Orthodox Paradox in the NY Times
J J Levin
modern-Orthodox upbringing and how his former school views his marriage to a
non-Jewish woman.
I accessed the story on the Times web site without using my password, so I
think it's open to the public with no special subscription or payment.
Jay
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22yeshiva-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Giorgies E. Geshahnna
I see we have becaome an equal opportunity complainer, not a
complainer exclusively against the hareidim. The 'moder' orthodox are
no good either. What is the complaint here? The school alumni
publications are not a right. Keeping up with alumni is a strictly
social event. You comit a serious breech of our rules, you have
excluded yourself from our social circles. Everything in life comes
with a cost. You wanted to marry a shiksa? You got it! This is not
Israel, it is America. We have freedom of religion and freedom of
association. You married whom you wanted. We also have freedom of the
press. The editors of the Alumni paper have the freedom to include or
exclude whomever the choose, be it fo marrying a shiksa or for any
other reason. You too have freedom of the press. Get hold of an alumni
mailing list, print your own alumni paper, and send it out. What is
the cause for complaint here. Apparently no one whose religious views
or practise is anywhere th the right of Mr Levi's can ever do anything
correctly, save when he occasionly uses it in a reply to Ms Cindy or
other to say, 'See, I said something nica about hareidim'. Mr Levin is
not alone here. We have several others here in the same camp.
Giorgies
wishing all an easy fast, and eagerly anticipating Wendnesday next,
when I am to be affirmed in finally as a citizen of the United States
of America.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> In the NY Times Sunday magazine (Sunday, 7/22) Noah Feldman tells about his
> modern-Orthodox upbringing and how his former school views his marriage to a
> non-Jewish woman.
>
> I accessed the story on the Times web site without using my password, so I
> think it's open to the public with no special subscription or payment.
Thanks! I forwarded to post by Mister Feldman to the Members of the
Board of Maimonides School who in their eagerness to have their graduates
get into Ivy League schools get to produce the Feldman fiasco.
Josh
>
> Jay
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22yeshiva-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
>
>
>
J J Levin
news:1185076551....@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Sorry, Giorgies, I did not read this as a complaint, but rather a statement
of the state of affairs. I thought it would be interesting for others to
read. I added no comments of my own, letting each reader read into the
article whatever he/she reads into it.
Surely Mr. Feldman, being a professor of law, realizes the legal aspects to
which you have alluded.
If you see this as a complaint by Mr. Feldman, I guess that comes from your
own POV.
Apparently no one whose religious views
> or practise is anywhere th the right of Mr Levi's can ever do anything
> correctly,
Totally untrue. Again, I posted this as a statement of facts, with no
comment. I read a great deal about Judaism, and I find it interesting that
the old "herem" has become the new "herem".
As regards practice, if you've read my posts here, you would realize that I
SUPPORT every Jewish stream's right to practice as it wishes. That includes
the haredim, modern-O, C, R, Recon, secular humanism, whatever. What I
object to is trying to force their views and practices on others.
> Giorgies
eagerly anticipating Wendnesday next, when I am to be affirmed in finally as
a citizen of the United States
> of America.
Sincere congratulations!!!
Jay
>
J J Levin
news:f7us0t$h1f$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <Zkwoi.275$527...@newsfe12.lga>, "J J Levin"
> <jjl...@optonline.net> writes:
>> In the NY Times Sunday magazine (Sunday, 7/22) Noah Feldman tells about
>> his
>> modern-Orthodox upbringing and how his former school views his marriage
>> to a
>> non-Jewish woman.
>>
>> I accessed the story on the Times web site without using my password, so
>> I
>> think it's open to the public with no special subscription or payment.
>
>
> Thanks! I forwarded to post by Mister Feldman to the Members of the
> Board of Maimonides School who in their eagerness to have their graduates
> get into Ivy League schools get to produce the Feldman fiasco.
>
> Josh
>
You don't think that, considering the story as told by Feldman and printed
in the Times, they are aware of it?
Jay
Giorgies E. Geshahnna
>
> Sorry, Giorgies, I did not read this as a complaint, but rather a statement
> of the state of affairs. I thought it would be interesting for others to
> read. I added no comments of my own, letting each reader read into the
> article whatever he/she reads into it.
>
> Surely Mr. Feldman, being a professor of law, realizes the legal aspects to
> which you have alluded.
>
> If you see this as a complaint by Mr. Feldman, I guess that comes from your
> own POV.
>
> Apparently no one whose religious views
>
> > or practise is anywhere th the right of Mr Levi's can ever do anything
> > correctly,
>
> Totally untrue. Again, I posted this as a statement of facts, with no
> comment. I read a great deal about Judaism, and I find it interesting that
> the old "herem" has become the new "herem".
>
> As regards practice, if you've read my posts here, you would realize that I
> SUPPORT every Jewish stream's right to practice as it wishes. That includes
> the haredim, modern-O, C, R, Recon, secular humanism, whatever. What I
> object to is trying to force their views and practices on others.
The dry facts are indeed as you say. But each time you tell us about
your support fot the orthodox and the haredim to practice as they
wish, it comes as a defense after you have made abundantly clear your
negative sentiments about how the Orthodox and the Haredim practice.
At least, that is how it comes accross to me.
As you say, you thought this would be interesting for others to read.
It follows that you yourself found this interestin. It is true that
you posted it without comment. But you must have some thoughts about
this affair. And given your history here, or at least the way I
interpret your history here, I cannot imagine that your own reaction
to the behaviour of the alumni is anything but negative, nor that you
have anything but sympathy for Mr Feldman's plight of his own making.
Perhaps I am wrong. Would you kindly share your views with us?
Giorgies
Giorgies E. Geshahnna
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>
> news:f7us0t$h1f$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <Zkwoi.275$527...@newsfe12.lga>, "J J Levin"
> >> In the NY Times Sunday magazine (Sunday, 7/22) Noah Feldman tells about
> >> his
> >> modern-Orthodox upbringing and how his former school views his marriage
> >> to a
> >> non-Jewish woman.
>
> >> I accessed the story on the Times web site without using my password, so
> >> I
> >> think it's open to the public with no special subscription or payment.
>
> > Thanks! I forwarded to post by Mister Feldman to the Members of the
> > Board of Maimonides School who in their eagerness to have their graduates
> > get into Ivy League schools get to produce the Feldman fiasco.
>
> > Josh
>
> You don't think that, considering the story as told by Feldman and printed
> in the Times, they are aware of it?
Probably not. Members of Boards, even at nominally orthodox
institutions, are usually leaders of finance and industry, often not
themselves alumni, and are far aloof from the doings of the alumni
organisations and newsletters. I should not be surprised were we to
discover that one or two members of the Board are themselves married
to gentile women. I do not see the Board members becoming too much
disturbed upon reading this artical, either in the original or in the
forward by Professor Backon. In fact, I can readily imagine them
feeling proud that one of their alumni has made it so far up in
society that the New York Times prints their writings.
Giorgies
J J Levin
Glad to. My thoughts were that I did not think that they would actually
ignore his wife and remove their photos from the alumni photos in the
newsletter. Apparently Feldman did not think they would, either, and he
knows more about his group than I do. That's why I thought that the new form
of "herem" is interesting.
I have no negative thoughts towards a group that wishes to maintain itself
through marriage with Jews only. It's a free country.
I think that you would be surprised if you saw my rather extensive library.
I read much about Judaism --including the non-liberal wings.
Jay
Susan S
<jjl...@optonline.net>:
For many online newspapers and other sites that force one to register in
order to view some or all of the content, there is www.bugmenot.com.
Susan Silberstein
Giorgies E. Geshahnna
> "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com> wrote in messagenews:1185104662.4...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Two thoughts:
Firstly regarding the old style herem. It is not merely old style. It
is in occasional use even today, mostly in cases where people refuse
to appear at a din torah to which they have been summoned because of
monetary claims against them, or for those who do appear, and,
dissatisfied with the judgement, refuse to comply. Even then, usually
only in very egregious cases involving those wo embezzwl communal
funds. There are no black candles and there is no shofar blowing. I am
unaware of any halcha requiring such artifacts. The judges merely
announe 'So-and-so is menuda' or 'so-and-so' is muchram', usually
followed by publishing the fact either in newspapers or on the shule's
bulletin board. How effective the herem is in bringing the miscreant
to heel depends upon how closely knit the community is where these
judges hold their position, and how much the miscreant cares about it.
