Re: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: matrilineal comments
Tony Hoskins
their
own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line."
Matrilineal lineages, though fascinating, can be frustrating. My own
certainly is - back a mere 7 generations to a certain Mary (Evans ?)
Miles (bc 1765), of St Mellons, Gwent, and Llandeyrn, Glamorgan. I envy
my father - his goes back nicely 12 generations to Mary (---) Osborne,
wife (married in 1652) of Jeremiah Osborne, of New Haven, Connecticut.
But my friend Elisabeth Prinzessin zu Ysenburg wins the prize among
people I know. Hers goes back to NN von Aspermont, wife of Rudolf II
Graf von Werdenberg-Sargans (died aft 18 March 1323).
For sheer American interest, my distant cousin Irina Nelidow is
noteworthy. Her mother Dorothy Gordon (King) Nelidow (1895-1966), was
daughter of Annie Mackenzie (Coats) King, daughter of Sarah
(Auchincloss) Coats, daughter of Elizabeth (Buck) Auchincloss, daughter
of Susannah (Manwaring) Buck, daughter of Martha (Saltonstall)
Manwaring, daughter of Rebecca (Winthrop) Saltonstall, daughter of Anne
(Dudley) Winthrop, daughter of Rebecca (Tyng) Dudley.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
mj...@btinternet.com
"Tony Hoskins" schrieb:
> "I wonder if some of the 'regulars' would be willing to comment on
> their
> own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line."
>
> Matrilineal lineages, though fascinating, can be frustrating. My own
> certainly is - back a mere 7 generations to a certain Mary (Evans ?)
> Miles (bc 1765), of St Mellons, Gwent, and Llandeyrn, Glamorgan. I envy
> my father - his goes back nicely 12 generations to Mary (---) Osborne,
> wife (married in 1652) of Jeremiah Osborne, of New Haven, Connecticut.
You're lucky - I can only go back five, less than 200 years. That's
still one more than my patrilineal line, though. Thank goodness in
between there has been more than enough to keep me busy.
MAR
Douglas Richardson
My matrilineal line goes into Germany near Hanover back to the 1680's,
when the parish records commence.
I guess that's why I like sauerkraut and a good beer.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Todd A. Farmerie
> their
> own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line."
> Matrilineal lineages, though fascinating, can be frustrating. My own
[snip]
> For sheer American interest, my distant cousin Irina Nelidow is
> noteworthy. Her mother Dorothy Gordon (King) Nelidow (1895-1966), was
> daughter of Annie Mackenzie (Coats) King, daughter of Sarah
> (Auchincloss) Coats, daughter of Elizabeth (Buck) Auchincloss, daughter
> of Susannah (Manwaring) Buck, daughter of Martha (Saltonstall)
> Manwaring, daughter of Rebecca (Winthrop) Saltonstall, daughter of Anne
> (Dudley) Winthrop, daughter of Rebecca (Tyng) Dudley.
(I guess this will at least keep me from commenting on the naming of the
State of Delaware.)
mt = Mary [Goode (probably apocryphal)], wife of Samuel Hurlbut, m. ca.
1668, lived Wethersfield, Conn.
Y = Hans Jurg Formarя, d. 1695, Cocheren, Moselle, France.
XY (alternativing male/female) = Isabel, wife of James Beard, b. ca.
1735, lived Northampton Co., Pa.
taf
Kelsey Williams
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> > "I wonder if some of the 'regulars' would be willing to comment on
> > their
> > own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line."
>
> > Matrilineal lineages, though fascinating, can be frustrating. My own
>
> [snip]
>
> > For sheer American interest, my distant cousin Irina Nelidow is
> > noteworthy. Her mother Dorothy Gordon (King) Nelidow (1895-1966), was
> > daughter of Annie Mackenzie (Coats) King, daughter of Sarah
> > (Auchincloss) Coats, daughter of Elizabeth (Buck) Auchincloss, daughter
> > of Susannah (Manwaring) Buck, daughter of Martha (Saltonstall)
> > Manwaring, daughter of Rebecca (Winthrop) Saltonstall, daughter of Anne
> > (Dudley) Winthrop, daughter of Rebecca (Tyng) Dudley.
>
> (I guess this will at least keep me from commenting on the naming of the
> State of Delaware.)
>
> mt = Mary [Goode (probably apocryphal)], wife of Samuel Hurlbut, m. ca.
> 1668, lived Wethersfield, Conn.
>
>
> XY (alternativing male/female) = Isabel, wife of James Beard, b. ca.
> 1735, lived Northampton Co., Pa.
>
> taf
Curious. For me it would be:
mt = Nadejda (------) Shevchenko, b. ca. 1881-82, Ukraine; d. 1943,
Kazakhstan.
Y = John Slayden, immigrated to Virginia ca. 1695, d. 1727x1734,
Hanover County, Virginia.
XY = Charles C. King, b. 1796, Virginia, d. after 1880, Weakley County,
Tennessee.
Kelsey J. Williams
Ginny Wagner
When you say your matrilineal line goes back, do you mean
that you have birth certificates, marriage licenses and
death certificates for everyone back that far, or do you
mean that there has been research published back that far?
Best,
Ginny Wagner
Nathaniel Taylor
"Kelsey Williams" <zetetes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>
> > mt = Mary [Goode (probably apocryphal)], wife of Samuel Hurlbut, m. ca.
> > 1668, lived Wethersfield, Conn.
> >
> > Y = Hans Jurg Formarя, d. 1695, Cocheren, Moselle, France.
> >
> > XY (alternativing male/female) = Isabel, wife of James Beard, b. ca.
> > 1735, lived Northampton Co., Pa.
>
> mt = Nadejda (------) Shevchenko, b. ca. 1881-82, Ukraine; d. 1943,
> Kazakhstan.
>
> Y = John Slayden, immigrated to Virginia ca. 1695, d. 1727x1734,
> Hanover County, Virginia.
>
> XY = Charles C. King, b. 1796, Virginia, d. after 1880, Weakley County,
> Tennessee.
Is there any biological significance to the 'XY' (gender alternating)
line, or is this just an exercise? I just noticed that for me it gets
to one of those gateway American colonists with medieval ancestry:
Elizabeth Stratton, daughter of John Stratton & Anne Derehaugh, who came
to Salem with her mother about 1639. The strict XY ends with her
father's mother, Dorothy Nichols, fl. 1580s, wife of Thomas Stratton of
Shotley, Suffolk (he was buried 29 Mar 1596).
Y = Richard Taylor, of Old Rappahannock County, Virginia, by 1663; d.
1679.
mt = Adelheid Siemans, immigrant to New York City (presumably from
Germany) by 1863; d. 16 November 1905, Brookline, Massachusetts. Her
father's name was Johann Siemans, but I do not know her mother's name
nor whether her parents also immigrated.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm
John P. Ravilious
An interesting exercise. Unfortunately, unlikely to get us to
any medieval individuals, unless someone named Mountbatten, Windsor or
Dunbar chimes in.
As for my own lines, of the three choices given the matrilineal
trumps the other two:
mt = Chierstin Persdotter, born/christened 1742, Kraxhult, Kristdala
parish, Kalmar län, Sverige [Sweden]; d. 3 November 1826, Ingatorp
parish, Jonkoping län, Sverige [Sweden]. 5th Great-grandmother.
Y = William Ravilous, b. Tonbridge, Kent, 2 Jan 1780; d. after 7 Jan.
1816, probably Tonbridge, Kent. 3rd Great-grandfather.
XY = Laura (Blond) Seay, b. probably Belize, British Honduras [now
Belize], m. 3 May 1883 to John Thomas Seay (originally of Madison Co.,
Alabama), d. 27 December 1928, Belize, British Honduras.
Great-grandmother.
* Concerning the last of which, as we all have brick walls
somewhere, this one just happens to rise up in one of the more recent
colonies. Should anyone have any familiarity with the Blond, Ambrister
or Usher families of British Honduras (now Belize), I'd be delighted to
hear of same.
As someone else had mentioned, there are a few other lines which
run back some additional generations. Maybe if we change the sequence
to something like XYYYXXYYYYYYXY, I can make it a little more
interesting.....
Cheers,
John
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
> In article <1138233053....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Kelsey Williams" <zetetes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> >
> > > mt = Mary [Goode (probably apocryphal)], wife of Samuel Hurlbut, m. ca.
> > > 1668, lived Wethersfield, Conn.
> > >
> > > Y = Hans Jurg Formarÿ, d. 1695, Cocheren, Moselle, France.
Don Stone
> Dear Nat, Tony, Ginny, Doug, Kelsey, et al.,
>
> An interesting exercise. Unfortunately, unlikely to get us to
> any medieval individuals, unless someone named Mountbatten, Windsor or
> Dunbar chimes in.
mt: (presumably) Old Mother Hubbard, mother of Mary (Hubbard) Cain, the
latter of whom is said to have lived from 1798 to 1859.
Y: William atte Stone, d. 1430 or 1431; descent charted at
http://www.donstonetech.com/StoneChart.
-- Don Stone
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for those details. I'm not familiar with Old Mother
Hubbard, but the Stone ancestry appears rock solid.
This also is where we have a definite link I can put my finger on.
1. Deacon Gregory Stone = 2) Lydia _____
2. Sarah Stone = Joseph Merriam
3. Mary Merriam = Isaac Stearns
4. Miriam Stearns = Thomas Patten
5. Thomas Patten = Anna Woolson
6. Thomas Patten = Mary Roberdeau
7. Selina Blair Patten = Rev. John Thomas Wheat
8. Selina Patten Wheat = Dr. John Seay
9. John Thomas Seay = Laura Blond
10. Roberdeau Samuel Seay = Alice Emelia Olson
11. Tilly Seline Seay = C. Frederick Ravilious
12. John P. Ravilious
It appears thereby we are 10th cousins. Likely there are other
Stone descendants amongst the list, although Deacon Gregory Stone's
progeny is likely not that spread around. I assume Rev. John Lathrop
is still the Kilroy of American colonial genealogy [need to check with
JSG on that].
Cheers,
John
Nathaniel Taylor
"John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com> wrote:
> Dear Don,
>
> Thanks for those details. I'm not familiar with Old Mother
> Hubbard, but the Stone ancestry appears rock solid.
> This also is where we have a definite link I can put my finger on.
>
> 1. Deacon Gregory Stone = 2) Lydia _____
> 2. Sarah Stone = Joseph Merriam
> 3. Mary Merriam = Isaac Stearns
> 4. Miriam Stearns = Thomas Patten
> 5. Thomas Patten = Anna Woolson
> 6. Thomas Patten = Mary Roberdeau
> 7. Selina Blair Patten = Rev. John Thomas Wheat
> 8. Selina Patten Wheat = Dr. John Seay
> 9. John Thomas Seay = Laura Blond
> 10. Roberdeau Samuel Seay = Alice Emelia Olson
> 11. Tilly Seline Seay = C. Frederick Ravilious
> 12. John P. Ravilious
>
> It appears thereby we are 10th cousins. Likely there are other
> Stone descendants amongst the list, although Deacon Gregory Stone's
> progeny is likely not that spread around. I assume Rev. John Lathrop
> is still the Kilroy of American colonial genealogy [need to check with
> JSG on that].
Don't know about Lothrop, but as you can see from the bottom link in my
.sig, both my wife's parents descend from Stone. They're up there in
Kilroy factor.
> Don Stone wrote:
> >
> > mt: (presumably) Old Mother Hubbard, mother of Mary (Hubbard) Cain, the
> > latter of whom is said to have lived from 1798 to 1859.
Was she the one with the bare cupboard? Being descended from a nursery
rhyme hero is pretty cool; fits well with the Dick Whittington thread.
Don Stone
> Don't know about Lothrop, but as you can see from the bottom link in my
> .sig, both my wife's parents descend from Stone. They're up there in
> Kilroy factor.
Martin Hollick is another Stone descendant on this list. Incidentally, both
Simon and Gregory Stone immigrated to Massachusetts in 1635.
>>Don Stone wrote:
>>
>>>mt: (presumably) Old Mother Hubbard, mother of Mary (Hubbard) Cain, the
>>>latter of whom is said to have lived from 1798 to 1859.
>
> Was she the one with the bare cupboard? Being descended from a nursery
> rhyme hero is pretty cool; fits well with the Dick Whittington thread.
I'm afraid my tongue was in my cheek on this one. According to _The
Annotated Mother Goose_ by William and Ceil Baring-Gould, Old Mother Hubbard
was a stock nursery-tale character; no specific historical basis for this
character is proposed. The poem that is well-known today appeared in 1805
in _The Comic Adventures of Old Mother Hubbard and Her Dog_, by Sarah
Catherine Martin, an early love of Prince William Henry, afterwards William IV.
-- Don Stone
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Is there any biological significance to the 'XY' (gender alternating)
> line, or is this just an exercise?
This is the line from which you get (statistically) more of your X
chromosome(s) than any other. A woman gets one X from her mother,
representing 50/50 of each maternal grandparent, while she gets the
other from the father, but it comes entirely from the paternal
grandmother (the paternal grandfather providing the father with his Y- a
man gets his sole X exclusively from his mother). Thus, any line with
two successive male generations contributes nothing to the X of their
descendant, while for all other lines, the percent contribution is
divided in half for each female generation, but remains undivided for
each male generation. The line with the most male generations, without
two in a row, is that which alternates, having twice the contribution
per generation as the all-female line.
Curiously, this line differs for siblings of different genders - mine is
Isabel, wife of James Baird, b. ca. 1730, or Northampton Co. Pa., my
sister's is Joh. Heinrich Kauffer, b. ca. 1730, somewhere in Germany.
taf
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
mt=Marie J. de Reine, m. (prior to 1766, probably ca. 1763) Joseph Masson
Y=Joos (Judocus) Mommaerts, (Brabant) m. 20 Feb. 1635 Anthonette de Pauw,
(161111-4 Aug. 1650).
XY=Margaret Eggleson, m. John Brown
YX=Anna Wankova (Vanek), m., (pre-1834), Matthias Vondras, (Austria-Hungary,
currently, The Czech Republic, [the Sudetenland]).
