What? You are categorizing an entire country by a single person? Think before you talk! That's like saying US kids are all young Bill Clintons (not sure which is scarier). The German government censors violence, the US government censors porn. Neither is perfect.
Mike Evans wrote in message <66ptd6$gk...@www.3dfx.com>... >The reason is that your government thinks it is too gory, and did not pass >their test. I guess they don't want to influence any young hitlers out >there. :-)
"Fiffy" <fi...@nospam.com> wrote: >There is no doubt that the amount of violence that kids are exposed to has >risen dramatically in the last few decades. Of course this does not only >concern video games, but also TV, movies and everyday experience >e.g. in school.
Agreed.
>There is good reason to assume that this results in an >increased willingness of the kids to use violence to solve their problems.
No there isn't - years of sociological research has been utterly inconclusive on this issue.
>Also it is quite annoying that everytime when a game or something is >affected by the German laws for protection of the youth, some ignorant >American jumps up and starts accusing Germany of censorship
Dave Glue wrote: > Jon wrote in message <3493b27a.363381...@news.3dfx.com>... > >>It's like that 14-year old kid recently who killed 3 teenage girls > and > >critically injured 3 others. He supposedly said he did it because of
> >a movie he watched.
> And it's newsworthy because it's such a freak occurance. So we have > one > stupid kid - chances are there would have been _some_ kind of negative
> influence in his life to spark a similar incident, movie or not. I > always > find it amusing that the people I see who are for censorship of pop > culture > most often are the religious right - how about a tally for the number > of > murders and violent acts that have occured in the name of Christ? Can > I > have an Amen, brother! :)
> >Different people have different levels of susceptibility to > >suggestion. If you are susceptible enough to kill someone because of
> >video game or movie, you are disfunctional, not the movie/video game.
Fiffy wrote in message <66sf42$d4...@www.3dfx.com>... >There is no doubt that the amount of violence that kids are exposed to has >risen dramatically in the last few decades. Of course this does not only >concern video games, but also TV, movies and everyday experience >e.g. in school. There is good reason to assume that this results in an >increased willingness of the kids to use violence to solve their problems.
Why is their "good reason"? Because you "assume" there is? Some of the most violent and sexist entertainment directed at youth is Japanese anime. That violence does not carry over into real life for many reasons, be it cultural reasons (such as an emphasis on the family), a swift and severe justice system (which can be argued infringes on personal rights), a high level of education, etc. What I'm saying is that it's ridiculously simplistic to point to a violent image on a screen, then make the leap of faith to assume that if a kid is exposed to that, he will act it out. There are _levels_ of imitation, limits to how dumb even young kids can be. :)
BTW, violent crime has been dropping in the US steadily for the past few years. When I see some proof that violent video games have actually caused a jump in violent crime I'll accept the relationship. As it stands now, the criminals have been in the same demographics they've always been in, before and after videogames were available.
>Also it is quite annoying that everytime when a game or something is >affected by the German laws for protection of the youth, some ignorant >American jumps up and starts accusing Germany of censorship or violation >of human rights or similar nonsense.
It is censorship, plain and simple. And I'm not an "ignorant American", I'm a Canadian who likes to have actual reseach done before I "assume" my opinions and "assumptions" are reality.
>And this is coming from a country >where even harmless movies like "Basic Instinct" are censored because >of some mild sexual content ...
No doubt, America has some bizarre self-censorship of its own. They embrace violence but abhor frank sexual content. This is mostly a discussion on the cause and effect of violent media exposure, *not* whether I believe America should be used for the role model of how to run a society. In many cases I don't, but each nation has good and bad points to extract from its culture (of course, those shift depending upon your own background). :)
M.Schwekutsch wrote in message <66sc4q$c4...@www.3dfx.com>... >That's the point. It seems that the BJPS doesn't like ID Software. Think >about the star trek:borg movie. The same kind of aliens (with human >bodyparts) as in quake. The star trek crew (good guys) is trying to kill >them all ( at least). No Problem for the BJPS. As far as I know, even 13 >year alod boys were allowed to watch this movie. Splatter and >hardcore-violence movies are free for adults, too, but not the quake 2 game. >Silly censorship...
It's mostly adult ignorance and bias against computer and videogame entertainment as legitimate media. They see a game on a PC, they think "videogames=kids". They likely can't just accept the fact that PC/Videogame entertainment is, and *should* be reaching a wider audience and you can't treat it like it's a pop-up book anymore.