Now regarding this new style herem as the expression is coined by Mr
Feldman: it is no herem at all. It is merely social reaction of people
when one in their midst violates a serious social taboo. Among most
Jews, intermarriage is a social taboo even more than it is a religious
taboo. Even among many who adhere to none of the ritual laws of
Judaism, intermarriage is severely frowned upon. Technically,
intermarriage is an ordinary prohibition, no more severe than eating
pork or wearing shatnez. From the technical halachic viewpoint, it is
far less severe than eating hametz on Pesah, or than marrying a Jewish
woman and failing to observe the laws of nidda. The reason that
intermarrige is viewed as such a serious violation is social, not
religious.
If Mr Feldman learned nothing else during his Modern Orthodox
education at the modern orthodox school, he learned how great a social
taboo intermarriage is, even among most modern of modern orthodox. But
Mr Feldman chose to thumb his nose at his peers, and to violate one of
their most secredly held social taboos. He knowingly and willingly put
himself in this predicament. What did he expect - that he could spit
in the faces of his former friends with impunity? It is he who has
placed his former friends in herem; not they him.
> I think that you would be surprised if you saw my rather extensive library.
> I read much about Judaism --including the non-liberal wings.
I am old enough and have seen enough so that very little surprises me
any more. But if you read much about all 'wings' of Judaism, you are
certainly aware of the enormous social stigma, as apart from ritual
transgression, that intermarrigage carries -- including the liberal
wings. While the liberal wings are more inclined to accept after the
fact, most try very hard to dissuade before the fact.
Giorgies
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
They were unaware of it until I sent it to them.
Josh
>
> Jay
>
>
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
>
> > You don't think that, considering the story as told by Feldman and printed
> > in the Times, they are aware of it?
>
> They were unaware of it until I sent it to them.
Just as I suspected.
Q
wrote:
(snip)
>
> If Mr Feldman learned nothing else during his Modern Orthodox
> education at the modern orthodox school, he learned how great a social
> taboo intermarriage is, even among most modern of modern orthodox. But
> Mr Feldman chose to thumb his nose at his peers, and to violate one of
> their most secredly held social taboos.
I don't think that's why people get married to non-Jews -- to "thumb
their noses" at their peers, or anybody else by their choice of
spouse.
I agree he might have known. Actually, he says his old friends from
his school still speak to him and see him socially. It's only on this
quasi-official basis -- school publications and such -- that he's
being shunned by the O community.
He doesn't seem that upset about it.
>He knowingly and willingly put
> himself in this predicament. What did he expect - that he could spit
> in the faces of his former friends with impunity?
"Spit in their faces?? " Please!! What has his marriage got to do
with them that they should be insulted by it?
> It is he who has
> placed his former friends in herem; not they him.
>
> > I think that you would be surprised if you saw my rather extensive library.
> > I read much about Judaism --including the non-liberal wings.
>
> I am old enough and have seen enough so that very little surprises me
> any more. But if you read much about all 'wings' of Judaism, you are
> certainly aware of the enormous social stigma, as apart from ritual
> transgression, that intermarrigage carries -- including the liberal
> wings.
Sometimes.
Sometimes not. -- Q
Q
>
>
>
> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> >news:f7us0t$h1f$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> >> In article <Zkwoi.275$527...@newsfe12.lga>, "J J Levin"
> >>> In the NY Times Sunday magazine (Sunday, 7/22) Noah Feldman tells about
> >>> his
> >>> modern-Orthodox upbringing and how his former school views his marriage
> >>> to a
> >>> non-Jewish woman.
>
> >>> I accessed the story on the Times web site without using my password, so
> >>> I
> >>> think it's open to the public with no special subscription or payment.
>
> >> Thanks! I forwarded to post by Mister Feldman to the Members of the
> >> Board of Maimonides School who in their eagerness to have their graduates
> >> get into Ivy League schools get to produce the Feldman fiasco.
>
> >> Josh
>
> > You don't think that, considering the story as told by Feldman and printed
> > in the Times, they are aware of it?
>
> They were unaware of it until I sent it to them.
That's because they hadn't read their newspaper yet. The article
appeared today (Sunday).
What did you hope to accomplish by sending it to them?
-- Q
>
> Josh
>
>
>
> > Jay
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Who are you, Inspector Clouseau ? :-)
Josh
>
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Because I went to this high school in the 1960's and know most
of the senior board members. My complaint was that if your
school Weltanschauung is to go to an Ivy League school, then
don't be disappointed if a Feldman fiasco occurs. Some of these
people have such an open mind, I think their brains fell out :-)
So long as the first principal was there (Rabbi Moshe Cohen z"l)
none of this naarishkeit would have ever occurred. With a change of
the guard in the late 1970's, the outlook of the school shifted.
Any other questions?
Josh
>
>
> -- Q
>
>
>>
>> Josh
>>
>>
>>
>> > Jay
>
>
Q
No. As an alumnus, you really are an interested party. And IMO, they
need to know because if they are annoying alumni, it will impact on
fund raising.
I certainly grumble about changes at my old school and also at my
college, and that sometimes takes the form of letters and even phone
calls. -- Q
Q
wrote:
I thought it was very interesting, and I probably wouldn't have seen
it, if Jay hadn't posted it.
>It is true that
> you posted it without comment. But you must have some thoughts about
> this affair. And given your history here, or at least the way I
> interpret your history here, I cannot imagine that your own reaction
> to the behaviour of the alumni is anything but negative, nor that you
> have anything but sympathy for Mr Feldman's plight of his own making.
It seems to me that some posters have been trying to discourage Jay
from sharing his opinions. Furthermore, they apparently don't even
want him to post articles such as this that he thinks might be of
interest to some of us. -- Q
J J Levin
news:f80c5a$tso$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
So by e-mailing it to them, you hope to change their weltanschauung ? You
don't think the members of the board know what the school teaches?
Jay
Rick Rubenstein
Feldman and his wife, writes on the subject in the Jerusalem Post.
"Q" <quon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1185127196.0...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
J J Levin
news:9g0pi.86$OB6...@newsfe12.lga...
> Rabbi Boteach, who has the interesting credentials of actually *knowing*
> Feldman and his wife, writes on the subject in the Jerusalem Post.
>
> http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1184766034824&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
>
Very sensitive article by Rabbi Boteach. Thanks for posting, Rick.
Jay
Q
> Rabbi Boteach, who has the interesting credentials of actually *knowing*
> Feldman and his wife, writes on the subject in the Jerusalem Post.
>
That's a great link and IMO everybody should read it. Thank you for
posting it.
-- Q
>
> "Q" <quond...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
I like to rub it in :-) And as a potential donor (with megabucks)
[make that mega-megabucks] I have clout.
Josh
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> "Rick Rubenstein" <poun...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:9g0pi.86$OB6...@newsfe12.lga...
>> Rabbi Boteach, who has the interesting credentials of actually *knowing*
>> Feldman and his wife, writes on the subject in the Jerusalem Post.
>>
>> http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1184766034824&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
>>
>
>
> Very sensitive article by Rabbi Boteach. Thanks for posting, Rick.
>
> Jay
How typical of Shmuly Boteach! He wrote the same naarishkeit 12 years ago
on the old soc.culture.jewish on USENET.
The Shulchan Aruch YOREH DEAH 2:5 ("mumar l'hach'is afilu ledavar echad")
indicates that someone who deliberately violates a prohibition has the
halachic status of a gentile.
Cohabitation (for the sake of marriage) with a gentile is a biblical
prohibition (see: Chelkat Mechokek EVEN HA'EZER 16:5) and is punishable
by *karet* since it is a public act (see also Maharam Shick EH 155).
Already in Tanach we see how the prophet Malachi (2:11) deemed intermarriage
"bagda Yehuda v'to'evah ne'esta b'yisrael u'beyerushalayim; ki chilal
yehuda kodesh hashem asher ahev u'va'al bat el nechar": a major desecration
of God's name (chilul hashem). The Rambam (Hilchot Issurei Biah 12:1)
rules like R. Shimon bar Yochai in the gemara (AZ 36b) that the prohibition
of intermarriage is *biblical* even if the gentile is not one of the
7 Nations (as per Deuteronomy 7:3).
Those who deliberately intermarry have placed themselves outside the fold.
The Iggrot Moshe OC III 12 holds that those who are *kofrim mamash* are not
eligible to get an *aliya* to the Torah.
