
I point out caffeine specifically because it's a diuretic, and because
it's scientifically proven to cause muscle tightness, cramping, and
dehydration in athletes[1]. Part of being limber is being fully
hydrated. That said, even with all of this implemented sitting at a
computer for long periods of time is fatiguing. Getting up for a break
once an hour or two helps to prevent this by relieving the tension of
sitting with one's arms in basically the same position for too long.
[1]: Just one of many references to caffeine and athletes:
http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/sma/sma_caffeine_sma.htm
Dennis C. During
I didn't mean to be personally challenging, nor even challenging to the
validity of your decision to implement a shotgun strategy to resolving your
personal difficulties with RSI. I DID want to get the benefit of your
research and reasoning on cause and effect. I think that anyone else
interested in preventing RSI might want to think the issue through, Google
RSI, and skeptically examine what they find. Your two posts are a good
starting point.
Dennis C. During
dcdu...@gmail.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SelfExperimenters
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/WestchesterNY-Adult-ADHD
-----Original Message-----
From: neilio
Evan Edwards
> As a long-time touring musician, I've suffered from RSI and carpal
> tunnel-like symptoms for years in my fretting hand. This condition has
> been exacerbated by my career switch to computers and the web seven
> years ago.
computer user. In the past, when my wrists started hurting, I switched back
and forth through the day between playing a guitar (usually while reading
something on the screen) and typing. The pain went away fairly quickly.
Nowadays I just take regular breaks from the computer, both short walking
breaks and playing guitar while reading, and I haven't had any problems in
years. I think the key is simply breaking up your actions (which is the most
common medical recommendation I've seen).
--
Evan "JabberWokky" Edwards
http://www.cheshirehall.org/
bpmcc...@gmail.com
Sit in a chair and adjust it so that your knees are at a 90 degree
angle with your feet flat on the floor. Make sure the seat is not
putting pressure on the underside of your legs.
Put your arms at a 90 degree angle, close to your body. Let your hands
form a neutral position. This is where your keyboard should be. Go
buy a keyboard tray that will conform to this height and has negative
and positive tilt adjustment. They're expesnive, but so worth it.
Make sure the mouse surface can be reached with your arms in the 90
degree position. You should be mousing with your arm at the 90 degree
postion with motion pivoting at your shoulder. Don't plant your wrist.
Set your monitor so that your eyes are parallel with the top of the
screen. This helps your neck and back muscles.
Your goal is for your computing position to have no stressful
conditions. Your body's joints and muscles should feel relatively
relaxed.
Take breaks and strech often. Go do some yoga. Breath. We all need
to use the computer, we might as well not destroy our bodies doing it.
All these things work for me and were referred to me by my office
nurse. I work for a wonderful company that provides ergo assessments
and the tools for the job. They work great.