<Michael.Schwekut...@rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: >Quake 2 will be available in several stores in germany within a few days. >The stores have to sell it "under the table" (?), and will ask you to proove >that you are at least 18 years old. No advertising allowed... >It'll cost about 79,- DM
>Ciao >Michael
>Georg Meyer schrieb in Nachricht <34907675.837...@news.3dfx.com>... >>It seems that Quake 2 will never be out in Germany. So what is the >>solution ? get it at warez ? I hope not ! >>But it is strange to see some other titles like Jedi Knight being sold >>very well. So what is the reason that Quake 2 is not out in Germany >>though in other european countries the people are playing it ?
thanks for answering my question ! You were the only person not talking about political correctness. I didn't want to start a discussion about living in Germany or not :-( I think people should not judge Germans (or Germany) knowing NOTHING about Germany. For my part, I do not know more about America than i learned in movies <I> :-)
I hope i will get Q2 in any store here in Hamburg, but i talked with a game trader. He didn't know nothing about the situation. He was thinking to visit Denmark and get some copies (originals) there to sell them here.
Dave Glue schrieb in Nachricht <66smg0$fp...@www.3dfx.com>...
>>e.g. in school. There is good reason to assume that this results in an >>increased willingness of the kids to use violence to solve their problems.
>Why is their "good reason"? Because you "assume" there is?
Because children learn by watching their environment. If they repeatedly are demonstrated that e.g. heroes in movies or other children in school are able to solve problems using violence they will adapt to this in some way.
>level of education, etc. What I'm saying is that it's ridiculously >simplistic to point to a violent image on a screen, then make the leap of >faith to assume that if a kid is exposed to that, he will act it out.
Nobody is saying this. The point is that the increasing acceptance of violence in general everywhere in our society influences kids in subtle ways. Video games are a part of this general phenomenon.
>>American jumps up and starts accusing Germany of censorship or violation >>of human rights or similar nonsense. >>It is censorship, plain and simple.
No it´s not. No governmental institution was involved in the decision that Quake 2 will not be officially distributed in Germany. Activision voluntaryly decided to take this step because the USK (a rating board installed by a consortium of software distributors in Germany) wouldn´t give the game a rating.
"Fiffy" <fi...@nospam.com> wrote: >Because children learn by watching their environment. If they repeatedly >are demonstrated that e.g. heroes in movies or other children in school are >able >to solve problems using violence they will adapt to this in some way.
There is no scientific evidence to support this theory.
>>Because children learn by watching their environment. If they repeatedly >>are demonstrated that e.g. heroes in movies or other children in school are >>able >>to solve problems using violence they will adapt to this in some way.
>There is no scientific evidence to support this theory.
This argument reminds me a lot of sales people from the tobacco industry who still insist that smoking doesn´t harm your health because there is no "scientific evidence".
"Fiffy" <fi...@nospam.com> wrote: >>>Because children learn by watching their environment. If they repeatedly >>>are demonstrated that e.g. heroes in movies or other children in school are >>>able >>>to solve problems using violence they will adapt to this in some way.
>>There is no scientific evidence to support this theory. >This argument reminds me a lot of sales people from the tobacco industry who >still insist that smoking doesn´t harm your health because there is no >"scientific evidence".
I don't know why it should - there is TONS of scientific evidence that smoking harms your health. That is simply not the case for the "violent imagery causes violent behaviour" theory. I've read the research. Totaly inconclusicve.
But hey, why let scientific evidence (on in this case the total lack thereof) stand in the way of a theory that gives you a great excuse to suppress people's rights?
>But hey, why let scientific evidence (on in this case the total lack >thereof) stand in the way of a theory
How can a lack of evidence stand in the way of a theory if there is also no evidence for the contrary? BTW, if you think everything can be based on "scientific evidence" you are quite naive. There are many topics where science fails just because of the pure complexity of the problem. This is especially true for non-exact sciences like sociology.
>that gives you a great excuse to suppress people's rights?
You clearly know next to nothing about Germany. Also there is more than enough to worry about in your own country, Joe.
"Fiffy" <fi...@nospam.com> wrote: >How can a lack of evidence stand in the way of a theory if there is also no >evidence for the contrary?
So what's your point? That we should endorse censorship just because something *might* be damaging, even though we've studied it long and hard and found no proof that it actually is damaging?
>BTW, if you think everything can be based on >"scientific evidence" you are quite naive.