The Mishna Brura 55 #47 (anyone who denies the validity of the Oral Law
is not permitted to make a minyan). Mishna Brura 126 #2 "mikol ha'deyot":
one who denies the validity of the Oral Law isn't permitted to serve a
chazan [cantor]; if such a person does serve, one is prohibited to answer
*amen* after his blessings. See also Biur Halacha 215 "hamevarech apikorus".
These people have the halachic status of a gentile.
My only problem with Maimonides School (and I forwarded the Feldman article
to senior Board members) was their burning desire (from the early 1980's after
the first principal Rav Moshe Cohen z"l retired) to have students get into Ivy
League schools. I sent a not-so-gentle SHTOCH that the Noah Feldman fiasco
was a direct result of this Weltanshauung.
Some people have such open minds I think their brains fell out.
Josh
Joel Shurkin
> On Jul 22, 6:52 am, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com>
> wrote:
>> On Jul 22, 6:17 am, "J J Levin" <jjle...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>
Snip
>>
> from sharing his opinions. Furthermore, they apparently don't even
> want him to post articles such as this that he thinks might be of
> interest to some of us. -- Q
>
>
>> Perhaps I am wrong. Would you kindly share your views with us?
>>
>> Giorgies
The article was much more about the dichotomy that MOs try to live by
than it was about intermarriage. They are caught in two worlds, even
more so than, I think Conservatives. They are also, at least in
Baltimore, treated with total disdain by the increasingly black-hat O
establishment to the point where unkind words are not uncommon. They
get a lot more sympathy from Conservatives.
j
--
Joel Shurkin
Baltimore, Maryland
----------------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."
Albert Einstein
Yisroel Markov
>On Jul 22, 11:09 am, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com>
>wrote:
>
>(snip)
>>
>> If Mr Feldman learned nothing else during his Modern Orthodox
>> education at the modern orthodox school, he learned how great a social
>> taboo intermarriage is, even among most modern of modern orthodox. But
>> Mr Feldman chose to thumb his nose at his peers, and to violate one of
>> their most secredly held social taboos.
>
>I don't think that's why people get married to non-Jews -- to "thumb
>their noses" at their peers, or anybody else by their choice of
>spouse.
At least not any more.
>I agree he might have known. Actually, he says his old friends from
>his school still speak to him and see him socially. It's only on this
>quasi-official basis -- school publications and such -- that he's
>being shunned by the O community.
>
>He doesn't seem that upset about it.
It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
(I'm biased here, though. I have a thing against doctoring pictures,
re-writing history, etc., mostly because of where I come from.)
[snip]
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
chsw
Now that the intermarriage has happened, wouldn't it be
beneficial to the community (as well as the Feldmans) to persuade
Mrs. Feldman (and any children) to halachically convert? Also,
which of the prohibitions Josh has listed above would be
nullified if Mrs. Feldman (and any children) did halachically
convert?
chsw
PS: The desirability of Ivy League diplomas will come under
scrutiny proportional to the number of tenured moonbats.
KarenElizabeth
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 18:48:04 +0000 (UTC), Q <quond...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >On Jul 22, 11:09 am, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >(snip)
>
> >> If Mr Feldman learned nothing else during his Modern Orthodox
> >> education at the modern orthodox school, he learned how great a social
> >> taboo intermarriage is, even among most modern of modern orthodox. But
> >> Mr Feldman chose to thumb his nose at his peers, and to violate one of
> >> their most secredly held social taboos.
>
> >I don't think that's why people get married to non-Jews -- to "thumb
> >their noses" at their peers, or anybody else by their choice of
> >spouse.
>
> At least not any more.
>
not. Rather, its the announcement in the alumnae news, which either
is, or could be seen as, an official publication of the institution.
It could be seen as asking the school to officially sanction the
relationship or marriage.
Of course, I'm having trouble figuring out how the school would
immediately know that the woman was not Jewish.
In any event, in most cases, I would think that people intermarry
because they have already rejected Judaism, rather than rejecting
Judaism because they choose to intermarry.
> >I agree he might have known. Actually, he says his old friends from
> >his school still speak to him and see him socially. It's only on this
> >quasi-official basis -- school publications and such -- that he's
> >being shunned by the O community.
>
> >He doesn't seem that upset about it.
>
> It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
> but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
> as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
> R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
>
This *really* has me at a loss. Why does Josh see the school's
emphasis on acadmic excellence -- what he refers to as an emphasis on
getting into Ivy League schools -- considered a negative? Would he
prefer that we give our kids a mediocre education? Can the fact that
one student, out of how many, intermarried be seen as a failure of his
high school?
Karen Elizabeth
chsw
I read Josh's comment that the school administrators placed a
higher priority on producing graduates that went to Ivy-caliber
colleges than on producing believing Jews. However, I do not
think that such a conclusion can be inferred from Feldman's
article. The objectionable actions are entirely Feldman's, IMHO.
OTOH, as a parent of a child going into 9th grade, I understand
the pressure that parents put upon administrators.
chsw
Eliyahu
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 18:48:04 +0000 (UTC), Q <quond...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >On Jul 22, 11:09 am, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >(snip)
>
> >> If Mr Feldman learned nothing else during his Modern Orthodox
> >> education at the modern orthodox school, he learned how great a social
> >> taboo intermarriage is, even among most modern of modern orthodox. But
> >> Mr Feldman chose to thumb his nose at his peers, and to violate one of
> >> their most secredly held social taboos.
>
> >I don't think that's why people get married to non-Jews -- to "thumb
> >their noses" at their peers, or anybody else by their choice of
> >spouse.
>
> At least not any more.
>
> >I agree he might have known. Actually, he says his old friends from
> >his school still speak to him and see him socially. It's only on this
> >quasi-official basis -- school publications and such -- that he's
> >being shunned by the O community.
>
> >He doesn't seem that upset about it.
>
> It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
> but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
> as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
> R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
>
> (I'm biased here, though. I have a thing against doctoring pictures,
> re-writing history, etc., mostly because of where I come from.)
>
the question of whether it's appropriate, ethical or justifiable for
the alumni association to lie to its members about who was or wasn't
present. Printing a photograph in a magazine tells the readers, "Here
is a photograph showing what happened at this even or who was present
at the event." Doctoring that photo to make it appear that people who
were present weren't present, or to add people who weren't there is
just plain dishonest. It changes the publication from a news magazine
to editorial propaganda, and it's no different than printing a story
claiming that only ten people were present for an event when there
actually were twenty, half of whom the writer didn't like. It also
does an incredible job of destroying the magazine's credibility.
After all, who is going to believe anything they read or see in it
after learning that they air-brush people out of photos?
Wrong is wrong -- even if it helps you.
Eliyahu
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
*IF* the conversion would be genuine (and to show seriousness, the couple
would have to split up for at least 2-3 months) then Mrs. Feldman
would be welcomed into Orthodoxy and Judaism. The prohibitions violated
by Mr. Feldman wouldn't be nullified; they would simply no longer
exist. Whether there is punishment would be left to God not man.
Josh
Josh
Q
>
> >On Jul 22, 11:09 am, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >(snip)
>
> >> If Mr Feldman learned nothing else during his Modern Orthodox
> >> education at the modern orthodox school, he learned how great a social
> >> taboo intermarriage is, even among most modern of modern orthodox. But
> >> Mr Feldman chose to thumb his nose at his peers, and to violate one of
> >> their most secredly held social taboos.
>
> >I don't think that's why people get married to non-Jews -- to "thumb
> >their noses" at their peers, or anybody else by their choice of
> >spouse.
>
> At least not any more.
Did they used to? There are better ways to thumb one's nose than
that.
>
> >I agree he might have known. Actually, he says his old friends from
> >his school still speak to him and see him socially. It's only on this
> >quasi-official basis -- school publications and such -- that he's
> >being shunned by the O community.
>
> >He doesn't seem that upset about it.
>
> It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
> but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
> as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
> R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
If they had simply included Mr. Feldman and his wife in the picture, I
doubt that the trustees would have been aware of Feldman's supposed
transgression.
>
> (I'm biased here, though. I have a thing against doctoring pictures,
> re-writing history, etc., mostly because of where I come from.)
I agree that doctoring pictures is improper as a general rule --
especially pictures that are going to be released to the public. A
group picture taken at a reunion is supposed to document who was
there, among other things. When people are erased from it, that makes
the picture a lie.
-- Q
>
> [snip]
>
> Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Memberwww.reason.com-- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Sigh ....