Ford
'It is indeed desirable to be well descended; but the glory belongs to our
ancestors.'
-- Plato
lma...@att.net
Y: Hirschel Levy
(Jewish, no surname)
a resident of Schnaittach, Germany, circa 1740.
mt: Marie Degraux, wife of Jean Brachot,
living in 1690s at Montignies sur Sambre, Hainaut, Belgium
XY: Edmund Tarver,
born 1815, somewhere in northern Gloucestershire, England
(son of John Tarver)
and died in Kansas 1898.
Leslie
Vicki Perry
I just checked my XYXY... line and, would you believe it, I ended up with
the illegitimate female ancestor that I spent hours looking through
overseers accounts for last time I was in Oxfordshire Record Office, trying
(to no avail) to find out who her father was! If anyone's interested, she is
Elizabeth Stonill, bap 23 March 1783 in Watlington (England), the daughter
of Maria (who incidently married a few months later and appears to have
produced another of my ancestors).
My X ends fairly late on in Ireland: Edward Perry, who lived in Liscannor Co
Clare in the 19th century.
Vicki
Bob Turcott
To all, I have been researching my surname Turcott, for quite some time. I
have read a few heraldic
books that indicate the Turcott surname was applied to a crusader, as far as
I know, there are quite a few origins and variations of the Turk, Turc &
Leturc surname. I have known one researcher Tony Turk that has researched
some variants of the turk surname and this is his website, but I think my
origin may be different from the lines he is researching.
http://www.turkgenealogy.com/
However, is there someone out there that knows about crusaders and some
surnames assocaited with them, below is one paper about one possible origin.
I read one book authored by johnathan riley smith about crusaders but really
could not find any such referance to the turcott surname, but found some
referance to turks, but I still dont think that a Turcott originating out of
france would
be of such turkish root.
The Turcott Surname in France
Turcott of french surnames, it has been said that they came into existance
around the year 1000 and were mostly confined to the nobility. The
employment of surnames in England in the eleventh century was one of the
results of the Norman (French) conquest of 1066 which was carried out under
William the Conquerer.
The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is
of nickname origin, that is, descriptive of some personal or physical
characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the
name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn
comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a turk". Turk was a term used
to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the
surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.
The crusades (from Latin "crux" meaning "Cross") were a series of religious
wars waged by the cristian nations of Europe during the eleventh, twelfth
and thirteenth centuries for the recovery of the holy land from the Moslems.
This surname can also be found in England, probably introduced there during
the third crusade (1187-1192). In fact, the earliest written record of this
surname is English from 1188 when one Ricardus Filius (son of) Torke is
recorded in the "pipe rolls" of Yorkshire England.
In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of
Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in the "subsidy rolls" of
Sussex in 1296.
Coat of Arms/Blazon of ARMS:
Gules, on a chief argent the head of the turk sable, with a head band
argent.
Translation: The head of the turk acts as a pun on the origin of this
surname. Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military
Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White, symbolizes the moon and
denotes Purity and Obedience.
Crest: The head of the turk.
Origin: France
Source: The Historical Research Center, Inc. issued to me on 23rd Feb 1993
Registration no#10439
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Nathaniel Taylor
bobtu...@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
<...>
> The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and LeTurc is
> of nickname origin, that is, descriptive of some personal or physical
> characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this instance, the
> name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc" which in turn
> comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a turk". Turk was a term used
> to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is non-Christians. Thus the
> surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied to a crusader.
<...>
> This surname can also be found in England, probably introduced there during
> the third crusade (1187-1192). In fact, the earliest written record of this
> surname is English from 1188 when one Ricardus Filius (son of) Torke is
> recorded in the "pipe rolls" of Yorkshire England.
>
> In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of
> Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in the "subsidy rolls" of
> Sussex in 1296.
I would be hesitant to accept this derivation of your surname.
'Turcott' as such does not appear in P. H. Reaney's authoritative
_Dictionary of English Surnames_, but the second element of the name
suggests that it is not a nickname, originally, but a place-name, in
English, with '-cot' or '-cote' being a cottage or dwelling (as in the
surname 'Prescott', etc.). The vowel in the first element may have
shifted, and it is possible that it derives from some element 'ter-',
'tur-', or 'tor-', that may have nothing to do with the documented
epithet 'Turk'. Reaney notes that 'Turk' itself is of disputed origins:
he reports that NED just assigns the word continental (i.e. French)
origins, coming into England as a nickname around the time of the third
crusade, but Reaney says that it is found in London a half century
earlier. And there are some documented instances of it as a well before
the crusades: e.g. the 'Turch' in Cambridgeshire Domesday Book (1080s),
which Reaney reports another author explaining as a hypochoristic pet
form of the Scandinavian Germanic name 'Thorkel'. Reaney does admit
that most of the documented surnames (burgeoning in the 13th c.) of the
form 'le Turk' or 'fitz Turk', etc., were probably derived from the
continental import. But at any rate, I would doubt that the later
surname 'Turcott' necessarily has any relation to earlier instances of
'Turk', whether the latter derives from a continental or Germanic name.
Nathaniel Taylor
Exactly. My daughters share my XY line, but my son's XY goes only back
to Cynthia (surname unknown, but perhaps a Whiting), widow in 1828 of
Isaac Dudley, of North Haven, Connecticut. I believe they are the
parents of Whiting Dudley, b. in North Haven in 1823, but I am not sure.
Nathaniel Taylor
Don Stone <don....@verizon.net> wrote:
> Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
>
> >>Don Stone wrote:
> >>
> >>>mt: (presumably) Old Mother Hubbard, mother of Mary (Hubbard) Cain, the
> >>>latter of whom is said to have lived from 1798 to 1859.
> >
> > Was she the one with the bare cupboard? Being descended from a nursery
> > rhyme hero is pretty cool; fits well with the Dick Whittington thread.
>
> I'm afraid my tongue was in my cheek on this one. According to _The
> Annotated Mother Goose_ by William and Ceil Baring-Gould, Old Mother Hubbard
> was a stock nursery-tale character; no specific historical basis for this
> character is proposed. The poem that is well-known today appeared in 1805
> in _The Comic Adventures of Old Mother Hubbard and Her Dog_, by Sarah
> Catherine Martin, an early love of Prince William Henry, afterwards William
> IV.
I wasn't fooled! But I do remember a fierce on-line debate about where
the chestnut tree was, under which the village blacksmith stood, with
some genealogy types some years back.
Tompkins, M.L.
LeTurc is of nickname origin, that is, descriptive of some personal or
physical characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this
instance, the name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc"
which in turn comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a turk".
Turk was a term used to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is
non-Christians. Thus the surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied
to a crusader.>>
That last sentence leaps a sizeable logic gap. I can believe that the
surname Turk is connected to the middle eastern Turks (or middle eastern
people generally), but it isn't obvious that it must therefore be a
nickname given to a crusader. It could equally well be a nickname given
to a man with a swarthy complexion, or perhaps with personality traits
that were thought to be characteristic of Turks.
I have looked Turk up in Reaney and Wilson's Dictionary of English
surnames. The format there is to give a number of early occurrences of
each surname and then to comment on them.
The earliest example is an individual in the Cambridgeshire Domesday
Book called Turch, Turcus. This early date rather puts paid to the
crusader idea.
There are several examples from the 12th and 13th centuries, among them
Ricardus filius Torke and Ricardus filius Turk from Yorks in 1188 and
Kent in 1205 respectively, which suggest that it was a personal name
rather than a nickname - though there are also two examples in le Turc,
le Turch, so perhaps it has multiple origins.
In their commentary Reaney and Wilson say that the Domesday Book name is
explained by von Feilitzen as the Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with
an A-N loss of the -ell, and that it seems clear that it was also used
as a pet form of the Scandinavian name.
However they also say that most of the surnames appear to be nicknames
from Old French 'turc' (Turk), a word which NED suggests was introduced
into England during the 3rd crusade (1187-92), but which is found as a
nickname in London half a century earlier.
But that is the surname Turk - is Turcott the same surname? I don't
really see that is has to be - it looks rather as if its origin is an
English place-name. I don't know of any place called Turcott or Turcote
or something like that, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't one.
-cott and -cote are common place-name elements (meaning 'cottage(s)' or
the place where the cottagers dwell) but they tended to be the names of
small, marginal settlements (cottagers were villagers who had a house
but very little land, or none at all, and scraped a living working for
others), some of which have not survived, or if they have survived
remain small and don't appear in gazetteers.
Alternatively Turcott might be a pet form of the personal name Turk, or
even of Thurkel - pet forms were often made by adding -et, sometimes to
a shortened form of the name.
Matt Tompkins
Tony Hoskins
bringing it up. Much to my surprise and interest, my own XY line takes
me to early 17th century Friesland, Netherlands.
Tony Hoskins' umbilical, agnate, and XY recap:
mt (umbilical):
MARY (EVANS ?) MILES (bc 1765), of St Mellons, Gwent and Llanedeyrn,
Glamorganshire, Wales. Wife of THOMAS MILES.
-----------------------------------------
Y (agnate):
JOHN HODGKINSON (bc 1613), of Preston, Lancashire, England.
----------------------------------
XY:
NN (---) DOUW (b say 1630), of Leuwarden, Frielsand, Netherlands. Wife
of JAN DOUW.
Bob Turcott
Matt,
My answers below
>From: "Tompkins, M.L." <ml...@leicester.ac.uk>
>To: "Bob Turcott" <bobtu...@msn.com>
>Subject: RE: crusaders
>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:01:53 -0000
>
>Hello Bob,
>
>Sorry - I sent my first reply you alone, not to the list, accidentally, so
>I re-sent it to the list shortly afterwards.
>
>I think we have to be careful to distinguish between the surnames Turk and
>Turcott. There's no strong etymological reason why they should have the
>same origins, unless perhaps (as I suggested) Turcott may have originated
>as Turket, ie a diminutive form of Turk (itself a diminutive form of the
>Anglo-Norse name Thurkell). But an origin in an English place-name seems
>the most probable.
>
>So I don't think any of the origins listed below are very likely to be
>relevant to your surname, since they relate to a different name.
>
I really think Turcott possibly could be a pet form of Turc or Le Turc or
shortened version of Turc
but not certain and without a doubt be of french origin. but further
investigation in this area will
be done to be sure.
>
>Even if Turcott did originate as Turket, none of the derivations below
>would apply to it. Derivation 7 because it is a modern (post 1930!)
>Turkish surname; derivations 1, 2 and 4 because they are German; and
>derivations 3, 5 and 6 because Turket would be a personal name, not a
>nickname or a description of someone's place of origin. But that does not
>matter because if Turcott does originate as a pet form of the Anglo-Norse
>personal name Thurkel, then that is another, new, derivation. You could
>call it derivation 8.
>
>I'm afraid coats of arms seldom provide guidance to a surname's origins -
>that is an old wive's tale. It is usually the other way round - the coat
>of arms derives from the surname. Medieval people loved what they called
>canting arms - arms which contained a pun on the family's surname. It
>isn't surprising that a family called Turk couldn't resist using a Turk's
>Head as their arms.
>
some cases, but not all anything is worth a shot.
>
>But are you sure that these are the arms of a family called Turcott, not
>one called Turk? And if yes, are you sure that they are arms used by your
>Turcott family, not a different Turcott family? I've never heard of The
>Historical research Institute, Inc, but it sounds suspiciously like one of
>these bucket shops which sell meaningless certificates, with fake
>statements about a surname's origins and heraldry.
>
Bucket/butcher shops, yes indeed a good possible name for them!!!!!
not certain thats why I am checking with the experts here for help, it is
quite possible they are fake
they may not be for my family, keep in mind sometimes arms were given to
groups of crusaders with variants, however, for my family specifically,
probably not, But I will investage all possibilties.
>
>What you sometimes find in heraldry books is a statement that a Turk's Head
>(or Saracen's Head, or Blackamoor's Head) on a coat of arms is a sign that
>someone in the family had once been on crusade. This is seldom true, and a
>good book will mention it only as a mistaken belief which should not be
>given credence.
>
I am not sure if I would agree with you on this 100%, my reasoning is we
have to take into acount that there may be some very good books and very bad
french heraldic books out there and the only way to clarify is for me to get
the source book and cite the referance then decide as a group if its a good
source or not.
>
>Sorry to be a wet blanket, but this is the honest answer to your queries.
>
Honesty and accuracy is what I am looking for here, my next post I will cite
the heraldic books
that indicate the full name Turcott derived from some shortened version of
it as a crusader.
Till the next post
>
>Regards,
>
>Matt (not Tom)
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Turcott [mailto:bobtu...@msn.com]
>Sent: 26 January 2006 16:28
>To: ml...@leicester.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: crusaders
>
>Tom,
>
> However, I have seen in heraldic books mention the surname Turcott as a
>name being applied to a crusader, I will take a look and find the book I
>found it in some yaers ago at a library, I recall this mentioned in a
>french heraldic book.
>
>however Etymologists have identified the following origins:
>
>1. Derivation from a place name, e.g. from Türkwitz in Breslau, Turknwitz
>in Bohemia and Turckheim in France.
>
>2. Derivation from a natural or manmade feature near which the original
>surname bearer lived, e.g. "zum Türken" and "zum Dürken".
>
>3. Derivation from a nickname, a physical characteristic or personal
>attribute of the original bearer.
>
>4. Derivation from a patronymic such as Dietrich from Theodorich.
>
>5. Derivation from a shortened title of a "fighter against the Turks" given
>to a returned Crusader.
>
>6. Derivation from a descriptive title for a Turk who settled among
>non-Turks, i.e. "the Turk".
>
>7. Finally in 1930 Turkey required its citizens to assume a surname. Many
>assumed the surname Turk or Türk.
>
>In closing I may entertain the 2 items below as possibilties.
>
>Derivation from a nickname, a physical characteristic or personal attribute
>of the original bearer.
>
>
>Derivation from a shortened title of a "fighter against the Turks" given to
>a returned Crusader.
>
>It would be interesting in having the coat of arms that are mentioned in my
>first post examined
>by an heraldic expert to see were it leads..