Do you have fun constructing straw-man arguments like the above? Good way to avoid talking about the issues at hand I guess. Unless, of course, you have some method of acquiring sociological knowledge that has proven more effective than scientific enquiry (i.e., since science is the *best* tool we have, especially when it comes to debunking eroneous assumptions).
What was it Huxley said at the end of the first great debate on Darwin's writings on evolution? Something about how he'd rather be descended from an ape than from a brilliant man who got invoilved in scientific questions about which he knew nothing.
>So what's your point? That we should endorse censorship just because >something *might* be damaging
Sigh. As I have pointed out time and time again, there is no censorship. But yes, I think we should keep excessively violent material from kids (i.e. people under 18 years) just because it *might* be damaging, just as we keep porn from kids although there is no scientific proof that it harms them.
>I know that they banned a harmless computer game.
No they didn´t. Quake 2 can be legally bought by adults in Germany. Since you are so focused on scientific methods, you should at least try to get your facts right before entering a discussion.
:No they didn´t. Quake 2 can be legally bought by adults in Germany. Since you :are so focused on scientific methods, you should at least try to get your :facts right before entering a discussion. :
"Fiffy" <fi...@nospam.com> wrote: >But >yes, I think we should keep excessively violent material from kids (i.e. >people under 18 years) just because it *might* be damaging, just as we keep >porn from kids although there is no scientific proof that it harms them.
True, but that's not what's happened here - unless the reports here are mistaken, Quake 2 can't be sold at ALL in Germany.
Historically, the Dutch and Portuguese were the first to start the massive buildup of slave trade from Africa. 'American' slave trade was almost entirely Dutch-based before becoming independent.
Not that I'm claiming American innocense, i'm just pointing out your historical inaccuracy.
Öllerer wrote in message <3491288D.5...@w3d.de>... >> As if violence is *caused* by lack of censorship - absurd! For gawd >> sake, the Americans strong belief in free speech is their best >> quality.
>> Joe
>You speak like a religious fanatic! In history many wars are started by >'gods will'! In every religion! >I mean the americans (surely not all) speak of freedom and equally for >the people, but who discriminated the black ones in the past (and it's >not completely over!)? That's my opinion.
>>yes, I think we should keep excessively violent material from kids (i.e. >>people under 18 years) just because it *might* be damaging, just as we keep >>porn from kids although there is no scientific proof that it harms them.
>True, but that's not what's happened here - unless the reports here >are mistaken, Quake 2 can't be sold at ALL in Germany.
NO! I live in Germany. Quake2 can be bought at all shops as import. From USA or UK. So we can buy and play it. But there will be no GERMAN Version (no german manual and stuff). That's all.
fritz-scho...@netcologne.de (Fritz Schober) wrote: >NO! I live in Germany. Quake2 can be bought at all shops as import. >From USA or UK. So we can buy and play it. But there will be no >GERMAN Version (no german manual and stuff). That's all.
> There is no doubt that the amount of violence that kids are exposed to has > risen dramatically in the last few decades. Of course this does not only > concern video games, but also TV, movies and everyday experience > e.g. in school. There is good reason to assume that this results in an > increased willingness of the kids to use violence to solve their problems.
> Also it is quite annoying that everytime when a game or something is > affected by the German laws for protection of the youth, some ignorant > American jumps up and starts accusing Germany of censorship or violation > of human rights or similar nonsense. And this is coming from a country > where even harmless movies like "Basic Instinct" are censored because > of some mild sexual content ...
Not so long ago, Holland had an unwilling taste of the way Germans do things. As a result, they have a very different attitude on censorship to the Germans. Sadly I find the argument that Germans censor to protect their kids totally unbelievable. Just listen to the Germans excuse themselves over the persecution of Scientologists. However, thankfully they will find the new freedoms of the Internet, including net-Quake II, hard to suppress.
mark perkins schrieb in Nachricht <01bd0c0f$6f57a6e0$fa349...@sheba.demon.co.uk>...
>Not so long ago, Holland had an unwilling taste of the way Germans do >things. As a result, they have a very different attitude on censorship to >the Germans.
I live near the German/Dutch border and I have many friends from Holland. Fortunately most Dutch people are very nice persons and don´t judge today´s Germans for things their grand parents did more than half a century ago.
>Sadly I find the argument that Germans censor to protect their >kids totally unbelievable. Just listen to the Germans excuse themselves >over the persecution of Scientologists. However, thankfully they will find >the new freedoms of the Internet, including net-Quake II, hard to suppress.