In my day (Maimonides in the 60's) we applied to and got accepted in
Ivy League schools (Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia) but went
to Yeshiva University. Graduates went on to the professions (law, medicine)
but got rabbinical ordination on the way.
> prefer that we give our kids a mediocre education? Can the fact that
You miss the point: academic excellence was stressed (taking 5-6 AP courses
was de rigeur) as was Jewish knowledge and observance. But going to Ivy
League schools (at least in the 60's and 70's) was discouraged.
> one student, out of how many, intermarried be seen as a failure of his
> high school?
>
Yes, because Feldman harps on Maimonides School!
It's 1 out of a few hundred and one too many.
Josh
> Karen Elizabeth
>
Joel Shurkin
Simply not true. The American Jewish community is full of intermarried
couples who have not rejected Judaism and are raising their children
Jewish. Moi, for example. In most cases there was a conversion. It may
not be a conversion everyone agrees is valid, but a conversion
nonetheless. It is not always possible to predict who you fall in love
with.
j
>
>>> I agree he might have known. Actually, he says his old friends from
>>> his school still speak to him and see him socially. It's only on this
>>> quasi-official basis -- school publications and such -- that he's
>>> being shunned by the O community.
>>
>>> He doesn't seem that upset about it.
>>
>> It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
>> but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
>> as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
>> R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
>>
> This *really* has me at a loss. Why does Josh see the school's
> emphasis on acadmic excellence -- what he refers to as an emphasis on
> getting into Ivy League schools -- considered a negative? Would he
> prefer that we give our kids a mediocre education? Can the fact that
> one student, out of how many, intermarried be seen as a failure of his
> high school?
>
> Karen Elizabeth
Joel Shurkin
What the picture is saying is this is who was at the party whom we find
acceptable. Which I find reprehensible.
j
Q
> On Jul 23, 1:00 pm, Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 18:48:04 +0000 (UTC), Q <quond...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > >On Jul 22, 11:09 am, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com>
> > >wrote:
>
> > >(snip)
>
> > >> If Mr Feldman learned nothing else during his Modern Orthodox
> > >> education at the modern orthodox school, he learned how great a social
> > >> taboo intermarriage is, even among most modern of modern orthodox. But
> > >> Mr Feldman chose to thumb his nose at his peers, and to violate one of
> > >> their most secredly held social taboos.
>
> > >I don't think that's why people get married to non-Jews -- to "thumb
> > >their noses" at their peers, or anybody else by their choice of
> > >spouse.
>
> > At least not any more.
>
> But is the marriage itself the perceived nose-thumbing? I would think
> not. Rather, its the announcement in the alumnae news, which either
> is, or could be seen as, an official publication of the institution.
> It could be seen as asking the school to officially sanction the
> relationship or marriage.
>
> Of course, I'm having trouble figuring out how the school would
> immediately know that the woman was not Jewish.
His wife is Korean-American, so that might have made them wonder about
it.
>
> In any event, in most cases, I would think that people intermarry
> because they have already rejected Judaism, rather than rejecting
> Judaism because they choose to intermarry.
>
> > >I agree he might have known. Actually, he says his old friends from
> > >his school still speak to him and see him socially. It's only on this
> > >quasi-official basis -- school publications and such -- that he's
> > >being shunned by the O community.
>
> > >He doesn't seem that upset about it.
>
> > It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
> > but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
> > as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
> > R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
>
> This *really* has me at a loss. Why does Josh see the school's
> emphasis on acadmic excellence -- what he refers to as an emphasis on
> getting into Ivy League schools -- considered a negative? Would he
> prefer that we give our kids a mediocre education? Can the fact that
> one student, out of how many, intermarried be seen as a failure of his
> high school?
Besides, according to Rabbi Boteach, Feldman continued to be observant
through his years at his Ivy League college and after that, at
Oxford. So the high school apparently did a good job of reinforcing
religious belief. He didn't start to show signs of "waning
observance" until he was at his second graduate school.
-- Q
>
> Karen Elizabeth
YM
>
> Because I went to this high school in the 1960's and know most
> of the senior board members. My complaint was that if your
> school Weltanschauung is to go to an Ivy League school, then
> don't be disappointed if a Feldman fiasco occurs. Some of these
> people have such an open mind, I think their brains fell out :-)
>
> So long as the first principal was there (Rabbi Moshe Cohen z"l)
> none of this naarishkeit would have ever occurred. With a change of
> the guard in the late 1970's, the outlook of the school shifted.
>
> Any other questions?
>
First, I really don't have any problem with them removing his picture,
although I do understand
Yisrael's aversion to the "Trotsky treatment". But, to me, the
article was primarily a justification for his turning his back on this
"primitive religion", which he trashes publicly in order to show how
"progressive" he has become. The problem is not so much cutting him
and his non-Jewish girlfriend out of the picture, but his claiming
that Judaism does not value the lives of non-Jews, and that it turns
out "fanatic murderers" like Goldstein and Yigal Amir. I was
disgusted by Shmuley Boteach's defense of his friend, but then the
"high and mighty" do protect and defend one another. Yes, Feldman is
smart, but it isn't only the "smart Jews" particularly those who have
abandoned their people who have kept the Jewish people going for all
these millenia, but simple Jews who have not attended Ivy League
schools. And there is no lack of people just as smart as him who have
stuck with us. Boteach is wrong about him. Feldman was not some
simple, unlearned Jew who married out because he didn't appreciate his
heritage, he knew exactly what he was doing and how it hurts his
family and peers. That is why he wrote this disgusting article, to
add insult to injury. OF COURSE, he can do teshuva, and he would be
welcomed back with open arms, and his wife and non-Jewish children can
convert, and would be fully accepted then. But until then, I don' see
why we should sympathize with him. He is only causing us damage.
Regarding the Maimonides School, I am glad Josh has given us the
information about them. What Josh has said has proven to me that
"Toran Im Derech Eretz" or "Torah u'Mada" (i.e. an Orthodox Jewish
approach that has a positive attitude to secular education and
professions) really only work in Eretz Israel. Whereas Rav Kook said
the Jewish people living in Eretz Israel would need all professions
and skills and the education to run their state, religious Jews who
try to make it big outside Israel, in the big
non-Jewish world, will come under great pressure, either oepnly or
subtely, to conform if they really want to make it to the top. This
was the source of Joe Lieberman (who is said to be observant) telling
a reporter when he was running for President that "Judaism has no
problem with intermarriage" (Mitt Romney has also been distorting
Mormon theology in order to find favor with non-Mormon voters).
We have seen in recent years several Orthodox Jews reach high
positions in the State and Defense Departments arrogantly start
preaching to Israel and demanding Israel take positions opposing it
own interests. Ultimately, we see these peoples own egos and interests
crowd out their supposed committment to Am Israel.
Abe Kohen
> > It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
> > but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
> > as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
> > R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
> >
> This *really* has me at a loss. Why does Josh see the school's
> emphasis on acadmic excellence -- what he refers to as an emphasis on
> getting into Ivy League schools -- considered a negative? Would he
> prefer that we give our kids a mediocre education? Can the fact that
> one student, out of how many, intermarried be seen as a failure of his
> high school?
Josh would have you believe that there are no graduates of Hareidi /
Ultra-Orthodox yeshivot who have married outside the faith.
Best,
Abe
07-24-07
R'foo-ah shlay-ma for Shayndel bat Gittel
R'foo-ah shlay-ma to all victims of Islamofascist terror
Abe Kohen
> On Jul 23, 2:06 pm, KarenElizabeth <karenelizabe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Of course, I'm having trouble figuring out how the school would
> > immediately know that the woman was not Jewish.
>
> His wife is Korean-American, so that might have made them wonder about
> it.
We have several women converts of Asian descent in our MO sinnergogue. But
you are right, Professor Feldman did not hide the fact.
Abe Kohen
>
> In my day (Maimonides in the 60's) we applied to and got accepted in
> Ivy League schools (Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia) but went
> to Yeshiva University. Graduates went on to the professions (law,
medicine)
> but got rabbinical ordination on the way.
Why apply to top schools if you had no intention of attending?
>
>
>
> > prefer that we give our kids a mediocre education? Can the fact that
>
>
> You miss the point: academic excellence was stressed (taking 5-6 AP
courses
> was de rigeur) as was Jewish knowledge and observance. But going to Ivy
> League schools (at least in the 60's and 70's) was discouraged.
Why?