>
>
>
> >From: "Tompkins, M.L." <ml...@leicester.ac.uk>
> >To: "Bob Turcott" <bobtu...@msn.com>
> >Subject: RE: crusaders
> >Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:43:30 -0000
> >
> ><<The french name Turcott and it's variants Turco, Turc, Turq, and
> >LeTurc is of nickname origin, that is, descriptive of some personal or
> >physical characteristic of the initial bearer of this surname. In this
> >instance, the name is a nickname derived from the medieval French "turc"
> >which in turn comes from the middle latin "turcus" meaning "a turk".
> >Turk was a term used to describe a Mohamadan or all infidels, that is
> >non-Christians. Thus the surname Turcott was a medieval nickname applied
> >to a crusader.>>
> >
> >
> >That last sentence leaps a sizeable logic gap. I can believe that the
> >surname Turk is connected to the middle eastern Turks (or middle eastern
> >people generally), but it isn't obvious that it must therefore be a
> >nickname given to a crusader. It could equally well be a nickname given
> >to a man with a swarthy complexion, or perhaps with personality traits
> >that were thought to be characteristic of Turks.
> >
> >I have looked Turk up in Reaney and Wilson's Dictionary of English
> >surnames. The format there is to give a number of early occurrences of
> >each surname and then to comment on them.
> >
> >The earliest example is an individual in the Cheshire Domesday Book
> >called Turch, Turcus. This early date rather puts paid to the crusader
> >idea.
> >
> >There are several examples from the 12th and 13th centuries, among them
> >Ricardus filius Torke and Ricardus filius Turk from Yorks in 1188 and
> >Kent in 1205 respectively, which suggest that it was a personal name
> >rather than a nickname - though there are also two examples in le Turc,
> >le Turch, so perhaps it has multiple origins.
> >
> >In their commentary Reaney and Wilson say that the Domesday Book name is
> >explained by von Feilitzen as the Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with
> >an Anglo-Norse loss of the -ell, and that it seems clear that it was
> >also used as a pet form of the Scandinavian name.
> >
> >However they also say that most of the surnames appear to be nicknames
> >from Old French 'turc' (Turk), a word which NED suggests was introduced
> >into England during the 3rd crusade (1187-92), but which is found as a
> >nickname in London half a century earlier.
> >
> >But that is the surname Turk - is Turcott the same surname? I don't
> >really see that is has to be - it looks rather as if its origin is an
> >English place-name. I don't know of any place called Turcott or
> >Turcote, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't one. -cott and -cote
> >are common place-name elements (meaning 'cottage(s)' or the place where
> >the cottagers dwell) but they tended to be the names of small, marginal
> >settlements (cottagers were villagers who had a house but very little
> >land, or none at all, and scraped a living working for others), some of
> >which have not survived, or if they have survived remain small and don't
> >appear in gazetteers.
> >
> >Alternatively Turcott might be a pet form of the personal name Turk, or
> >even of Thurkel - pet forms were often made by ading -et, sometimes to a
> >shortened form of the name.
> >
> >Matt Tompkins
>
>_________________________________________________________________
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Tim Powys-Lybbe
>
> To all, I have been researching my surname Turcott, for quite some
> time. I have read a few heraldic books that indicate the Turcott
> surname was applied to a crusader, as far as I know, there are quite
> a few origins and variations of the Turk, Turc & Leturc surname.
<snip>
> In 1193 one William Le (the) Turk is listed in the "pipe rolls" of
> Gloucestershire and Robert Turk is mentioned in the "subsidy rolls"
> of Sussex in 1296.
>
> Coat of Arms/Blazon of ARMS:
> Gules, on a chief argent the head of the turk sable, with a head band
> argent.
> Translation: The head of the turk acts as a pun on the origin of this
> surname.
Hardly pun but "canting arms" is the more usual description.
Anyhow the only relevant arms in Burke's compendiums "Armory" of 1844
and general Armory" of 1884 are those for a Turke of London of the time
of Ed3ward III and are:
Argent on a bend azure between two lions rampant gules three
bezants.
The much newer "Medieval Ordinary of British Arms" has these arms for
various Turks:
(Vol 3, p. 68 for various Mons and Sir Robert Turks) variations on: On
bend sinople between 2 lions 3 roundels
(Vol 2, p. 221 for The Great Turk who slew the emperor of
Constantinople); Per fess or and gules the base representing town wall
masoned with loopholes & gateway sable doors open & turned back or wall
ensigned with three turrets gules.
(vol 2, p. 412 for a William Turk, alderman and fishmonger who d. 1532)
Chevron between 3 lion's heads erased or on a chief or a griffin passant
or.
Volumes 3 and 4 have yet to be published.
> Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military
> Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White, symbolizes the moon and
> denotes Purity and Obedience.
These symbolisms are not authentic, they were probably invented in post
medieval times to humour people with not much else to do. The core of
heraldry was a need to invent some graphic design that would be easily
recognisable, either on a seal to authorise a document or in a
tournament on the apparel and armour.
> Crest: The head of the turk.
These crests of a "soldan" are very common for a wide range of families
in middle medieval times. They are not unique designs. (See Hope St
John's "Stall Plates of the Knights of the Order of the Garter
1348-1485", though it is a rare book.)
> Origin: France
> Source: The Historical Research Center, Inc. issued to me on 23rd Feb
> 1993 Registration no#10439
I have no idea on what basis this firm told you about these arms. As
you can see there are several different arms for different people named
Turk. In fact, of course, arms belong to particular families not to
names and they should have enquired what families you were descended
from. But, regrettably there are too many dealers who are more eager
to collect your money than to do a proper job.
Heraldry is bound up with genealogy. If you don't know the genealogy
of a family, you cannot say anything about their heraldry. Might I
recommend you have a look at the FAQ of the rec.heraldry newsgroup at:
http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/mfaq
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic], (or,
possibly, Danish), name, derived from Tor (Thor), which at such a time and
place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.
Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which
you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le', became
common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm socially;
much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically)
shorten their names. However, the forenames William and Robert, (which you
cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case for
these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.
Ford
Bob Turcott
see below
>From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMo...@Cox.net>
>To: "Bob Turcott" <bobtu...@msn.com>,<GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
>Subject: Re: crusaders
>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:55:56 -0400
>
>Dear Bob,
>Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic],
>(or,
>possibly, Danish), name, derived from Tor (Thor), which at such a time and
>place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.
>Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which
>you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le', became
>common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm socially;
>much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically)
>shorten their names. However, the forenames William and Robert, (which you
>cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case for
>these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.
>Ford
>
possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need
to do further
study in this area to be certain.
_________________________________________________________________
Bob Turcott
>From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: crusaders
>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:27:42 GMT
I am very hesitant for sure!!! perhaps it could come from Turc but not Turk.
possibly derived from Turc surname of france, but not Turk, The source of
the certificate
is perhaps not a very good one and to many discrepancies in the cert as
identified by others in this forum.
However, I will find the heraldic book and post it here and see if everyone
thinks the book may be in error as well.
>
>Nat Taylor
>
>a genealogist's sketchbook:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
>
>my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Todd A. Farmerie
> I mean, does the fact that my XY line ends up at the (presumably)
> Germanically-descended wife of Johannes Hoffman of Lebanon Co., PA,
> make my genetic makeup more Germanic than would normally be the case
> for a person with a single great-grandparent of completely Germanic
> descent (and with no other German lines)? Slightly more Germanic?
> Much more Germanic? Makes no difference?
>
> John Brandon wrote:
>
>>>This is the line from which you get (statistically) more of your X
>>>chromosome(s) than any other.
>>
>>never very good at science ...)
Biologically speaking, there is no direct correlation between individual
chromosomes and functions or purposes - even with the Y chromosome, you
can have one and be female by all objective criteria (except, of course,
chromosome typing), if you just have a mutation in one single gene (e.g.
TDFY - testes determining factor Y), female being the default pathway.
The X, like the autosomal chromosomes, contains an essentially random
collection of genes (about 1000) for various proteins (e.g. the 'color
receptors' for light and one of the blood-clotting factors come
immediately to mind). There is one critical criterion however -
(almost) all of the genes on the X chromosome must be able to function
alone. For autosomal chromosomes, you have two copies of each gene, and
some of them _must_ have two copies to allow appropriate ballance.
Because men only have one X, anything on the X must be able to regulate
itself as a single copy. Further, because they work as a single copy in
males, having two copies in females would confuse things, so female
cells inactivate (randomly) one or the other of their X chromosomes,
such that only one X is functional in each cell, like in males. (The
patchy coloration in cats is the most frequently cited example of this.
Brown patches might represent where one X has been inactivated, black
the other.)
As to whether this makes you more Germanic, "Germanic" is as much a
social-cultural construct as a biological one anyhow. If you want to
point to individual traits - blond hair, blue eyes, (a tendancy to
overrun neighboring countries), these would link to individual genes,
each on their own chromosome, and each segregating independently. In
terms of numbers, you would have twice as much chromosome X from your XY
ancestor than the proportion of, say, chromosome 2 that came from any
ancestor of that generation, but in a cumulative sense, given 22
autosomal chromosomes vs. one X, the difference in total gene
contribution is of little significance. Biologically speaking, this
XY-line phenomenon is really more a curiousity than something of true
biological significance.
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
> Biologically speaking, there is no direct correlation between individual
> chromosomes and functions or purposes ...
Ah. So I did not inherit my male pattern baldness--or [privily touches
his desk] relative freedom from it--from John Stratton of Shotley? I
remember hearing an old wives' tale that a man's hairline destiny is got
from his mother's father.
Todd A. Farmerie
> In article <43d9...@news.ColoState.EDU>,
> "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Biologically speaking, there is no direct correlation between individual
>>chromosomes and functions or purposes ...
Just to be clear, there are correlations between individual genes and
specific functions, and these genes are each on specific chromosomes.
What I meant is that there is not a specific chromosome that does, say
digestion, or liver function, or blood clotting, or personality -
complex traits, the multiple determining genes for which are randomly
distributed among the autosomal chromosomes and the X.
> Ah. So I did not inherit my male pattern baldness--or [privily touches
> his desk] relative freedom from it--from John Stratton of Shotley? I
> remember hearing an old wives' tale that a man's hairline destiny is got
> from his mother's father.
Were this true, all male siblings (and even maternal first cousins)
would be equally disenfranchised in the follicle department, which is
not the case.
taf
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
fascinating to see how people here have such geographically diverse
origins (relatively speaking), for the respective lines- a good
cross-section of American immigration from Europe, at least. My own mt,
XY and Y currently stem from Scotland, Jersey and Ireland respectively
(late, early and mid- 18th C in that order)- although the majority of
my ancestry is English.
R. Battle
Y-John Battle (d. 1690 VA)
mt-Elizabeth (Wener) Morse (fl. mid-1700s CT)
XY-George Bruce/Brush (fl. 1600s Middlesex Co. MA)
YX(my sisters' XY)-Jane (Evans?) Tillotson (fl. 1600s Newbury, MA)
-Robert Battle
Ginny Wagner
I am quite interested in this thread and hope to figure out
how you guys do what you do. Anyhoo, if I understand it
properly, we are dealing with our maternal line, and
maternal then paternal lines?
It is possible that the King book in an earlier post, is the
one I use by Helen Hester King and Linetta Ainsworth Daniels
about the Gorham Descendants of Plymouth Colony in New York
State and the Western Reserve. I was given my copy by my
father's mother, Oa Louise (Lawcock) Friegel Gorham in 1955,
signed by Ms. King, 12-23-1955.
mt:
Sara Ann McMillers = Spencer Cone Youmans
Georgia Ann Youmans = Horace James Hodgson
Helen Maude Hodgson = Clay David Eskridge
Norma Dean Eskridge = Creighton Johnston Gorham
Virginia Gayle Gorham
xy:
George Washington Eskridge = Sabrina
Kendel Louis Eskridge = Susannah
David Clay Eskridge = Carolyn Hall
Cashus Clay Eskridge = Nancy Ellen Dean
Clay David Eskridge = Helen Maude Hodgson
Norma Dean Eskridge = Creighton Johnston Gorham
Virginia Gayle Gorham
DAR Line:
George Squire, Sr. (1618-1691) = Ann Squire (d. 1691)
George Squire, Jr. = Ellen Wheeler
Jonathan Squire = Mary Siely
Nathaniel Squire = Sarah Higgins
Johnathan Squire, Sr. = Elizabeth Morehouse
Johnathan Squire, Jr. = Catherine Holmes
Abigail Squire = Joseph Baily Youmans
Sara Ann McMillers = Spencer Cone Youmans
Georgia Ann Youmans = Horace James Hodgson
Helen Maud Hodgson = Clay David Eskridge
Norma Dean Eskridge = Creighton Johnston Gorham
Virginia Gayle Gorham
y:
Vicomte Haimon I of Poelet = Roianteline
Vicecomte Rivallon I of Combour = Aremburgis of Puiset
Lord of Tanniere Geoffrey FitzRivallon
St. Ralph Futaye aka Ralph Gorron (1100) = Hersendis of
Mayenne, sister of Juhel
Geoffrey de Gorham (abbot 1119-1146) = Cristina [found a
Gorram married to a Cristina in the Thorney Abbey Annals
ca. 1100]
Geoffrey de Gorham, Lord of the manor of Westwick
[Gorhambury], occ. 1182
Sir Henry de Gorham [1] d. 1212 held lands in Cransley and
Flore Northamptonshire; Wingrave and Rolvesham,
Buckinghamshire in 1202 and 1208
Sir William de Gorham same lands [2] d. 1233 = Cecilia de
Sanford, d. 1251
Sir William same lands in 1233, d. 1278
Sir Hugh de Gorham same lands in 1324 (d. 1325) knight
templar and coat of arms of Hertfordshire Gorhams in Cooks
Visitations of Lincolnshire in 1562 [3]= Margery Angevin
Sir William de Gorham [4] = ?
John Gorham (about 1492 - 1588) of Glapthorne = Eliza
James Gorham = Agnes Bernington m. 1572
Ralph Gorham (1575-1639) = Margaret Stephenson (m. 1610
Oundle)
Captain John Gorham bp. Benefield 1621 = Desire Howland (m.