Ironically, last shabbat after the hashkama minyan at the MO sinnergogue I
attend, Professor Feldman's father was in attendance at a shiur given by a
young investment banker - a graduate of MIT and a graduate of the MO high
school affiliated with said sinnergogue. As I had not yet read the article,
I missed a golden opportunity at kiddush to ask Feldman senior about his
views on his son's article.
Going to a good college, such as the Ivies, the Techs, and the Stanfords
does not make an MO person "bad."
In fact how many Hareidi young women do you know who fast every single fast
day? I know of at least one MO Ivy graduate who does.
> > one student, out of how many, intermarried be seen as a failure of his
> > high school?
> >
>
> Yes, because Feldman harps on Maimonides School!
>
> It's 1 out of a few hundred and one too many.
Is that also true for Hareidi yeshivot? Oh, they don't become successful
professors and don't write articles for the NY Times.
BTW, which yeshiva did Chumpsky attend? Or, l'havdil, Professor Alan
Dershowitz?
Abe Kohen
>
> It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
> but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
> as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
> R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
>
> (I'm biased here, though. I have a thing against doctoring pictures,
> re-writing history, etc., mostly because of where I come from.)
And because of where you live I would have expected you to come in contact
with many Maimonides graduates. Do you have an opinion on Maimonides and its
graduates?
Abe Kohen
> I like to rub it in :-) And as a potential donor (with megabucks)
> [make that mega-megabucks] I have clout.
I understand that you are a potential donor. (Aren't we all?)
But are the mega-bucks only potential, as well?
YM
> BTW, which yeshiva did Chumpsky attend? Or, l'havdil, Professor Alan
> Dershowitz?
>
Although Dershowitz doesn't claim to have lived up to his Orthodox
upbringing, he doesn't go around trashing Orthodox Judaism in public,
in fact he defends it, and is also a vociferious defender of Israel
and the Jewish people. I say this even though his views on "peace"
with the Palestinians are very different than mine.
I don't know much about what Chomsky's background is. I believe his
father was a well-known Professor of Hebrew Literature, and junior
can speak Hebrew-I heard him interviewed on Israel radio once.
Interestingly, with the Israeli Left's infatuation with self-hating
Jews (e.g. Burg, Jr), Chomsky is not talked about much in Israel.
Maybe that is because he is so anti-American, whereas the Israeli Left
dreams about the US coming in and taking over here.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote
>>
>> In my day (Maimonides in the 60's) we applied to and got accepted in
>> Ivy League schools (Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia) but went
>> to Yeshiva University. Graduates went on to the professions (law,
> medicine)
>> but got rabbinical ordination on the way.
>
> Why apply to top schools if you had no intention of attending?
It reminds me of the followup joke:
Moishe asks where the shul president lives and someone says, "That
dreck ? That ganiff?? He lives 2 blocks down, 2nd house on the right".
Moishe walks a half a block and asks another person for directions to
the house of the shul president: "That filth? That swindler?? He lives
a block and a half down, 2nd house on the right". Moishe continues
walking and asks a 3rd person: "That thief? That drunk ? He lives a
half a block down, 2nd house on the right". Moishe finally reaches
the house and knocks on the door. When the shul president comes out, Moishe
asks him why he serves as president of the shul. He says, "Why? FOR THE
KOVID" [kavod = honor]
We applied to and got accepted into Ivy League school "FOR THE KOVID!" :-)
>
>>
>>
>>
>> > prefer that we give our kids a mediocre education? Can the fact that
>>
>>
>> You miss the point: academic excellence was stressed (taking 5-6 AP
> courses
>> was de rigeur) as was Jewish knowledge and observance. But going to Ivy
>> League schools (at least in the 60's and 70's) was discouraged.
>
> Why?
>
Because it was very difficult then (60's) [and impossible since] for an
undergraduate to remain truly O in such an environment. Graduate school
and professional school (law, medicine) are different. The person is 4
years older and more mature.
> Ironically, last shabbat after the hashkama minyan at the MO sinnergogue I
> attend, Professor Feldman's father was in attendance at a shiur given by a
> young investment banker - a graduate of MIT and a graduate of the MO high
> school affiliated with said sinnergogue. As I had not yet read the article,
> I missed a golden opportunity at kiddush to ask Feldman senior about his
> views on his son's article.
>
I think I know the family from Brookline. Could you remind me who the father
is?
> Going to a good college, such as the Ivies, the Techs, and the Stanfords
> does not make an MO person "bad."
>
It does as an undergraduate.
> In fact how many Hareidi young women do you know who fast every single fast
> day? I know of at least one MO Ivy graduate who does.
>
>
>> > one student, out of how many, intermarried be seen as a failure of his
>> > high school?
>> >
>>
>> Yes, because Feldman harps on Maimonides School!
>>
>> It's 1 out of a few hundred and one too many.
>
> Is that also true for Hareidi yeshivot? Oh, they don't become successful
> professors and don't write articles for the NY Times.
>
> BTW, which yeshiva did Chumpsky attend? Or, l'havdil, Professor Alan
> Dershowitz?
My cousin Alan was a disgrace to his O parents in Boro Park. They never got
over his leaving Orthodoxy. Alan only went to BTA (high school) and his
BA was at Brooklyn College. Had he gone to Yeshiva College he probably
would have remained O. [I heard this from his late father Harry a"h].
Chomsky junior never went to a yeshiva or yeshiva high school. His father
was a big macher in Jewish education (afternoon Hebrew schools) in the
United States in the 40's and early 50's.
Josh
cindys
"Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:f86ali$g55$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> "Q" <quon...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> On Jul 23, 2:06 pm, KarenElizabeth <karenelizabe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Of course, I'm having trouble figuring out how the school would
>> > immediately know that the woman was not Jewish.
>>
>> His wife is Korean-American, so that might have made them wonder about
>> it.
>
> We have several women converts of Asian descent in our MO sinnergogue.
And when the time is right (five to ten years from now), my older son has
expressed to me that he is hoping that one of these women will bestow him
the honor of becoming his wife :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
KarenElizabeth
> In article <1185217060.154937.102...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, KarenElizabeth <karenelizabe...@yahoo.com> writes:
SNIP
> >> It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
> >> but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
> >> as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
> >> R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
>
> > This *really* has me at a loss. Why does Josh see the school's
> > emphasis on acadmic excellence -- what he refers to as an emphasis on
> > getting into Ivy League schools -- considered a negative? Would he
>
> Sigh ....
>
> In my day (Maimonides in the 60's) we applied to and got accepted in
> Ivy League schools (Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia) but went
> to Yeshiva University. Graduates went on to the professions (law, medicine)
> but got rabbinical ordination on the way.
>
> > prefer that we give our kids a mediocre education? Can the fact that
>
> You miss the point: academic excellence was stressed (taking 5-6 AP courses
> was de rigeur) as was Jewish knowledge and observance. But going to Ivy
> League schools (at least in the 60's and 70's) was discouraged.
>
> > one student, out of how many, intermarried be seen as a failure of his
> > high school?
>
> Yes, because Feldman harps on Maimonides School!
>
> It's 1 out of a few hundred and one too many.
>
couple of day school to YU graduates from that time. My husband's
cousin graduated around 1967 or so, I'd guess, with a distinct
antipathy towards Judaism. He *did* marry a Jewish woman, I concede,
but didn't give his kids a Jewish education (AFAIK), and is quite
pleased that one son married a non-Jew, and the other is in a serious
relationship with a non-Jew.
Sure, being at a school like YU makes certain things easier. My
office donates space for them to host an annual function, and its nice
for me to be able to actually eat the same food as everyone else at a
party. Nonetheless, you seriously underestimate the Jewish life at a
great many other schools. At my Ivy League college in the 80s, O, C
and R services were overflowing, to the extent that they could not
even be held at Hillel. Kosher food was available for those who
wanted it. No classes or exams were ever held on Shabbos or religious
holidays. (I do recognize that this was not the case at all the
Ivies. My also-Ivy law school still had exams on Saturdays until the
early 80s, when its Jewish dean was replaced with a non-Jew ... go
figure.) If a person's belief is so tenuous that living outside a
mostly-Jewish milieu is likely to destroy it, then the problem isn't
with the milieu.
Karen Elizabeth
KarenElizabeth
> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
> >> On Jul 23, 2:06 pm, KarenElizabeth <karenelizabe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > Of course, I'm having trouble figuring out how the school would
> >> > immediately know that the woman was not Jewish.