1643)
Shubael Gorham = Puella Hussey
Captain George Gorham = Hannah Banks
Captain George Gorham = Sarah Stephens
Frederick Gorham = Lois White
Joseph Gorham = Emily Edith King
Chester Raymond Gorham = Jane White
Arwin Everett Gorham = Sara Margaret Johnston [Balmer(?)]
Chester Arwin Gorham = Oa Louise [Lawcock - mother's maiden]
Friegel
Creighton Johnston Gorham = Norma Dean Eskridge
Virginia Gayle Gorham
[1] Grant to [Robert de Gorham?] the Abbot of St. Alban's,
and to the Monks of Tinmouth, by Edgar son of Earl
Gospatric, of the Church of Edlingham in Northumberland.
Witnessed, on the part of the Abbot, by Geoffrey de Gorham,
Phylip de Cymai, Milo son of Hubert, Nicholas Dispensator,
Robert Janito, Alexander Bachelor, Henry son of Geoffrey de
Gorham, and Geoffrey his brother, Hugh Pincerna, Roger de
Arundel, Ralph son of Ralph de Gorham, Ralph eam [sic],
Reginald brother of Uttingus, Roger Corneille, Theoderic
Purchay. Cir. 1160. [Original in the Treasury at Durham,
3, 2. Cart. Special. A. 2, with the seal of Edgar.]
[2] 1229 held Westwick 2/3 fee; Laurence de Brok 1/3 same
fee in Sheephall [I believe he or his son was married to
Damietta or Dametta Gorham], formerly held by John de
Rungeton. Was absent in Ireland paying military svs with
Juhel; mil. svs for Westwick, 1244, 1245, 1257, witness to
charters 1270, 1271, 1274.
[3] In addition to inheriting family estate, Sir Hugh was
granted a quarter of a knight's fee in lands in Churchfield,
Oundle and Warmington, Northamptonshire. In the inquisition
taken at Thropston is the following: "Hugh of Gorham holds
of the abbot of Burgh in Churchfield, Oundle, and Warmington
a quafter of a knight's fee and the abbot is mesne towards
the King ..." (Northampton Records Society, Henry of
Pytchley's Bood of Fees, Vol2, p. 120). "He also held
estates in Whaplode, Lindolnshire, in right of his wife,
Margery, sole daughter and heiress of Sir William Angevin".
(Burke's Visitation of the Seats and Arms, Vol. 2, p. 20,
1852). He was a templar to Richard II, and in 1324 was
called to Parliament. In the account books of John Fider
REeve of the abbot of Crawland for his Manor of
Wellingborough is found: "For the fodder of three horses of
Lord Hugh de Gorham ... 3. bus. of oats". He died in 1325,
at 75 years of age, leavning three sons by his wife,
Margery --- William, Thomas and Nicholas.
[4] Inherited Gorham Manor in Churchfield, near Oundle,
Norhtamptonshire, and sold it to the Bishop of Salisbury in
1332. "In or about 1339, the Gorhams sold their possessions
at Flore and at Cransley".
Re the discussion about blood, etc. it may be interesting
that my father (Gorham) was Rh- and my mother (Eskridge) Rh+
so the doctors were always concerned about some kind of
rejection factor with her pregnancies should she have a baby
who was Rh-. She did not.
The book lists the [direct] descendants of Frederick Gorham
as:
Ainsworth, Avery, Baker, Bowdish, Browne, Camp, Chapin,
Costello, Curley, Davis, Dilley, Dusenbury, Gates, Gorham,
Greene, Hawkins, Herlston, Hester, Hickox, Hunt, Joy, King,
Kriesel, Lamphere, Lawson, Lee, Loomis, Lormore, Manning,
Martin, Meyer, Miner, Padgett, Rupert, Sherman, Smith,
Spadaro, Stroud, Thompson, Tibbets, Vandeusen, Vedder,
Vroman, Welch, White, Wright
If anyone is interested, I can post the pertinent
information about the Gorhams from the Collectanea ... there
were three branches of them.
Here is a sampling: One branch stayed in Tanniere, Maine,
whose earliest grant of land to Abbey of Marmoutier, in
Tours, Church of Brece about 4 miles from Gorram in Maine in
1112 and married Hersendis de Mayenne, daughter of Walter,
Lord of Mayenne about 1090. Maurice witnessed a grant of
land to Vitalis Abbot of Savigny, dated 29 March, 1114 ...
he was alive in 1128. William, son of Ralph and Hersendis,
occurs as witness to the same grants ca 1112 and 1120;
stated in Mt. St. Michael cartulary to have married Matrida;
but William, father of Giles de Gorham is recorded
(cartulary of Savigny) to have married Matilda; the two
different names led to Coll. Top. V, p. 186 to conjecture
that they were different persons but now, they are believed
to be the same person, Coll. Top. VIII, pg. 98. Giles de
Gorham ... ?? Gilo de Garania who crossed himself in 1162??,
Sir Ralph de Gorram, grandson of Giles under seal of Sir
Ralph, a Mt. St. Michael charter of which a duplicate
without seal at St. Lo has been printed at Coll. Top. V. p.
188. Sir Robert de Gorram who has the seal Sigill' Robini
de Gorran and a secretum, third seal of S S Rob de Goran ...
Excambium [inter Robinum de Gorram, militem, et Radulphum
Abbatum et Conventum Sci Michaelis], pro masura Galterii
Fulcherii in parochia de Livare, salva ipsis grangia sua cum
placea. [1226-7].
de Gorham of St. Alban's and of Gorhambury.
1. Ralph (oc. 1100 and 1120) = Hersendie
1.1 William = Matilda
2. dotted line Brother William = ?
2.1 Geoffrey = ?
2.1.1. Geoffrey de Gorham Ld of Westwyk oc. 1164 and 1182
2.1.2. Henry de Gorham
2.2 Ralph, Lord of Sarret, oc. 1140, Herts 1160 = ?
2.2.1 Robert de Gorham, a monk of St. Albans, ca. 1161
2.2.2 dotted line to Ralph de Gorham
2.2.3 Geoffrey de Gorham, instituted to Luton ca. 1153
2.3 Robert de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans 1155-1166
3. dotted line to Geoffrey de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans,
1119-1146
4. A sister [Oliva per King] = Hugh son of Humbald, Westwyk
ca. 1130 dsp
5. Henry de Gorham, godfather of Abbot Robert, oc. ca. 1160
King says that Geoffrey sent for his brother, William, and
sister, Olivia to come to join him. He built a great hall
at Gorhambury where Humbald had been given the land by Abbot
Paul, at Lanfranc's request, and renewed by Abbot Richard
d'Albini, prior to Geoffrey's arrival. Geoffrey renewed the
land to Hugh, son of Humbald, then married his sister to
Hugh, son of Humbald ... the hall was her dowry I guess.
Olivia died without children and the property reverted to
the sons of William: Ive, Robert and Ralph.
I've cobbled things together from King's book, Keats-Rohan,
Gesta Albini, Power and Rev. George Cornelius Gorham in his
Collectanea Topigraphica entries.
I know that the first Captain John Gorham, the one who
married Desire Howland, daughter of John Howland who came
over on the Mayflower, and his father, Ralph, came over on
the Philip from a website about the Gorhams ... Loafing
Cactus, I think it was ... I don't have the particulars on
that. Another website on Cornyn or Cornwall or Corneille
says that the name has also been pronounced/spelled Goram so
there seems to be a link to Cornwall and we know there is a
link to Devon from Doomsday.
Have got a back injury so can't scan things right now, but
will be glad to post as I can, further information, if it is
helpful to anyone.
Virginia Gorham Wagner
"It is a reverend thing to see an ancient castle not in
decay; how much more to behold ancient families which have
stood against the waves and weathers of time".
--Lord Francis Bacon
Tony Hoskins
"Interesting about the XY thing, even if it is just a curio."
Perhaps one might regard XY as a sort of "genealogical mean" - smack
dab in the "middle" of our ancestry, as it is. And, I agree, the
comparison of mt, XY, and Y geographically is of much interest. For me
(respectively) South Wales, the Netherlands, and Lancashire, England.
Quite a tight little geographical perimeter, really - and increasingly
rare, as the generations roll, I suspect (emblematic of my
antique-ness?!).
Tony Hoskins
Santa Rosa, California
mj...@btinternet.com
mj...@btinternet.com schrieb:
> You're lucky - I can only go back five, less than 200 years. That's
> still one more than my patrilineal line, though. Thank goodness in
> between there has been more than enough to keep me busy.
For the sake of completeness:
Patrilineal: great-great grandfather Charles Reading (1815-1884),
illegitimate son of Charlotte Reading, a house-servant of Edmonton,
Middlesex
Matrilineal: Sarah Anderson (1825-1910), daughter of Joseph Anderson,
tailor of Middlsex; emigrated to New South Wales, 1844; her
illegitimate daughter Emma Phelps was my great-great grandmother
[please don't think my ancestry is all on the wrong side of the blanket
though!]
XY: nine generations back to Elizabeth (died 1733), first wife of
Docwra Friend (1687-1738) of Ely, Cambridgeshire. While I don't
presently know her maiden name or family, her husband's own XY ancestry
is a little more interesting, and properly mediaeval, going back a
further six generations to Thomas Hutton, JP (c1494-1552) of Dry
Drayton, Cambs - his maternal grandfather is referred to in his
father's will, but unfortunately is not named therein.
I wonder how rare it is to be able to get back beyond 1600 with either
of these three methods of ascent?
Many thanks, Tony, for this light relief, which I have found most
interesting.
Michael
Todd A. Farmerie
> xy:
> George Washington Eskridge = Sabrina
> Kendel Louis Eskridge = Susannah
> David Clay Eskridge = Carolyn Hall
> Cashus Clay Eskridge = Nancy Ellen Dean
> Clay David Eskridge = Helen Maude Hodgson
> Norma Dean Eskridge = Creighton Johnston Gorham
> Virginia Gayle Gorham
This one you start off wrong. You, (I would assume) a female, would
want to go first to your father, then his mother, her father, etc.
You asked earlier whether it was birth/death/marriage certificates or
published books. For my Y line, it is Certs back to the son of the
immigrant. He and his siblings are all named in their father's will,
and this group of names eventually allowed the group to be identified in
Europe, and church birth/death/marriage records then prove it back to
the earliest generation.
For my mt, it is a bit sketchier, if only because a good bit of it came
down to me intact, and I have not gone back to reconfirm. That being
said, I can go back to the mid-1800s with certs, family Bibles, etc.,
and with censuses a generatin earlier. Then I rely on information in a
reunion book said to have been copied from a Bible to add one
generation, then a newspaper marriage notice, then a vital record, then
a will, then vital records again, then for the next to last generation a
deduction (the vital records report the marraige of the daughter, as
child of her father, and report the marriage of the father to his wife,
and he is not known to have had any other wife), and finally a
generation from a published book that I have yet to confirm (I know the
husband's name from vital records, just not the given name of his wife).
For my alternating line, certs and Bible records back to 1800, an estate
administration, a combination of a will and a deed, and a tombstone. In
other words, with a few exceptions, it is all documented in primary
sources of one type or another, although in several cases, published
books have provided a line that was then confirmed by consulting the
appropriate contemporary documentation.
taf
Tony Hoskins
of these three methods of ascent?"
Hello Michael,
Interesting question. For me, lines trcd to the 1600s are acutally
typical, probably 85% of mylines seem to go back that far. The year 1600
proves many times and for many people to be a signifucant genealogical
divide.
Tony
Gordon Banks
Michaels, Lyndhurst, Hampshire.
My Y is John Banks, liv. 9 Jun 1754, Briercliff, Lancs.
My Mt is Jane Barnard, b. 1781, Launceston, Cornwall (age 80 in 1861
Census).
On Thu, 2006-01-26 at 00:02 -0700, Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
> >
> > Is there any biological significance to the 'XY' (gender alternating)
> > line, or is this just an exercise?
>
> This is the line from which you get (statistically) more of your X
> chromosome(s) than any other. A woman gets one X from her mother,
> representing 50/50 of each maternal grandparent, while she gets the
> other from the father, but it comes entirely from the paternal
> grandmother (the paternal grandfather providing the father with his Y- a
> man gets his sole X exclusively from his mother). Thus, any line with
> two successive male generations contributes nothing to the X of their
> descendant, while for all other lines, the percent contribution is
> divided in half for each female generation, but remains undivided for
> each male generation. The line with the most male generations, without
> two in a row, is that which alternates, having twice the contribution
> per generation as the all-female line.
>
> Curiously, this line differs for siblings of different genders - mine is
> Isabel, wife of James Baird, b. ca. 1730, or Northampton Co. Pa., my
> sister's is Joh. Heinrich Kauffer, b. ca. 1730, somewhere in Germany.
>
> taf
Gordon Banks
Gene is #8305) can trace his Y back to Orme de Davenport around 1100 in
Cheshire, based on close matches with English Davenports from various
Davenport manors in Cheshire. Rev. John Davenport also comes from that
line. Unfortunately, we can't trace the actual names of OUR Y carrier
Davenport ancestors beyond Samuel Devenport, who was in the 1790 Census
in Orange Co. NC.
The Banks DNA project hasn't helped me so far, as we seem to be a more
diverse lot. If anyone knows of any Bankses (especially English ones)
who would like to be tested, I know someone who is paying for the tests.
Gordon and Jane Kirkemo
Y= Bjorn (fl. 1590s) from Kvisle, Norway.
Mt=Elizabeth Ironside, wife of John Cowper (d. 1609), apparently from
Lincolnshire, Eng.
XY=Maria Fredericka Brinket (b. c.1816), wife of Helmuth Wagner from
Prussia.
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
trch...@sbcglobal.net
related about 8 generations back.
Everyone was in the Ohio Valley at the same time.
I also turn out to be a Brooks/Mayflower descendant-lucky I have a son
to prove this. My brother is dead. I'm probably my own cousin if you go
back far enough.
Hakes is also Hakon which takes me back to my Norse heritage....dang
Vikings-they were everywhere too!
I'm Scotch, Scotch-Irish English Norwegian & swede. All my dang
families turn in on themselves.