>
> >> His wife is Korean-American, so that might have made them wonder about
> >> it.
>
> > We have several women converts of Asian descent in our MO sinnergogue.
>
> ----------
> And when the time is right (five to ten years from now), my older son has
> expressed to me that he is hoping that one of these women will bestow him
> the honor of becoming his wife :-)
> Best regards,
Which is the point that I was trying to make, of course. Jews come in
all races. Simply looking at a picture, why would you ever assume
that the Caucasians were Jewish, and the non-Caucasians were not?
Karen Elizabeth
KarenElizabeth
universal *you* not Cindy.
Karen Elizabeth
Q
> > BTW, which yeshiva did Chumpsky attend? Or, l'havdil, Professor Alan
> > Dershowitz?
>
> Although Dershowitz doesn't claim to have lived up to his Orthodox
> upbringing, he doesn't go around trashing Orthodox Judaism in public,
> in fact he defends it, and is also a vociferious defender of Israel
> and the Jewish people. I say this even though his views on "peace"
> with the Palestinians are very different than mine.
I just reread Feldman's piece in the NYT, and I wish you would explain
to me how and where he "trashes" Orthodox Judaism. I suspect that you
and I have a different definition of "trashing."
>
> I don't know much about what Chomsky's background is. I believe his
> father was a well-known Professor of Hebrew Literature, and junior
> can speak Hebrew-I heard him interviewed on Israel radio once.
> Interestingly, with the Israeli Left's infatuation with self-hating
> Jews (e.g. Burg, Jr), Chomsky is not talked about much in Israel.
> Maybe that is because he is so anti-American, whereas the Israeli Left
> dreams about the US coming in and taking over here.
Chomsky attended public schools in Philadelphia and got his BA and PhD
from the University of Pennsylvania.
-- Q
J J Levin
> On Jul 25, 5:30 am, YM <bar_kochba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > BTW, which yeshiva did Chumpsky attend? Or, l'havdil, Professor Alan
>> > Dershowitz?
>>
>> Although Dershowitz doesn't claim to have lived up to his Orthodox
>> upbringing, he doesn't go around trashing Orthodox Judaism in public,
>> in fact he defends it, and is also a vociferious defender of Israel
>> and the Jewish people. I say this even though his views on "peace"
>> with the Palestinians are very different than mine.
>
> I just reread Feldman's piece in the NYT, and I wish you would explain
> to me how and where he "trashes" Orthodox Judaism. I suspect that you
> and I have a different definition of "trashing."
>
Same here. I read the article carefully. Trash? where?
Jay
Joel Shurkin
I might also add, and Abe may verify, depending on when he went, that
Jewish life at Stanford was splendid.There was a kosher coop dining
hall, Hillel was the largest most active student organization outside
of student government, the administration cleared the schedule with the
Hillel rabbi to make sure there were no conflicts, they ran services on
the holy days for all three branches, and there was no real problem for
MO students, which included my son. The Jewish studies program is
excellent (the present chancellor of JTS was a professor there and one
of my son's mentors) and it has one of the largest Judaic libraries in
America. Black hat students would have had a problem but there weren't
any.
Yisroel Markov
<ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> said:
>"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote
>>
>> It may also be that the doctoring was done not to exclude Mr. Feldman,
>> but to spare the school the embarrassment over what they must perceive
>> as an educational failure. Precisely to avoid the kind of letter that
>> R' Dr. Josh sent to the board.
>>
>> (I'm biased here, though. I have a thing against doctoring pictures,
>> re-writing history, etc., mostly because of where I come from.)
>
>And because of where you live I would have expected you to come in contact
>with many Maimonides graduates. Do you have an opinion on Maimonides and its
>graduates?
In my circles it is regarded as "the MO school that took the Rav's
ideas a bit too far." We're friends with people who send children
there. The black hat community treats such people with suspicion.
Graduates that I know span the spectrum in their observance (without
falling into either black hat or R extreme), but I suspect that such
outcomes are generally due 70% to the family and no more than 30% to
the school.
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
cindys
"KarenElizabeth" <karenel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1185387377....@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Thanks, but it was understood (especially since my sons are Korean-American
Jews).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Q
>
>
>
> > "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
> >news:f86ali$g55$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...> "Q" <quond...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > >> On Jul 23, 2:06 pm, KarenElizabeth <karenelizabe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> > Of course, I'm having trouble figuring out how the school would
> > >> > immediately know that the woman was not Jewish.
>
> > >> His wife is Korean-American, so that might have made them wonder about
> > >> it.
>
> > > We have several women converts of Asian descent in our MO sinnergogue.
>
> > ----------
> > And when the time is right (five to ten years from now), my older son has
> > expressed to me that he is hoping that one of these women will bestow him
> > the honor of becoming his wife :-)
Is he limiting his choices to women of Asian descent?
> > Best regards,
>
> Which is the point that I was trying to make, of course. Jews come in
> all races. Simply looking at a picture, why would you ever assume
> that the Caucasians were Jewish, and the non-Caucasians were not?
Most of us are aware that Jews come in all races. The majority of
Jews are Caucasian, however.
Very few Korean-Americans are Jewish. According to an online article,
75% of Korean Americans are Protestant. The remaining 25% are
Catholic and Buddhist, and some have no affiliation at all.
So it would be a reasonable guess, based on statistical probability,
that an Asian person is probably not Jewish.
I wouldn't go assuming that Caucasians in a picture are Jewish either,
unless they are at a reunion of yeshiva or Jewish day school students
Of course, a person should not *act* on assumptions made from looking
at photographs. But it's fair enough to ask, if a question is raised,
and the answer is important to the person -- or the institution --
raising the question.
-- Q
>
> Karen Elizabeth
Abe Kohen
>
> I might also add, and Abe may verify, depending on when he went, that
> Jewish life at Stanford was splendid.There was a kosher coop dining
> hall, Hillel was the largest most active student organization outside
> of student government, the administration cleared the schedule with the
> Hillel rabbi to make sure there were no conflicts, they ran services on
> the holy days for all three branches, and there was no real problem for
> MO students, which included my son. The Jewish studies program is
> excellent (the present chancellor of JTS was a professor there and one
> of my son's mentors) and it has one of the largest Judaic libraries in
> America. Black hat students would have had a problem but there weren't
> any.
Twenty years ago at Stanford that was not the case. This was before the
Kosher dining options. Mrs. Schneider, a"h, ran the Kosher Korner in Palo
Alto. Kosher Hallot we bought at a Swedish bakery in, IIRC, Los Alto Hills.
About a decade ago, the scene was as you described it. (I got the info from
a young Stanford grad who was working at the hedge fund where Micha and I
worked in the mid to late 90's.)
Remember that Stanford had a de facto undergrad Jewish quota until the
shmuck who ran admissions moved to Princeton, where he cut the Jewish
numbers in half, until he retired after a scandal.
Best,
Abe
07-25-07
cindys
> On Jul 25, 1:01 pm, KarenElizabeth <karenelizabe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 25, 12:46 pm, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>>
>> >news:f86ali$g55$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...> "Q" <quond...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> > >> On Jul 23, 2:06 pm, KarenElizabeth <karenelizabe...@yahoo.com>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> > Of course, I'm having trouble figuring out how the school would
>> > >> > immediately know that the woman was not Jewish.
>>
>> > >> His wife is Korean-American, so that might have made them wonder
>> > >> about
>> > >> it.
>>
>> > > We have several women converts of Asian descent in our MO
>> > > sinnergogue.
>>
>> > ----------
>> > And when the time is right (five to ten years from now), my older son
>> > has
>> > expressed to me that he is hoping that one of these women will bestow
>> > him
>> > the honor of becoming his wife :-)
>
> Is he limiting his choices to women of Asian descent?
He's limiting his choices to torah-observant Jewish women, but he would like
to marry an Asian-American torah-observant Jewish woman if possible since
he's an Asian-American torah observant Jewish man.
>
> Most of us are aware that Jews come in all races. The majority of
> Jews are Caucasian, however.
Yes.
>
> Very few Korean-Americans are Jewish. According to an online article,
> 75% of Korean Americans are Protestant. The remaining 25% are
> Catholic and Buddhist, and some have no affiliation at all.
>
> So it would be a reasonable guess, based on statistical probability,
> that an Asian person is probably not Jewish.