And what's worse-there is a genetic disease in the family.....
Trudy
Stewart Baldwin
Y: John Baldwin, of Howden in the parish of Gisburn, Yorkshire, in
1684, later of Wheatley, in Pendle Forest, Lancashire, d. 1729, m.
Bridget ____ (parents of the Quaker immigrant John Baldwin of
Lancashire and Bucks co., Pennsylvania, d. 1751, m. (2) Ann Scott).
mt: Dorothy Consitt, b. Yorkshire, d. Warren co., Iowa, 1862, m. Henry
Cartwright. As I have a plausible candidate for her mother (Rebecca
Rhodes, daughter of Dorothy Huntriss, daughter of Mary Goodill), this
would be a good place to do some DNA research of my own, if I could
only find a matrilineal descendant of Mary Goodill.
XY: John Baird, d. 1797/8, Abbeville co., SC (son of Adam Baird, whose
wife's name is unknown). My paternal grandfather's XY line (which is
still around in the person of a young great-great-grandson) goes back
(through the Quaker immigrant George Maris of Worcestershire and
Chester co., Pennsylvania) 14 generations to a William Wych living in
the late 1400's.
Stewart Baldwin
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
Subject: Re: crusaders
<snip>
> possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will need
> to do further
> study in this area to be certain.
Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter, from
'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.
Ginny Wagner
Thank you for responding to my question and for helping me
figure out how to do the xy line. It is interesting ... I
hadn't thought about trying to follow the Bender name, for
instance although that would take me back into Germany. I
wonder if there was something that happened there in the
late 19c that would encourage a migration to the U.S.
I found your answer about what you have done for your
genealogy very interesting. Do you think it was worth the
time and expense to verify it with primary source documents?
If you had it to do again, would you?
Best,
Ginny
ginny...@austin.rr.com
steven perkins
mtDNA:
Mary Ruth Ball 1927-1960 dau of
Rosa Genetta Swain 1895-1961 dau of
Mary E Kidd 1863-1900
Maliza Stephens 1822-1891
Susan Hayes, 1781 SC-1884, Fentress Co., TN
Y:
Edward Perkins, d circa 1684 New Haven, CT. IF he is the half-brother
of Rev Capt William Perkins of Topsfield, MA (as stated in a now
destroyed 18th century diary quoted in the Connecticut Magazine, vol
IX, pp 666-667) then back to John Perkins of Salford Priors,
Warwickshire, Eng d by 15 March 1541/42 when his will was proved.
Donald Lines Jacobus' mother was from this Perkins family. [1]
XY:
Abigail Pennington, b ~1798 Wilkes Co., NC d before 1855, KY or TN,
wife of Abraham Strunk. Abraham and Abigail settled in KY next to
Wells Pennington who was also from Wilkes/Ashe Cos, NC.
[1] Only 1 line of the 3 sons of Edward Perkins, John, Jonathan and
David, has been tested in the Perkins Y DNA study. Looking for direct
male descendants of Jonathan and David Perkins of New Haven to test.
Two lines from two grandsons of John Perkins have been tested and they
are 37 marker matches to each other. They are 32 marker matches to
the "Somerled" signature of the McDonalds.
--
Steven C. Perkins SCPe...@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html
Todd A. Farmerie
> I found your answer about what you have done for your
> genealogy very interesting. Do you think it was worth the
> time and expense to verify it with primary source documents?
> If you had it to do again, would you?
Yes, and Yes. First of all, it didn't cost me that much: if the family
didn't move, then all of the birth, marriage and death records are on a
single roll of microfilm. Further, much of what I detailed represents
novel information - material unknown before I found it. I am not
satisfied with simply finding out what is already known - I want what is
unknown but there to be found.
That being said, I don't trust _anything_ that has been published
without documentation. This is not just a natural skepticism, but the
voice of experience. In one medieval line, four successive generations
in the published version of the pedigree are given the wrong wife, and
one of them in the middle of the direct descent actually had no
children, his heir being his first cousin. In some of my Pennsylvania
German material, there is error after error after error (e.g. a man born
1773 is made to be a Rev. War soldier; a man said to have died in 1875
got married again in 1879) even coming from seemingly reliable sources.
One of my Mayflower lines traced through someone who was killed at the
Battle of Brandywine, and his widow remarried - then a few years later
the dead guy remarried and moved to Vermont.
Basically, if I can't document it, I can't trust it.
taf
fairt...@breathe.com
Y
William Fairthorne, husbandman of Upper Lambourn, Berkshire, d between 1553
and 20 October 1554
X
Ann Harrison, married Jophn Watson a gardener 1819 St Mary Lancaster, said
to come from near Appleby in Westmoreland
XY
John Beanland Robertshaw, a cloth dresser, b ca 1805, died 1879 Bradford
Yorkshire
father's XY
Col John Naper of Loughcrow co Meath died before July 1719
cheers
Simon
Bob Turcott
>From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMo...@Cox.net>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: crusaders
>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400
Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome
back Mr cotter!!!
You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!
>
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Nathaniel Taylor
bobtu...@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
> >From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMo...@Cox.net>
> >To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> >Subject: Re: crusaders
> >Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Bob Turcott" <bobtu...@msn.com>
> >To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
> >Subject: Re: crusaders
> >
> >
> > <snip>
> > > possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will
> > > need to do further
> > > study in this area to be certain.
> >
> >Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter,
> >from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.
> >
> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome
> back Mr cotter!!!
> You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!
Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott'
would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name
element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain
it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's
_Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on
their formation and typology.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm
Bob Turcott
>From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: crusaders
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT
Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire..
To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature for me to buy at this time.
However, I will take a look at this english dictionary, hovever the
consulatation
of a French dictionary may also be in order here.
You must understand that not all cultures elongate and shorten names in the
same manner or sequence..So further study is needed in this area, especially
when we don't have all the sources
specified here for french origins, a decision clearly cannot be made at this
time.
>
>Nat Taylor
>
>a genealogist's sketchbook:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
>
>my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm
>
_________________________________________________________________
Tompkins, M.L.
'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name element in it,
'-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. >>
It was I who suggested to Bob that Turcott might have originated as a
pet form of Turc, so I ought defend my suggestion.
Middle English commonly produced pet forms of names by first shortening
them (eg Thomas to Tom; Richard to Rick, Dick, Hick; Robert to Rob, Hob,
Dob etc) and then adding one of a list of suffixes, -kin, -el, et, -in
being the most common (thus producing, for example, Tomkin, Tomsett,
Tomlin - the last is a double suffix, Tom-el-in). This what Bob means
by an elongated version.
Reaney and Wilson said something to the effect that von Feilitzen
explained the Cambridgeshire Domesday references to Turch, Turcus, as
the Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with an A-N loss of the -ell, and
added that it seemed clear to them that Turc was used as a pet form of
the Scandinavian name.
If so, then it is quite possible that the pet form Turc-et also existed,
and gave rise to a patronymic surname. The modern spelling of Turcott
need not limit us to looking for a place-name origin. The difference
between Turcott and Turcett is insignificant enough to allow an origin
as a patronym.
It also occurs to me that if Thorkell could be shortened to Turk by loss
of the -ell, so also could the Anglo-Scandinavian name Thorketil be
shortened to Turket.
That said, I do think an origin as a place-name is the most likely
explanation for Turcott, as I said in my own post earlier. And I am
curious to know why Bob is so sure the name is French. What is the
evidence for this? Is it that he has traced the surname back to
emigrants from France?
Lastly, Ford's suggestion that the first holder of the surname might
have been a cottar is to conflate two distinct stages in the formation
of a toponymic surname. The place-name Turcott would have been formed
because it consisted of cotlands, or cottars lived there. However the
surname could (indeed would probably) have been formed centuries later,
when someone took his name from the place. By then the tenurial nature
of the place would probably have changed, and that person need not have
been a cottar - indeed he could even have been the lord of the place.
Matt Tompkins
Nathaniel Taylor
> However, I will take a look at this english dictionary...
>
> You must understand that not all cultures elongate and shorten names in the
> same manner or sequence..So further study is needed in this area, especially
> when we don't have all the sources
> specified here for french origins, a decision clearly cannot be made at this
> time.
Well, I stand corrected. Ford, Matt and I were assuming the name was of
middle English origin, which it certainly looked like. And we see so
many queries here in which people have read implausible, bogus French
origins assigned to perfectly ordinary English surnames, that we assumed
that 'Turcott' (which *looks* English with the two 't's and without a
final 'e'), belonged in the same category.
However, googling for a minute shows that Turcotte IS a
French-Quebecois name, and the name's virtual absence in England
supports a French origin. In France, it is true that the diminutive
suffix '-ot' or '-otte' is a standard evolution path for French names.
One on-line French etymological name-dictionary ...
http://jeantosti.com/indexnoms.htm
... confirms the idea that 'Turcotte' comes from the feminine diminutive
'-otte' , added to the epithet-name 'Turc' (or 'le Turc'). I don't know
which of the various printed works one can find (e.g. the big dictionary
/ CD-ROM by Marie-Odile Mergnac, or Laurent Herz's, _Dictionnaire
etymologique des noms de famille francais d'origine etrangere et
regionale, etc.) has the best reputation for good etymology and data on
early usage, but I would look into those works.
Now, how much is known of the precise geographic and social origins of
the earliest documented Quebecois settlers bearing the surname? What's
the best source in France that (like Reaney's dictionary for England)
provides referenced examples of medieval or early-modern users of
surnames? From booksellers' descriptions it looks as if Marie-Odile
Mergnac's dictionary focuses on modern (19th-20th c.) distribution.
Bob Turcott
>From: "Tompkins, M.L." <ml...@leicester.ac.uk>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: RE: crusaders
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:15:33 -0000
>
><<It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an
>'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name element in it,
>'-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. >>
>
>
>It was I who suggested to Bob that Turcott might have originated as a
>pet form of Turc, so I ought defend my suggestion.
>
I never suggested it, to be quite frank here, I used this forum to check a
possible bogus paper
written by a company that sell coats of arms and the like...
>
>Middle English commonly produced pet forms of names by first shortening
>them (eg Thomas to Tom; Richard to Rick, Dick, Hick; Robert to Rob, Hob,
>Dob etc) and then adding one of a list of suffixes, -kin, -el, et, -in
>being the most common (thus producing, for example, Tomkin, Tomsett,
>Tomlin - the last is a double suffix, Tom-el-in). This what Bob means
>by an elongated version.
>
Middle english forget about it!!! not relevant...
>
>Reaney and Wilson said something to the effect that von Feilitzen
>explained the Cambridgeshire Domesday references to Turch, Turcus, as
>the Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with an A-N loss of the -ell, and
>added that it seemed clear to them that Turc was used as a pet form of
>the Scandinavian name.
>
There are a lot more books on this sunject besides the dooms day book and
using
this as an only source would be a severe injustice and lack of repect for my
ancestors.
>
>If so, then it is quite possible that the pet form Turc-et also existed,
>and gave rise to a patronymic surname. The modern spelling of Turcott
>need not limit us to looking for a place-name origin. The difference
>between Turcott and Turcett is insignificant enough to allow an origin
>as a patronym.
>
Not relevant at this time
>
>It also occurs to me that if Thorkell could be shortened to Turk by loss
>of the -ell, so also could the Anglo-Scandinavian name Thorketil be
>shortened to Turket.
>
not relevant
>
>That said, I do think an origin as a place-name is the most likely
>explanation for Turcott, as I said in my own post earlier. And I am
>curious to know why Bob is so sure the name is French. What is the
>evidence for this? Is it that he has traced the surname back to
>emigrants from France?
>
Yes, I have indeed! Infact my ancestor Francois Turcot dit Tureau married
catherine Doiron
mariés le 17 janvier 1740 à St-Pierre de Port Toulouse, Acadie
(St.Peter, Nouvelle Écosse)
Francois Turcott married Jeanne Perodeau. (Francois Turcot's grandparents)
(Francois Turcot's parents)Their son, Francois was born in La Rochelle, St.
Bartholomew's parish. This Francois married Jeanne Bidet, 2 Sep 1709. She
was dau. of Pierre Bidet and Jeanne Renault, The marriage took place at Doue
La Fontaine, Anjou, France.
They had a son, Francois, who came to Acadia, born at Doue, 7 May 1710 .
(this Francois is the husband of Cather DOIRON)
Source: Les Amities Genealogiques Canadiennes Francaises, No. 11, 2000,
pages 33 - 35. Article by Jean-Marie Germe Les Amities Genealogiques
Canadiennes Francaises
>
>Lastly, Ford's suggestion that the first holder of the surname might
>have been a cottar is to conflate two distinct stages in the formation
>of a toponymic surname. The place-name Turcott would have been formed
>because it consisted of cotlands, or cottars lived there. However the
>surname could (indeed would probably) have been formed centuries later,
>when someone took his name from the place. By then the tenurial nature
>of the place would probably have changed, and that person need not have
>been a cottar - indeed he could even have been the lord of the place.
>
>Matt Tompkins
>
_________________________________________________________________
Bob Turcott
>From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: re: Turcott; was re: crusaders
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:02:37 GMT
Matt, knowing the genealogy here are the first 4 settlers named Turcot that
migrated to new france in the mid 1600"s to mid 1700's, the last one is my
ancestor.
TURCOT, Abel (M). INSEE:85154. Pl: Mouilleron-en-Pareds. Zone: Vendée.
Dest: Québec.
TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85065. Pl: Chavagnes-en-Paillers (St-Pierre). Zone:
Vendée. Dest: Québec.
TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85092. Pl: Fontenay-le-Comte. Zone: Vendée. Dest:
Québec.
TURCOT dit TURREAU, François (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doué-la-Fontaine
(St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie
source my website
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~turcottelagace/lesturcottevol.htm
>
>Nat Taylor
>
>a genealogist's sketchbook:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
>
>my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm
>
_________________________________________________________________
Denis Beauregard
Mommaerts-Browne") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Dear Bob,
>Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic], (or,
>possibly, Danish), name, derived from Tor (Thor), which at such a time and
>place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.
>Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which
>you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le', became
>common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm socially;
>much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically)
>shorten their names. However, the forenames William and Robert, (which you
>cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case for
>these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.
Non sense.
Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:
TURCOT name found at Mouilleron-en-Pareds (Vendée) in 1610 and 1617,
but records are missing 1618 to 1700.
There is an Abel TURCAULT in the parish of St-Maurice-le-Girard, same
town.
In French, -OT or -AULT or -AUT or -EAUX etc. are common meaningless
terminations. Root is definitely TURC or TURQUE. Since family names
appeared in the 1300s, you have to think about what it could mean
at that time. It was after the crusades, so it could mean someone
with dark skin or dark hair or very strong (an expression in French
means strong as a Turk), but also many other local words.
See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp
for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendée),
as other variations are less common.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique - www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1716 - www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mes associations de généalogie: www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén. can.-fr.)
oo oo www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)
Bob Turcott
>From: Denis Beauregard <n...@nospam.com.invalid>
>Reply-To: denis.b-at-franc...@nospam.com.invalid
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: crusaders
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:16:25 -0500
>
>On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:48:52 +0000 (UTC), FordMo...@Cox.net ("Ford
>Mommaerts-Browne") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
> >Dear Bob,
> >Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic],
>(or,
> >possibly, Danish), name, derived from Tor (Thor), which at such a time
>and
> >place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.
> >Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames,
>which
> >you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le',
>became
> >common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm
>socially;
> >much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically)
> >shorten their names. However, the forenames William and Robert, (which
>you
> >cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case
>for
> >these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.
>
>Non sense.
>
>Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:
>
TURCAULT or TURQUAULT are mispellings and I have listed the first 4 settlers
on another post
also the dit name of Tureau is also a gross mispelling, because of
eduacation or understanding
of french names especially in the 16oo's, a lot of people did not know how
to write french names properly, especially the united states, even city
clerks have an imagination...
>
>TURCOT name found at Mouilleron-en-Pareds (Vendée) in 1610 and 1617,
>but records are missing 1618 to 1700.
>
>There is an Abel TURCAULT in the parish of St-Maurice-le-Girard, same
>town.
>
>In French, -OT or -AULT or -AUT or -EAUX etc. are common meaningless
>terminations. Root is definitely TURC or TURQUE. Since family names
>appeared in the 1300s, you have to think about what it could mean
>at that time. It was after the crusades, so it could mean someone
>with dark skin or dark hair or very strong (an expression in French
>means strong as a Turk), but also many other local words.
>
>See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp
>for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendée),
>as other variations are less common.
>
>
>Denis
>
>--
> 0 Denis Beauregard -
> /\/ Les Français d'Amérique - www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
> |\ French in North America before 1716 -
>www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
> / | Mes associations de généalogie: www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén.
>can.-fr.)
>oo oo www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La
>Jemmerais)
>
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Nathaniel Taylor
bobtu...@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
> >From: Denis Beauregard <n...@nospam.com.invalid>
>
> >Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:
>
> TURCAULT or TURQUAULT are mispellings and I have listed the first 4 settlers
> on another post
> also the dit name of Tureau is also a gross mispelling, because of
> eduacation or understanding
> of french names especially in the 16oo's, a lot of people did not know how
> to write french names properly, especially the united states, even city
> clerks have an imagination...
> >See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp
> >for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendee),
> >as other variations are less common.
Well, this distribution engine (thanks for citing it, Denis) DOES have
'Turquault', at least, as a spelling variant in and around the Vendee in
the late 19th century, so it is not only the Quebecois who butcher the
spelling that way (and of course only a French speaker would consider
using that spelling for a name he hears that sounds like 'Turk-oh'). I
would say 'Turcot' is the 'normative' spelling of this rather than the
only 'proper' spelling.
The big concentration of 'Turcot' in the Vendee in the earliest period
this applet uses (1890s - 1915) suggests that it may well be a surname
with a single male ancestor in France--or that the 'Turc' nickname was
only current in that region when the surname solidified.
Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've
already seen of origins of specific emigres to Quebec) or distribution
of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late
19th century? The IGI has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.
Bob Turcott
My apologies in this reply, see below.
You are correct one branch is indeed Turcault, it escaped my memory, then
later changed to Turcot however further research in this area is needed,
This may be a differant liniage from mine but further checking is needed..
>>
>>In French, -OT or -AULT or -AUT or -EAUX etc. are common meaningless
>>terminations. Root is definitely TURC or TURQUE. Since family names
>>appeared in the 1300s, you have to think about what it could mean
>>at that time. It was after the crusades, so it could mean someone
>>with dark skin or dark hair or very strong (an expression in French
>>means strong as a Turk), but also many other local words.
>>
seems logical denis thanks, will look into this.
Bob Turcott
>From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: crusaders
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:55:23 GMT
Nat,
knowing the genealogy here are the first 4 settlers named Turcot that
migrated to new france in the mid 1600"s to mid 1700's, the last one is my
ancestor.
TURCOT, Abel (M). INSEE:85154. Pl: Mouilleron-en-Pareds. Zone: Vendée.
Dest: Québec.
TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85065. Pl: Chavagnes-en-Paillers (St-Pierre). Zone:
Vendée. Dest: Québec.
TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85092. Pl: Fontenay-le-Comte. Zone: Vendée. Dest:
Québec.
TURCOT dit TURREAU, François (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doué-la-Fontaine
(St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie
>
>Nat Taylor
>
>a genealogist's sketchbook:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
>
>my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/immigrantsa.htm
>
_________________________________________________________________
Nathaniel Taylor
bobtu...@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
> >From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
>
> >Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've
> >already seen of origins of specific emigres to Quebec) or distribution
> >of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late
> >19th century? The IGI has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.
> >
> Nat,
> knowing the genealogy here are the first 4 settlers named Turcot that
> migrated to new france in the mid 1600"s to mid 1700's, the last one is my
> ancestor.
> TURCOT, Abel (M). INSEE:85154. Pl: Mouilleron-en-Pareds. Zone: Vendee.
> Dest: Quebec.
>
> TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85065. Pl: Chavagnes-en-Paillers (St-Pierre). Zone:
> Vendee. Dest: Quebec.
>
> TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85092. Pl: Fontenay-le-Comte. Zone: Vendee. Dest:
> Quebec.
>
> TURCOT dit TURREAU, Francois (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doue-la-Fontaine
> (St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie
Bob, thanks for this. I saw them on your website too. My question is
whether there's any French data to document surname use in France (not
just 'Turcot' emigrants) in the 1600s or 1700s? For England, the
National Burial Index, searchable for a particular time period, relies
entirely on extractions from parish registers; it is searchable at
http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/
You can get hits by county for free, but actual records (localized by
parishes) cost money.
The English equivalent of the surname mapping site Denis cited is at
University College, London:
http://cetl2.geog.ucl.ac.uk/UCLnames/default.aspx
Denis Beauregard
<nathani...@earthlink.net> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>In article <BAY106-F2643EB23A...@phx.gbl>,
> bobtu...@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>
>
>> >See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom-de-famille/nom.asp
>> >for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendee),
>> >as other variations are less common.
>
>Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've
>already seen of origins of specific emigres to Quebec) or distribution
>of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late
>19th century? The IGI has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.
There are many French databases with a French interface. Some are
free (limited details) other require to buy tokens or to be member
of a society. In that case, the index is free but usually will not
cover all the French departements. In most cases, data is limited to
existing records and the previous generation (i.e. parents). Not
very relevant for medieval search.
www.geneanet.org
index of personal data from many users. of limited help when the name
is very common, in particular when someone migrated to Quebec and has
a lot of descendants (you will have to dig among those descendants
before seeing something new).
www.geneabank.org
central database for many genealogical societies. membership required
but you can view data from any other societies.
www.bigenet.org and www.genealogy.tm.fr (www.genealogie.com has the
same database)
2 commercial databases. bigenet is the official database of the
French federation but societies can be member of the federation
and put their data in both databases or even in the database of
the competitor only
Denis Beauregard
<nathani...@earthlink.net> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>> TURCOT dit TURREAU, Francois (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doue-la-Fontaine
>> (St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie
>
>Bob, thanks for this. I saw them on your website too. My question is
The original data is on my site. This particular database is now
obsolete and I have a new one with migrants by French departement
or country, and town, and also a full alphabetical index for those
married before 1721. My sources are numerous, including first
hand and second hand records. My scope is the French colonies of
the American continent, so it is in immigrant database and not an
emigrant database. Nonetheless, I have in my computer or available
in Montreal some ressources about emigrants like passengers' lists.
If your interest is France, then we should continue this in
soc.genealogy.french.
>whether there's any French data to document surname use in France (not
>just 'Turcot' emigrants) in the 1600s or 1700s? For England, the
>National Burial Index, searchable for a particular time period, relies
>entirely on extractions from parish registers; it is searchable at
See my other message in this thread.
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobtu...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: crusaders
> Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome
> back Mr cotter!!!
> You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!
Thanks! I have a room-mate who likes to point out that I have a great sense
of humour; I'm just not funny.
F
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathani...@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Subject: Re: crusaders
> In article <BAY106-F8C3D955A0...@phx.gbl>,
> bobtu...@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
>
> > >From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMo...@Cox.net>
> > >To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> > >Subject: Re: crusaders
> > >Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Bob Turcott" <bobtu...@msn.com>
> > >To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > >Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
> > >Subject: Re: crusaders
> > >
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > > possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I
will
> > > > need to do further
> > > > study in this area to be certain.
> > >
> > >Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter,
> > >from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.
> > >
> > Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?
Actually, the Thor for whom the 'cottage' would have been named need not
have been the God Thor. Thor is still a not uncommon name and name particle
in Scandinavia. The intrepid Heyerdahl comes to mind. Also, I attended
university with a Swanson whose brother was named Torger. And there was Tor
Johnson, the 'B' horror-movie actor, whose memorable lines included such
gems as, 'You eat now!', and, 'Time for go to bed!'. Tor was a big man in
the business. So big that he broke Ed Woods toilet just by sitting on it.
Today's installment from Ford's House of Trivia
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
It's been quite awhile since I've looked a map of France, (been
concentrating on the Niolitic & Mesopotamian); but were not many Normans,
(who would have perpetuated some Norse naming patterns), quite close to
Maine, adjacent even?
Ford
Derek Howard
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> In message of 26 Jan, bobtu...@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
<snip>
> > Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military
> > Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White, symbolizes the moon and
> > denotes Purity and Obedience.
>
> These symbolisms are not authentic, they were probably invented in post
> medieval times to humour people with not much else to do. The core of
> heraldry was a need to invent some graphic design that would be easily
> recognisable, either on a seal to authorise a document or in a
> tournament on the apparel and armour.
Just a little pedantry is perhaps in order here though off the topic of
the thread. The attribution of virtues to colours and association with
planets goes back at least to the herald Sicille in the early 15th
century whose work was recycled throughout the 15th century. Sicille
was an officer of the King of Sicily and marshal of arms of Hainault,
not a theoretician or amateur. His text quotes extensively from
biblical and classic literature and does not read as if he had just
invented them, there was probably at least a generation of such
thinking before him. In the 15th century the grant of arms to Eton
college by Henry VI in person shows that the meanings of colours were
in current and explicit use. Chivalraic thinking around tournaments
certainly included a considerable amount of such symbolism. How far
back we can trace such thinking is another matter. Shortage of data
hampers analysis of the earlier 13-14th centuries.
Derek Howard
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Interesting. I was merely summarising a paragraph in the rec.heraldry
FAQ:
"At various times in the history of heraldry -- mostly between the
16th and early 19th centuries, and mostly in England -- various
authors tried to create systems of meaning for every charge and
tincture in arms. Some of them went so far as to claim that their
system had _always_ been in use, and therefore that the symbolism of
ancient arms could be deduced from their charts. It was all bunk.
Some heralds probably did design arms according to one or another of
these systems -- which aren't consistent, by the way -- but we have
no way of know, in general, when this was done."
Personally I agree with the statement that is was all bunk, though I
would prefer 'pretentious rubbish'. Sounds like the FAQ needs updating.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
kur...@politik.dk
posting regularly some years ago, but still read it weekly or so.
Anyway, here we go, even if they are the less interesting parts of my
ancestry:
Y/patrilinear (9 generations): Jens Christensen i Gaarden; born 1660,
died no earlier than 1718, a farmer at the island of Øland, Northern
Jutland in Denmark. He was most likely the son of a farmer at the same
place Christen Jensen (mentioned 1660-1670).
mt/matrilinear (8 generations): Kirsten Pedersdatter; born ca. 1730,
died no earlier than 1787, from the village of Jordløse on the island
of Funen, Denmark.
My seven months old daughter, however, has a considerably more
interesting ancestry through her lovely mother:
Y/patrilinear (11 generations from my wife): James Collett, mentioned
1653/1656, merchant in London; his ancestry is currently not proven,
but _may_ go back another nine generations to Robert Colet (-1470),
owner of the Hale (Wendover Burrow in Bucks.) and father of Sir Henry
Colet (ca. 1435-1505), Lord Mayor of London, and through him
grandfather of the theologian John Colet (1466-1519), Dean of St.
Pauls.
mt/matrilinear (20 generations from my wife): Catharina Henningsdotter
von Königsmark, born ca. 1380 in Sweden. Her mother's first name is
not known, but she was a daughter of Bengt Karlsson of the Swedish
uradel family named Örnfot, which may be counted as one more
generation ... That would give our daughter 22 generations of strict
matrilinear ancestry, which I guess is somewhat rare.
XY (14 generations from my wife): Michel Funtin/Fontain/van Thien/von
Thien, born ca. 1545, died ca. 1600, merchant and city councillor,
Olso, Norway.
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> OK, I guess I'll play too:
>
> Y: John Baldwin, of Howden in the parish of Gisburn, Yorkshire, in
> 1684, later of Wheatley, in Pendle Forest, Lancashire, d. 1729, m.
> Bridget ____ (parents of the Quaker immigrant John Baldwin of
> Lancashire and Bucks co., Pennsylvania, d. 1751, m. (2) Ann Scott).
>
> mt: Dorothy Consitt, b. Yorkshire, d. Warren co., Iowa, 1862, m. Henry
> Cartwright. As I have a plausible candidate for her mother (Rebecca
> Rhodes, daughter of Dorothy Huntriss, daughter of Mary Goodill), this
> would be a good place to do some DNA research of my own, if I could
> only find a matrilineal descendant of Mary Goodill.
>
> XY: John Baird, d. 1797/8, Abbeville co., SC (son of Adam Baird, whose
> wife's name is unknown). My paternal grandfather's XY line (which is
> still around in the person of a young great-great-grandson) goes back
> (through the Quaker immigrant George Maris of Worcestershire and
> Chester co., Pennsylvania) 14 generations to a William Wych living in
> the late 1400's.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
ssen_...@yahoo.com
side of the blanket though!] "
Thank you for a little light relief! Seriously, I am glad that you and
others explained the XY with illustrations. I was wondering what it
was.
Shinjinee
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/2/2006 4:26:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ml...@leicester.ac.uk writes:
But that is the surname Turk - is Turcott the same surname? I don't
really see that is has to be - it looks rather as if its origin is an
English place-name. I don't know of any place called Turcott or Turcote
or something like that, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't one.
-cott and -cote are common place-name elements (meaning 'cottage(s)
Take it the next step.
The name rather than being Turc-cott, might be Tur-cott
So the first element wouldn't be related to "Turk" at all.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/2/2006 6:26:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
farm...@interfold.com writes:
You asked earlier whether it was birth/death/marriage certificates or
published books. For my Y line, it is Certs back to the son of the
immigrant. He and his siblings are all named in their father's will,
and this group of names eventually allowed the group to be identified in
Europe, and church birth/death/marriage records then prove it back to
the earliest generation.
You dont really mean this I trust.
Birth certificates are a relatively modern invention.
I suspect you mean Bible records or baptismal records for the births.
Same with death certificates, although they seem to predate birth
certificates in many locations. But rather, wills, probate, obituaries are the most
likely source of *death* information in the 19th century.
Are they not?
Will Johnson
Nathaniel Taylor
I don't see the message to which this replies (that d*** gateway again,
I suppose), but I thought we laid this to rest. Given the appearance of
Middle-English roots in the form 'Turcotte', I was initially skeptical,
but I am satisfied that 'Turcot' is French, not an English, surname, and
appears to derive in a linguistically plausible route with '-ot' as a
diminutive or familiar accretion to the epithet 'le Turc' or simply
'Turc', which is certainly related to 'Turks' in some way, though there
is not enough information as to its meaning to claim that the initial
user of the name must have been a crusader (or a Turk!). I think there
is general evidence that epithets of this type were often used for
people with dark hair or complexion (or red, etc.) but who were not
necessarily exogenous to a local population.
Holders of the surname in the US are (perhaps exclusively) of Quebecois
origin. The name (in all logical variants) is not on the radar in Great
Britain in 1881 (not among the top thousand surnames, at least), and it
does not appear in Reaney-Wilson; on the other hand, it is well attested
in France, with a specific geographic concentration in the Vendee (west
coast between Nantes & La Rochelle), suggesting a coherent shared source.
Nathaniel Taylor
<nathanieltaylor-A5...@news.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Given the appearance of
> Middle-English roots in the form 'Turcotte', I was initially skeptical,
I meant, given the appearance of *what looked like* Middle English roots
(specifically '-cotte' or '-cote') ... I am satisfied that 'Turcotte'
is NOT composed of Middle English roots.
Tompkins, M.L.
> In a message dated 2/2/2006 4:26:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> ml...@leicester.ac.uk writes:
>
> But that is the surname Turk - is Turcott the same surname? I don't
> really see that is has to be - it looks rather as if its origin is an
> English place-name. I don't know of any place called Turcott or
> Turcote or something like that, but that doesn't mean that there
wasn't one.
> -cott and -cote are common place-name elements (meaning 'cottage(s)
>
>
> Take it the next step.
> The name rather than being Turc-cott, might be Tur-cott So the first
> element wouldn't be related to "Turk" at all.
<<I don't see the message to which this replies (that d*** gateway
again, I suppose), but I thought we laid this to rest.>>
I think you probably did see it, Nat - that is part of my original reply
to Bob Turcott's very first post, from Thursday last week (26/1/2006).
It seems it only reached Will Johnson today (2/2/2006). I think now
that AOL is letting emails from Rootsweb get through to its members he
is being overwhelmed by a sudden flood of old postings, which is
probably why he has misunderstood mine.
Matt Tompkins
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/2/2006 9:15:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nathani...@earthlink.net writes:
I don't see the message to which this replies (that d*** gateway again,
I suppose), but I thought we laid this to rest.
As far as laying recent posts to rest... the bad news is this: AOL has JUST
started sending me all the messages posted to soc-gen-med over the past month
or whatever.
It's rather disconcerting since they ALL have posting dates within the last
few days. In other words, the date that I see in the heading is the date
sent to me (or to AOL I suppose) or something... but NOT the date on which the
original item was actually posted.
In the last two days I've gotten 600 emails, I'm not joking at all. And
they are still coming faster than I can read them.
Will Johnson
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> In a message dated 2/2/2006 6:26:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> farm...@interfold.com writes:
>
> You asked earlier whether it was birth/death/marriage certificates or
> published books. For my Y line, it is Certs back to the son of the
> immigrant. He and his siblings are all named in their father's will,
> and this group of names eventually allowed the group to be identified in
> Europe, and church birth/death/marriage records then prove it back to
> the earliest generation.
>
>
>
> You dont really mean this I trust.
I do.
> Birth certificates are a relatively modern invention.
The birth certs I was referring to were 20th century. (Note the first
sentence says birth certificates, the last makes no reference to
certificates.
> I suspect you mean Bible records or baptismal records for the births.
No to Bibles. To Baptismal records, the parish records in question
report both birth and baptism, and their primary purpose morphed from
one to the other (keep in mind, the immigrant was from Revolutionary era
France, when the role of religion and its sacraments was, well,
different). It would have been more accurate to say
birth/baptism/banns/marriage/death/burial records but that does get a
bit unwieldy, doesn't it?
> Same with death certificates, although they seem to predate birth
> certificates in many locations.
They also name parents, so a death certificate from 1910 can provide
someone born in 1810, which is the case here.
But rather, wills, probate, obituaries are the most
> likely source of *death* information in the 19th century.
> Are they not?
Yes. They are. I was not providing a roadmap to research. I was
describing my particular line of proof, and just the bare basics. I
also have census, county histories, etc., but that wasn't the point.
taf
Ginny Wagner
you, I do now. Appreciate your post and letting me/us know
that it is not only possible to document but that due to
human error, it is preferable to verify the information
provided by secondary sources whenever possible. Whether
you intended it as such, or not, it does loosely serve as a
roadmap for proper genealogy.
I'll say that for me, footnotes have been a font of
information ... sometimes I just can't get the specific
documents ... hopefully one day everything will be on line
and we can all have access to our shared history, able to at
least read a document that our ancestors signed or wrote ...
maybe even get a copy.
When I'm done with my current project, I plan to verify what
I've read in secondary sources. ;-)
pj.evans
"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
> "I wonder if some of the 'regulars' would be willing to comment on
> their
> own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line."
>
> Matrilineal lineages, though fascinating, can be frustrating. My own
> certainly is - back a mere 7 generations to a certain Mary (Evans ?)
> Miles (bc 1765), of St Mellons, Gwent, and Llandeyrn, Glamorgan. I envy
> my father - his goes back nicely 12 generations to Mary (---) Osborne,
> wife (married in 1652) of Jeremiah Osborne, of New Haven, Connecticut.
> But my friend Elisabeth Prinzessin zu Ysenburg wins the prize among
> people I know. Hers goes back to NN von Aspermont, wife of Rudolf II
> Graf von Werdenberg-Sargans (died aft 18 March 1323).
>
[snip]
>
> Anthony Hoskins
For whatever it may be worth (probably not much, in this group!):
my father's matrilineal line:
Paul Irving Evans (1917-1994)
Edith Lucile Krone (1884-1981)
Mary Isabel White (1857-1951)
Harriet Melissa Vincent (1829-1901)
Olive Spencer (1792-1878)
Rhoda Greene (1756-1845)
Margaret Greenman (1725-1808)
Sarah Clarke (abt 1692-aft 1741)
Elizabeth Sisson (1669-aft 1693)
Sarah Lawton (abt 1647-1718)
Elizabeth Salisbury (abt 1617-aft 1654)
my mother's matrilineal line:
Margaret Jean Taylor (1921-2005)
Agnes May Baty (1896-1943)
Phebe May Pickering (1867-1956)
Mary Stanley (1836-1886)
Deborah Weisner (1807-aft 1848)
Ann Mendenhall (1786-bef 1814)
Elizabeth Sell (1758- ?)
Sarah (said to be Tatum)
P J Evans
Bob Turcott
Denis,
I came across a nice book written by Jonathan Riley-Smith called the first
crusaders 1095-1131,
in the back of Smith's book has some very interesting pedigrees:
Trees for the following clans are shown:
Rainald I of Burgundy
Guy I of Montlhery
Le Puiset Everard I of Breteuil
and lastly some descendants of Almodis of La Marche and Eleanor of Aquitaine
is one of the descendants cited From William X of Aquitaine to william IV of
Toulouse.
Bob Turcott
I see a lot of people asking on the web where we come from originally. I would say that all depends how far they want to go back and wicg branch of the the family they are speaking of. There are turcottes in a few other countries that have been there a while and share the name most notable among them is Whales. The welch Turcotte are believed to have arrived in the early 1300's around the time of the false accusations of Phillip the fair alleging Herasy against all those in France associated with the Poor Knights. Prior to that most of the blood line wich shares the name lived in Provence France. Prior to that in Burgundy wich be came provance. They weathered the sericen invasions and where spared do to a resemblance to the invaders. The family is said to have been founded by a man and women of great importance from the holy land some time during the first century CE, And the name originally Turcus was acquired during Roman providence. Any way I degress, But it must be noted that the original hereldric crest's center peice is the same as that use by the Poor Knights for a sigil. I do not speak of the common twins on a horse but instead of the lamb of god bearing a blue streaming banner and adorned aloft with a gold splayed cross. Wich literally translated means bearer of the blood of God and Devine providence. How ever figuratives where used in that time as well and therefore we must not draw rash conclusions of the facts at hand as some have tried in the past. I must also tell you that the name has different meaning depending on what region it is used in. For example it can mean chopped off tower in welch, in ancient norse it mean House of Thor, and in old burgundian dialect it can mean Female of the serisan (or)in newer French translation supposedly Female Turkish soldier
----------------------------------------
> From: n...@nospam.com.invalid
> Subject: Re: crusaders
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:16:25 -0500
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
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In a message dated 12/1/2007 9:04:07 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
bobtu...@msn.com writes:
There are turcottes in a few other countries that have been there a while
and share the name most notable among them is Whales.
--------
The most notable Turcott's are whales ?
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Bob Turcott
Denis,
I thought the similarities between Turquault & Turquet here are funny!!!
Turquault D'argent, au chevron de gueules, acc. de trois têtes de More, tortillées d'or.
Turquet de Beauregard D'or, à deux coeurs de gueules appointés, celui en pointe renversée, acc. de trois molettes du même, 2 et 1.
however I suspect prior to Turqualt the name might have been Turcus.
question regarding the crusader that is most definitely true. The crest I described in the previous email is that of a Poor knights member. The Poor Knights are better known to day as Templars. What is interesting is that there is a good possiblity that our crest predates the official formation of of the Templars and may Have given rise to the Sigil afixed to may Templar sites and monument as far away as England and Scotland. The crest originated most likely in the Burgundy Kingdom that is now part modern day france. We faught the Moslem invaders when the serisans invaded burgundy in about the 900's. Lots of people seem to forget that Europe almost fell to the Sarisan in that time period. The earliest root of the name I have tracked down is Turcus judging from the root and suffix used it appears to be of Roman or Ancient Greek origin. I am still doing research on this. I know that the family is ancient and has given rise to family and tribal sir names in many countries.
Once and for shure I can state that that Our family was seated in Provance France Since at least the times of the kingdom of Burgundy and that means they owned land and where titled there at least as lords since at minimum the tehth century. The family where crusaders and did fight the invaders prior to the crusades we know this by the registered heraldry of our family(the earliest family crest on record from the tenth century).
Of course this is an ongoing project and I state that Gallica is an excellent source
for research, I will duly keep those informed of my research as this is getting very interesting!!!
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
Denis Beauregard
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
>
>Denis,
>
>I thought the similarities between Turquault & Turquet here are funny!!!
>
>Turquault D'argent, au chevron de gueules, acc. de trois têtes de More, tortillées d'or.
>Turquet de Beauregard D'or, à deux coeurs de gueules appointés, celui en pointe renversée, acc. de trois molettes du même, 2 et 1.
The only common parts are that one feature is red (gueule) and
another has 3 components.
>however I suspect prior to Turqualt the name might have been Turcus.
Both names have probably a similar origin, i.e. turc meaning
either of the color of Turks (dark skin, like Morin for Maurs)
or related to the Turkish people. But it can be turquoise, which
is a shade of blue or green, or so many more words of that time.
Nothing to make them cousins.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
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Nathaniel Taylor
Bob Turcott <bobtu...@msn.com> wrote:
> question regarding the crusader that is most definitely true. The crest I
> described in the previous email is that of a Poor knights member. The Poor
> Knights are better known to day as Templars. What is interesting is that
> there is a good possiblity that our crest predates the official formation of
> of the Templars and may Have given rise to the Sigil afixed to may Templar
> sites and monument as far away as England and Scotland. The crest originated
> most likely in the Burgundy Kingdom that is now part modern day france. We
> faught the Moslem invaders when the serisans invaded burgundy in about the
> 900's. Lots of people seem to forget that Europe almost fell to the Sarisan
> in that time period. The earliest root of the name I have tracked down is
> Turcus judging from the root and suffix used it appears to be of Roman or
> Ancient Greek origin. I am still doing research on this. I know that the
> family is ancient and has given rise to family and tribal sir names in many
> countries.