All of this is irrelevant to us. Obviously, a non-Jewish Asian woman would
not be a potential wife (or even a potential date) for my son. My son's
first priority will be to find a religious Jewish wife, but the way he sees
it, if she could be of Asian descent as well, so much the better. The rabbi
who performed his conversion stated at the time of the conversion that my
son was not by any means the only Asian-American adopted child to have
undergone a halachic Jewish conversion or who was living a torah-observant
life. What we discussed at the time was that when my son reached an age
where he was interested in getting married, the rabbi might try to arrange a
shidduch (loosely: arranged introduction for the purpose of marriage) of my
son to a torah-observant Asian Jewish girl whose background is similar to
his. If he can't find such a girl, he can't, but he would like to try.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Don Levey
> All of this is irrelevant to us. Obviously, a non-Jewish Asian woman would
> not be a potential wife (or even a potential date) for my son. My son's
> first priority will be to find a religious Jewish wife, but the way he sees
> it, if she could be of Asian descent as well, so much the better. The rabbi
> who performed his conversion stated at the time of the conversion that my
> son was not by any means the only Asian-American adopted child to have
> undergone a halachic Jewish conversion or who was living a torah-observant
> life. What we discussed at the time was that when my son reached an age
> where he was interested in getting married, the rabbi might try to arrange a
> shidduch (loosely: arranged introduction for the purpose of marriage) of my
> son to a torah-observant Asian Jewish girl whose background is similar to
> his. If he can't find such a girl, he can't, but he would like to try.
>
>
Well, at some point I'd be happy to introduce him to my niece, who will
be Bat Mitzvah next October, and is (at least as far as I can tell) a
Torah-observant girl (she's got it all except the Asian descent). But
she's in central NJ, so their chances of meeting are not high right now.
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to sal...@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
Joel Shurkin
I have often wondered what will happen when these kids grow up, start
dating other Jews and bring them home to meet their families, sort of
the Jewish version of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner." Will they be
accepted? How will the Caucasian families react? I have no idea and
pray it will all turn out well. it will be a test of the community, I
think.
We have two adopted Chinese girls in our synagogue and one family mixed
American and Nigerian. The Chinese girls were all properly converted
(by C standards). They are lovely and very young. The American-Nigerian
girls are both splendid, wonderful kids, one now in high school. Their
mother is Jewish so their pedigree is not in question; their father
converted. I wonder what will happen to them? They would be quite
welcome in my family.
I don't know about Koreans, but there must be a substantial number of
Chinese adoptees in Jewish families and I wonder how they are getting
along.
DoD
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46a89ce0$0$20582$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Just out of curiosity, how would he find such a girl? Would he contact other
Synagogues and ask other Rabbis if they know of anybody?
David
Q
> On 2007-07-26 08:19:42 -0400, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Q" <quond...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
A few months ago, the Sunday NY Times ran a story called "A Chinese
Orphan's Journey to a Jewish Rite of Passage." If you haven't
already seen it, you can read it for free at: http://tinyurl.com/2nsmn4.
-- Q
Cached> --
Lee Ratner
>
> I have often wondered what will happen when these kids grow up, start
> dating other Jews and bring them home to meet their families, sort of
> the Jewish version of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner." Will they be
> accepted? How will the Caucasian families react? I have no idea and
> pray it will all turn out well. it will be a test of the community, I
> think.
My mom's dad came from a Sephardic family. When he started
dating girls in the 1930s most of them were Ashkenazi girls. According
to my mom, most of these girls parents, who were usually immigrants
from Eastern Europe, refused to recognize my grandad as Jewish because
there is no such thing as a Spanish Jew. I hope the 21st century is
better but it might not be.
> > We have two adopted Chinese girls in our synagogue and one family mixed
> American and Nigerian. The Chinese girls were all properly converted
> (by C standards). They are lovely and very young. The American-Nigerian
> girls are both splendid, wonderful kids, one now in high school. Their
> mother is Jewish so their pedigree is not in question; their father
> converted. I wonder what will happen to them? They would be quite
> welcome in my family.
They'll be accepted or rejected. If the rejection is strong
enough they might turn their backs on the Jewish people.
> I don't know about Koreans, but there must be a substantial number of
> Chinese adoptees in Jewish families and I wonder how they are getting
> along.
>
Some will be actively Jewish others will not be and might see
themselves more as whatever raised by Jews.
Q
> "Q" <quond...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Understood. I was explaining why I thought it had even occurred to
the editors of Noah Feldman's Alumni paper that his girlfriend --
later his wife -- might not be Jewish.
>Obviously, a non-Jewish Asian woman would
> not be a potential wife (or even a potential date) for my son. My son's
> first priority will be to find a religious Jewish wife, but the way he sees
> it, if she could be of Asian descent as well, so much the better.
That's quite sensible, because in a marriage, even small differences
can be very divisive, including what the parties are accustomed to
eating (such as applying *both* ketchup and mustard to a hot dog) and
how they pronounce different words (lots of brawls about that -- my
husband was from the Midwest. It's amazing how carried away people
can get when they think the English language - or their idea of the
English language - is being abused).
>The rabbi
> who performed his conversion stated at the time of the conversion that my
> son was not by any means the only Asian-American adopted child to have
> undergone a halachic Jewish conversion or who was living a torah-observant
> life.
In the small temple in the town where I live, a Japanese-American boy
recently celebrated his Bar Mitzvah (did I say that right?). And my
son was telling me last night about a Chinese-American man who works
in his office, who is the most fanatically frum person he has even
met.
> What we discussed at the time was that when my son reached an age
> where he was interested in getting married, the rabbi might try to arrange a
> shidduch (loosely: arranged introduction for the purpose of marriage) of my
> son to a torah-observant Asian Jewish girl whose background is similar to
> his. If he can't find such a girl, he can't, but he would like to try.
IMO, that is the sort of thing that modern religious communities ought
to be doing for their members but tend to forget all too often. This
may be because some of these congregations have grown too large to pay
attention, particularly ones in big cities.
One of my first jobs was as an advertising copywriter at the agency
formerly known as J. Walter Thompson Co., and I worked side by side
with a woman who was a very O Brit (who wore a wig to work). We had
the French's mustard account, and one of her jobs was to write the ads
that were to appear in the Jewish Daily Forward. One of the headlines
she wrote was that the combination of French's mustard with a kosher
hot dog was the perfect shidduch.
IMO, French's yellow mustard -- which was the only kind they made at
the time -- was (and is) inedible, guaranteed to spoil any hot dog you
put it on. They do make one now that's good on hot dogs, however.
-- Q
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
cindys
"Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f8abt6$r07$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
snip
>>
>>
>
> I have often wondered what will happen when these kids grow up, start
> dating other Jews and bring them home to meet their families, sort of the
> Jewish version of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner." Will they be accepted?
> How will the Caucasian families react? I have no idea and pray it will all
> turn out well. it will be a test of the community, I think.
In the frum community, you generally wouldn't encounter the "Guess Who's
Coming to Dinner" phenomen because the dates are all prescreened and
preapproved, so there aren't too many surprises. If my son were to meet a
girl in this manner, she and her family would have been well aware of my
son's race and background and been okay with that long before the
introduction. Sometimes introductions take place through friends or a couple
may meet at a simcha or something like that. You would generally not
encounter a situation where a son/daughter is dating someone whom the
parents have never met or know nothing about. There are very few surprises.
>
> We have two adopted Chinese girls in our synagogue and one family mixed
> American and Nigerian. The Chinese girls were all properly converted (by C
> standards). They are lovely and very young. The American-Nigerian girls
> are both splendid, wonderful kids, one now in high school. Their mother is
> Jewish so their pedigree is not in question; their father converted. I
> wonder what will happen to them? They would be quite welcome in my family.
We would welcome any nice halachically Jewish, torah-observant girl into our
family. The girl's race is not one of the criteria.
>
> I don't know about Koreans, but there must be a substantial number of
> Chinese adoptees in Jewish families and I wonder how they are getting
> along.
I suspect the majority of them marry Caucasians. The priority (for my son)
would be to find a girl who was either raised in a torah observant family or
became a BT (or converted halachically and is torah-observant). If she is
Asian, great. If not, so be it. Or to reverse the scenario, not every
torah-observant Caucasian girl (or her family) is going to be comfortable
with the idea of marrying a converted Asian Jew. If I had to guess, I would
say that most would not be. My son is aware of this. His answer is: "Don't
worry, ema, when the time comes, I will find the girl who is the right one
for me." But we have a long time to think about it
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote in message
news:m37ionp...@dauphin.the-leveys.us...
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>> All of this is irrelevant to us. Obviously, a non-Jewish Asian woman
>> would
>> not be a potential wife (or even a potential date) for my son. My son's
>> first priority will be to find a religious Jewish wife, but the way he
>> sees
>> it, if she could be of Asian descent as well, so much the better. The
>> rabbi
>> who performed his conversion stated at the time of the conversion that my
>> son was not by any means the only Asian-American adopted child to have
>> undergone a halachic Jewish conversion or who was living a
>> torah-observant
>> life. What we discussed at the time was that when my son reached an age
>> where he was interested in getting married, the rabbi might try to
>> arrange a
>> shidduch (loosely: arranged introduction for the purpose of marriage) of
>> my
>> son to a torah-observant Asian Jewish girl whose background is similar to
>> his. If he can't find such a girl, he can't, but he would like to try.
>>
>>
> Well, at some point I'd be happy to introduce him to my niece, who will
> be Bat Mitzvah next October, and is (at least as far as I can tell) a
> Torah-observant girl (she's got it all except the Asian descent). But
> she's in central NJ, so their chances of meeting are not high right now.
It's too soon. Give it 5 to 10 years. Then, we'll talk :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
snip
>
> In the small temple in the town where I live, a Japanese-American boy
> recently celebrated his Bar Mitzvah (did I say that right?). And my
> son was telling me last night about a Chinese-American man who works
> in his office, who is the most fanatically frum person he has even
> met.
Is there any possiblity that this man might be interested in e-mailing back
and forth with one or both of my sons? Especially for my younger son, I
think this would be a very positive connection.
>
snip
>
> One of my first jobs was as an advertising copywriter at the agency
> formerly known as J. Walter Thompson Co., and I worked side by side
> with a woman who was a very O Brit (who wore a wig to work). We had
> the French's mustard account, and one of her jobs was to write the ads
> that were to appear in the Jewish Daily Forward. One of the headlines
> she wrote was that the combination of French's mustard with a kosher
> hot dog was the perfect shidduch.
>
> IMO, French's yellow mustard -- which was the only kind they made at
> the time -- was (and is) inedible, guaranteed to spoil any hot dog you
> put it on. They do make one now that's good on hot dogs, however.
Hey, hey! Them's fighting words. French's yellow mustard was invented in my
hometown! When I was a little girl, a very popular school field trip was a
visit to the French's Mustard factory.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Joel Shurkin
Thanks for the response. i have the feeling the kid will do just fine.
j
--
Joel Shurkin
University of Alaska Fairbanks
----------------------------
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
Harry Weiss
Amazing I found something where I agree with Q and diagree with you.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
cindys
Thanks.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Q
> "Q" <quond...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1185465828....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> snip
>
>
>
> > In the small temple in the town where I live, a Japanese-American boy
> > recently celebrated his Bar Mitzvah (did I say that right?). And my
> > son was telling me last night about a Chinese-American man who works
> > in his office, who is the most fanatically frum person he has even
> > met.
>
> Is there any possiblity that this man might be interested in e-mailing back
> and forth with one or both of my sons? Especially for my younger son, I
> think this would be a very positive connection.
I will find out when my son returns from Europe and let you know by
email, if that is okay.
It seems like a good idea to me, but I don't really know anything else
about this guy except that he is Chinese and he is also frum.
>
>
>
> snip
>
>
>
> > One of my first jobs was as an advertising copywriter at the agency
> > formerly known as J. Walter Thompson Co., and I worked side by side
> > with a woman who was a very O Brit (who wore a wig to work). We had
> > the French's mustard account, and one of her jobs was to write the ads
> > that were to appear in the Jewish Daily Forward. One of the headlines
> > she wrote was that the combination of French's mustard with a kosher
> > hot dog was the perfect shidduch.
>
> > IMO, French's yellow mustard -- which was the only kind they made at
> > the time -- was (and is) inedible, guaranteed to spoil any hot dog you
> > put it on. They do make one now that's good on hot dogs, however.
>
> Hey, hey! Them's fighting words. French's yellow mustard was invented in my
> hometown! When I was a little girl, a very popular school field trip was a
> visit to the French's Mustard factory.
We used to buy French's mustard when I was a child. The alternative
was Gulden's, which was -- supposedly -- an antisemitic company. But I
always preferred by far the coarser mustard that used to be served at
the deli and even at most hot dog stands. I think it had that texture
because it contains horseradish. French's now makes a very good deli
mustard, but back then, they didn't know from corned beef and
pastrami.
They also made Chili-O, which continues to be a very good product.
The first time I visited Ohio with my husband we stopped at a hot dog
stand, and I was given a hot dog that had mustard and ketchup criss-
crossed down it. I was horrified -- they may as well have covered it
with whipped cream and chocolate sprinkles, it seemed that awful to
me.
At JWT, we also had the French's birdseed account. And one of the
things we did was order birds that were trained ab ovo to do bird
stunts for their TV commercials. Was the whole shebang based in
Rochester, or just the mustard part of the business?
Our field trip was to the Borden's Ice Cream factory. When my children
were growing up in Larchmont, NY, one class actually had a field trip
to Bloomingdale's.
J J Levin
news:Zkwoi.275$527...@newsfe12.lga...
> In the NY Times Sunday magazine (Sunday, 7/22) Noah Feldman tells about
> his modern-Orthodox upbringing and how his former school views his
> marriage to a non-Jewish woman.
>
Rabbi Dr. Norman Lamm, chancellor and former president of Yeshiva
University, has now replied to Noah Feldman via a web-only response in the
Jewish Daily Forward.
A Modern Orthodox friend sent me Dr. Lamm's reply. You can read it at:
http://www.forward.com/articles/11308/
Jay
> I accessed the story on the Times web site without using my password, so I
> think it's open to the public with no special subscription or payment.
>
> Jay
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22yeshiva-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
>
>
>
Shlomo Argamon
> "J J Levin" <jjle...@optonline.net> wrote in messagenews:Zkwoi.275$527...@newsfe12.lga...
>
> > In the NY Times Sunday magazine (Sunday, 7/22) Noah Feldman tells about
> > his modern-Orthodox upbringing and how his former school views his
> > marriage to a non-Jewish woman.
>
> Rabbi Dr. Norman Lamm, chancellor and former president of Yeshiva
> University, has now replied to Noah Feldman via a web-only response in the
> Jewish Daily Forward.
>
> A Modern Orthodox friend sent me Dr. Lamm's reply. You can read it at:
>
> http://www.forward.com/articles/11308/
And, by the way, Feldman *lied* in the piece - he was not cropped out
of the photo, and he knew it (and the NYT knew it) before the article
was published:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=14367
Lovely.
:-)BB!!
-Shlomo-
cycjec
> And, by the way, Feldman *lied* in the piece - he was not cropped out
> of the photo, and he knew it (and the NYT knew it) before the article
> was published:
> http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=14367
That's a relief. "Midevar sheker tirchat" Distance yourself from
falsehood.
Shemos, (2) Shemoth 23:7.
Tracy Hall Jr
follow ups would definitely be off topic so please take the discussion
elsewhere. hw ]
On Jul 24, 8:23 pm, YM <bar_kochba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> This
> was the source of Joe Lieberman (who is said to be observant) telling
> a reporter when he was running for President that "Judaism has no
> problem with intermarriage" (Mitt Romney has also been distorting
> Mormon theology in order to find favor with non-Mormon voters).
YM, It's off-topic, so please direct any follow-ups via email. I just
need to take issue with the assertion that Romney has been "distorting
Mormon theology to find favor with non-Mormon voters."
Recently conservative talk show host Jan Mickelson of Iowa's WHO 1040
chastised Romney for not being a "good Mormon" by failing to enforce
his religion's supposed doctrines in the public sphere. The cameras
kept rolling during the commercial break, creating a noteworthy
YouTube moment. If you have 20 minutes to spare, it's good political
theatre.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G9hydflwEQ
If you can only spare a couple of minutes, here's a good summary:
http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070809/OPINION01/708090383/-1/NEWS04
Bottom line: Rest assured that as president, Romney would never try to
institute "Mormon sharia. Know also, that religious tolerance is
expected of a "good Mormon."
Like the Rambam, we have 13 articles of faith. Our #11 states: "We
claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the
dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege,
let them worship how, where, or what they may."
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1/11#11
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr'gmail'com