> Once and for shure I can state that that Our family was seated in Provance
> France Since at least the times of the kingdom of Burgundy and that means
> they owned land and where titled there at least as lords since at minimum
> the tehth century. The family where crusaders and did fight the invaders
> prior to the crusades we know this by the registered heraldry of our
> family(the earliest family crest on record from the tenth century).
Most readers of this forum will tell you that there is no generally
acknowledged heraldry before the twelfth century. Statements that
such-and-such arms (let alone crest, if you are using that term
correctly) originated before the late 12th century are almost always
demonstrably wrong. If you make such statements here, you should
provide information about your source.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
Bob Turcott
Nat,
Interms of sources I have stated gallica, secondly heraldry existed long before the 12th century
and during the bayeux tapestry clearly shows symbols as such on shields and other elements pointing to hearldry
around year 1066 however the formal heralds to document such coats of arms was around the 11th & 12th centuries,
one can argue that heraldry did not formally exist till the 11th & 12th centuries, but many historians will argue
that heraldry did exist long before the 12th century, and I am one of those that believe it existed around the year 900 or before,
but such herldry was not documented seriously till the 11th or 12th centuries.
I am not here to argue about heraldry, if you know more about the topic specifically about crusaders then I
WILL further entertain reccomendations that point to the topic of interest.
best wishes
bob t
> From: nlta...@nltaylor.net
> Subject: Re: crusaders
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:41:36 -0500
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>
> In article ,
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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Nathaniel Taylor
Bob Turcott <bobtu...@msn.com> wrote:
> >> there is a good possiblity that our crest predates the official formation
> >> of the Templars and may Have given rise to the Sigil afixed to may Templar
> >> sites and monument as far away as England and Scotland. The crest originated
> >> most likely in the Burgundy Kingdom that is now part modern day france. We
> >> faught the Moslem invaders when the serisans invaded burgundy in about the
> >> 900's. Lots of people seem to forget that Europe almost fell to the Sarisan
> >> in that time period. The earliest root of the name I have tracked down is
> >> Turcus judging from the root and suffix used it appears to be of Roman or
> >> Ancient Greek origin. I am still doing research on this. I know that the
> >> family is ancient and has given rise to family and tribal sir names in
> >> many countries.
> >>
> >> Once and for shure I can state that that Our family was seated in Provance
> >> France Since at least the times of the kingdom of Burgundy and that means
> >> they owned land and where titled there at least as lords since at minimum
> >> the tehth century. The family where crusaders and did fight the invaders
> >> prior to the crusades we know this by the registered heraldry of our
> >> family (the earliest family crest on record from the tenth century).
> >
> > Most readers of this forum will tell you that there is no generally
> > acknowledged heraldry before the twelfth century. Statements that
> > such-and-such arms (let alone crest, if you are using that term
> > correctly) originated before the late 12th century are almost always
> > demonstrably wrong. If you make such statements here, you should
> > provide information about your source.
>
> Interms of sources I have stated gallica, secondly heraldry existed long
> before the 12th century
> and during the bayeux tapestry clearly shows symbols as such on shields and
> other elements pointing to hearldry
> around year 1066 however the formal heralds to document such coats of arms
> was around the 11th & 12th centuries,
> one can argue that heraldry did not formally exist till the 11th & 12th
> centuries, but many historians will argue
> that heraldry did exist long before the 12th century, and I am one of those
> that believe it existed around the year 900 or before,
> but such herldry was not documented seriously till the 11th or 12th
> centuries.
>
> I am not here to argue about heraldry, if you know more about the topic
> specifically about crusaders then I
> WILL further entertain reccomendations that point to the topic of interest.
I am not interested here in general documentation about
pre-twelfth-century proto-heraldry (which you are correct in saying is
subject to a certain amount of historians' disagreement, albeit to a
limited degree). What I would like to see, though, is documentation
for your very specific claims (if I understand them correctly) that:
(1) you descend from a family 'titled as lords' in Burgundy from the
tenth century or before;
(2) there is documentation of this family's 'family crest' (you mean
coat of arms, right?) from the 10th century;
(3) this armorial evidence proves that this family was fighting against
Saracens at that time, crusaders avant la lettre.
Could you provide specific evidence for each of these claims? I'm sure
I am not alone in finding them extraordinary and therefore requiring
some sort of precise evidentiary support.
The third point is especially difficult in a number of ways. While it
is certainly likely that most tenth-century lords in Burgundy were
involved from time to time in fighting against Islamic bandits (like
those based in Fraxinetum that abducted the abbot of Cluny), it would be
near impossible to support the claim that some sort of armorial device
proves such work. Further, there was essentially no such thing as
'crusaders' (by any theological or ideological definition) prior to the
crusades. Plenty of people fought against Muslims before the late
eleventh century, but few or none can be shown to have done so as a
matter of religious conscience. The fact that crusading was an
ideological innovation, coming largely out of the circle of papal
reformers in the late eleventh century, and embraced as a hybrid form of
the relatively young grassroots traditions of confessional pilgrimage in
Western Europe, is now fairly well established.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
t...@clearwire.net
> Nat,
>
> Interms of sources I have stated gallica, secondly heraldry existed long before the 12th century
> and during the bayeux tapestry clearly shows symbols as such on shields and other elements pointing to hearldry
> around year 1066 however the formal heralds to document such coats of arms was around the 11th & 12th centuries,
>
Well, not really. It only shows that there were designs on shields,
but it lacks any proof of consistency nor heredity. Harold does fly a
banner, but war banners long predated heraldry as you are using the
term.
> one can argue that heraldry did not formally exist till the 11th & 12th centuries, but many historians will argue
>
A minority.
> that heraldry did exist long before the 12th century, and I am one of those that believe it existed around the year 900 or before,
>
And I don't think any but the smallest minority of that minority would
trace it this early, as true heraldry rather than just vague
symbolism. What I mean by this last is that the tombs at Notre Dame
show lis-like emblems at the top of very old scepters that may
foreshadow the royal arms. However, when the French royals actually
started using true heraldry, it blossomed in several lines at once,
with nothing in common but the colors blue and gold, suggesting that
there was no such family association with this symbol in a true
heraldic sense at the time it was adopted by the royals.
> but such herldry was not documented seriously till the 11th or 12th centuries.
A convenient argument - it existed but there is no evidence because no
one wrote it down. So hard to distinguish from the alternative, that
no one wrote it down because it didn't exist.
As to the specific origins of the arms in question, it is problematic
to assume too much. A 'Turk' on an arms could derive from a literal
turk, or it could be an example of 'canting' (punning) arms. There
are numerous English Moore families with moor's heads on their
shields, and they claim to trace from crusaders, but more often derive
from geographical features, a moor or even a mare (Latin sea, but
sometimes used for a swamp).
taf
Denis Beauregard
soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Well, not really. It only shows that there were designs on shields,
>but it lacks any proof of consistency nor heredity. Harold does fly a
>banner, but war banners long predated heraldry as you are using the
>term.
I think you should look at the pere Anselme works and the equivalent
in England. While made after the medieval times, you can look for
families existing before year 1000 for example, and see which ones
have a crest. Also, look for a family claiming the same root as
another one for the mere reason both had a similar crest. I didn't
make the study but I am pretty sure you will find what you define
as "heraldry" sooner than expected, i.e. consistency and hereditary.
Indeed, I would expect something in the Roman era if something
coloured survived from that time.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
t...@clearwire.net
francogene....@fr.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:24:15 -0800 (PST), t...@clearwire.net wrote in
> soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
> >Well, not really. It only shows that there were designs on shields,
> >but it lacks any proof of consistency nor heredity. Harold does fly a
> >banner, but war banners long predated heraldry as you are using the
> >term.
>
> I think you should look at the pere Anselme works and the equivalent
> in England. While made after the medieval times, you can look for
> families existing before year 1000 for example, and see which ones
> have a crest.
I mentioned symbolism, but whether it rises to the level of a 'crest'
in the heraldic sense . . . . Yes, Henry I gave boots decorated with
golden lions to his son in law, but it was the setting of these on a
shield that marked the initiation of heraldry in the medieval sense.
> Also, look for a family claiming the same root as
> another one for the mere reason both had a similar crest. I didn't
> make the study but I am pretty sure you will find what you define
> as "heraldry" sooner than expected, i.e. consistency and hereditary.
I was leaving out the third prong, which was met by his example -
display on shields.
> Indeed, I would expect something in the Roman era if something
> coloured survived from that time.
Yes, there was Roman-era familial symbolism, just as there was tribal
totem use, and they both forshadow the medieval heraldry of hereditary
arms on shields, but that does not mean any European had arms, in this
medieval sense, at these earlier dates, particularly in the 800s.
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
> francogene....@fr.invalid> wrote:
> > On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:24:15 -0800 (PST), t...@clearwire.net wrote in
> > soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >
> > >Well, not really. It only shows that there were designs on shields,
> > >but it lacks any proof of consistency nor heredity. Harold does fly a
> > >banner, but war banners long predated heraldry as you are using the
> > >term.
> >
> > I think you should look at the pere Anselme works and the equivalent
> > in England. While made after the medieval times, you can look for
> > families existing before year 1000 for example, and see which ones
> > have a crest.
Can I interject here about the use of the word 'crest'? In the English
language, the word 'crest' refers to the little added device on top of a
coat of arms, sometimes derived from an ornament worn atop a closed
great helm in tournament use from the 13th century onward. 'Coat of
arms' is the correct term for the pattern painted or tooled on someone's
shield itself. Crest is very often misused to mean 'coat of arms'.
Consult the faq for the usenet group rec.heraldry, here:
http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/heraldry.faq
See especially the section, "What is the difference between a coat of
arms and a crest?"
This is not just niggling--it is important to be specific and precise
when making claims about the early heraldry (as with the early
genealogy) of any given family or individual.
> > Also, look for a family claiming the same root as
> > another one for the mere reason both had a similar crest. I didn't
> > make the study but I am pretty sure you will find what you define
> > as "heraldry" sooner than expected, i.e. consistency and hereditary.
This argument has been made in a couple of instances, including the
chequy fields (or charges) borne by various Vermandois descendants, or
the cross patonce for some families related to the early counts of
Toulouse. But Denis's conclusion is far from self-evident. There is
not enough evidence to show that we are really dealing with inherited
charges rather than, say, coats adopted contemporaneously by people who
knew themselves to be kin, allies or affines, of others who used or
adopted similar devices. And mentioning these isolated and
controversial cases does not help to document the specific claim made
about another family, earlier in this thread.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
Bob Turcott
Nat,
this is the direction I am going with this, I am certain that anyone on this forum wouldvery easily find referances
for sericen invasions.
They weathered the sericen invasions and where spared do to a resemblance to the invaders. The family is said to have been founded by a man and women of great importance from the holy land some time during the first century CE, And the name originally Turcus was acquired during Roman providence. Any way I degress, But it must be noted that the original hereldric crest's center peice is the same as that use by the Poor Knights for a sigil. I do not speak of the common twins on a horse but instead of the lamb of god bearing a blue streaming banner and adorned aloft with a gold splayed cross. Wich literally translated means bearer of the blood of God and Devine providence.
kind regards to all, I see all the responses and very interesting arguments
Bob
> From: nlta...@nltaylor.net
> Subject: Re: Turcus, Turcot, etc. in 10th-century Burgundy (was re: crusaders)
> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:34:06 -0500
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>
> In article ,
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 1/27/2008 3:50:09 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
bobtu...@msn.com writes:
The family is said to have been founded by a man and women of great
importance from the holy land some time during the first century CE, >>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact the Turcas family was founded by the grandson of Joseph of Arimethea.
There is a family story which relates how the family, fleeing the collapse
of Jerusalem, touched down in France first. This was of course prior to
Joseph moving on the Glastonbury at the age of about 160 or so.
At any rate, Joseph's grandson married the female child of Mary Magdalene,
who was also of course the daughter of Jesus who himself had left and gone to
Egypt where he died.
Joseph's grandson was of course named Dagovichus of Turcania while his wife
was named Burgundica Ludovinia.
Frankly Nat I'm surprised you're not fully aware of this as it's all rather
standard history.
Will Johnson
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http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Nathaniel Taylor
Bob Turcott <bobtu...@msn.com> wrote:
> This is the direction I am going with this, I am certain that anyone on this
> forum wouldvery easily find referances for sericen invasions.
>
> They weathered the sericen invasions and where spared do to a resemblance to
> the invaders. The family is said to have been founded by a man and women of
> great importance from the holy land some time during the first century CE,
> And the name originally Turcus was acquired during Roman providence. Any way
> I degress, But it must be noted that the original hereldric crest's center
> peice is the same as that use by the Poor Knights for a sigil. I do not speak
> of the common twins on a horse but instead of the lamb of god bearing a blue
> streaming banner and adorned aloft with a gold splayed cross. Wich literally
> translated means bearer of the blood of God and Devine providence.
>
> kind regards to all, I see all the responses and very interesting arguments.
Interesting elaboration; thank you.
1. First-century origins in Eastern empire.
2. A hereditary name (Turcus) acquired in antiquity.
3. Tenth-century swarthy physical appearance ("spared due to a
resemblance to the invaders").
4. Tenth-century crest: agnus dei carrying banner with cross.
Again, can you provide a source for any of these statements or claims?
By the way, the agnus dei seal seems to have been used by Templar
commanderies in England, and the cross is usually glossed as a St.
George's cross (either on a banner or plain atop a rod). This is not
necessarily the Jerusalem cross (or on argent); I don't know about or on
azure: seals are not tinctured.
Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
Denis Beauregard
<nlta...@nltaylor.net> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Could you provide specific evidence for each of these claims? I'm sure
>I am not alone in finding them extraordinary and therefore requiring
>some sort of precise evidentiary support.
My feeling in this case is that Turquault was a given name.
Anyway, if you check the geometry of some family names, you will
find that TURCOT are concentrated on the West coast of France,
far from area where the Muslims would attack.
http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=turcot&submit=Valider&client=cdip
TURCOTTE and TURQUAULT are not enough to be useful.
I tried other spellings, but found nothing.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -