rock climbing shoes?
Chris Kantarjiev
--
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Squirmingcoil36
since it's without a doubt something i'm going to do forever, well anyway i got
a good harness from a friend and since we'll be in the gym all winter all i
need to find is a good pair of shoes, i'm 17 so my foot is still growing a bit
and i really don't want to shell out my savings for shoes but i also want
something that's going to last if anyone has any suggestions let me know,
thanks in advance and take care
T.J.
porn...@my-deja.com
Climbing shoes don't last very long (the rubber, that is) if you're in
'em alot.
Maybe get some used or "second hand" shoes.
In article <20001109194708...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Michael Riches
> From: squirmi...@aol.com (Squirmingcoil36)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.climbing
> Date: 10 Nov 2000 00:47:08 GMT
> Subject: rock climbing shoes?
Get something that fits...unfortunately shoes are something that you will be
constantly changing anyway, that is if you plan on really excelling at as
many facets of the climbing world as possible. You'll end up with several
different types and brands of shoes. But, if you plan on being just an old
fart weekend warrior type (like me) that is a jack of all types master of
none, then the ole Kaukulators will do as good as any shoe to get you into
trouble...
Again, get a shoe that fits, something that is "not" toooo tight. This will
give you something to grow into and when you reach that Sharma level then
you'll know what you need and exactly how to size it...good luck.
The Rockrat...
Bob Austin
you saw their ad in climbing magazine because their website lists these same
models on sale for $79). This is a board lasted shoe so it should give you
plenty of wear. It's a discontinued model but a good all around shoe and at
a fair price. When they were first introduced a couple of years ago, they
retailed for around $150.
Regards,
Bob Austin
"Squirmingcoil36" <squirmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001109194708...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
A.MacNair
news:8ufi05$sac$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> whatever fits best. if them feets is still a growin', go cheap.
> Climbing shoes don't last very long (the rubber, that is) if you're
in
> 'em alot.
>
> Maybe get some used or "second hand" shoes.
Pornstarr is way right. As a newbie you should get second hand shoes
for trashing them in.
My 5.10 Spires lasted a whole 3 months! Now I aint complaining, since
I learned to climb basically in those shoes, and I know I made
hundreds of thousands of errors in them, thus fraying the rubber to
the point is is now: gigantic holes on the instep of my shoes. It just
hurts (financially I am woeful lately) that I have to go and drop
$100-120 on new shoes today.
In a way I look forward to tighter shoes than my Spires. I went with
comfort as a newbie and I think that was *totally* worthwhile for me
but now that I am climbing some pretty tiny edge routes, I want to get
a tighter shoe.
I especially recommend second-hand shoes because the gym, believe it
or not, will hurt your shoe more than climbing outdoors (depending on
given situation). Those gym walls are usually pretty rough and when
awkwardly "foot-slapping" your way up routes as you get better you
will fray the rubber pretty fast. I've had a number of vets tell me
this, and I'm inclined to believe them.
Good luck TJ
David Kastrup
> I especially recommend second-hand shoes because the gym, believe it
> or not, will hurt your shoe more than climbing outdoors (depending
> on given situation). Those gym walls are usually pretty rough and
> when awkwardly "foot-slapping" your way up routes as you get better
> you will fray the rubber pretty fast. I've had a number of vets tell
> me this, and I'm inclined to believe them.
Depends on the kind of rock you climb. My Mythoi have survived half a
year of gym and different rock types without noticeable impact. One
week of "vacation" in Southern France (Orpierre), with some of the
sharpest-featured rocks I have yet encountered (particularly the
Belleric crag), and both shoes are pretty much junked. About 10 days
after return my entire finger tips peeled off, too, but at least they
had the decency not to desert me while it counted.
--
David Kastrup Phone: +49-234-32-25570
Email: d...@neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de Fax: +49-234-32-14209
Institut für Neuroinformatik, Universitätsstr. 150, 44780 Bochum, Germany
Dawn Alguard
far have been discontinued (Mythos and Kaukulators are definitely
both gone). This is why (as I explain in my FAQ) it is so hard
to answer this question. Shoe manufacturers seem to change
models more frequently than car manufacturers.
Get something that fits your foot. If you get an expensive shoe
you can get it resoled. If you get a cheap shoe, you can either
resole it or throw it out. Anyone who climbs regularly ends up
owning several pairs of shoes. Nothing you buy will be wasted.
www.climbingshoes.com has some pretty cheap shoes (although they
used to be cheaper). I have the Kermits and like them just fine
but I'm not a shoe bigot.
BTW, having growing feet might be a great solution to the problem
of shoe stretch. If you can just grow your feet at the same rate
your shoes stretch, you'll always have a perfect fit.
Dawn
jason liebgott
but they are back for sure -
http://www.lasportiva.com/Inglese/Catalogo/Climbing/HomeClimbing.htm
I love them, I have narrow feet, so they make me happy.
Jason
porn...@my-deja.com
discontinued in Conneticut, but I believe they still exist elsewhere.
Sheeeesh
Porn "my mythos are gettin' thin" Starr
In article <8uhd8j$b62$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
jeffe...@my-deja.com
understand right, shoes, rope, and to a lesser degree, slings and some
chocks are essentially "consumables"; periodic replacement is part of
the price of climbing.
While I'm here, I have a q too. Since rock climbing is more a means to a
mountaineering end than my primary interest, what are some of the pros
and cons of various mountain/alpine boots when applied to rock climbing?
Jeff "or should I change into my slippers in the snow?" ers_mz
jc5...@my-deja.com
try buying ones which are "unlined" so they will stretch some. You can
probably get a pair of Saltic Spirits from Climb High at around $80.00
new, there are also similar shoes from EB and some other off name
brands and you can get similar entry level shoes from 5.10 for around
$99.00. Also try shopping around for closeouts, one in particular to
try is "Sierra Trading Post".
Jim Cormier
Cormier Mountaineering
Dawn Alguard
Dawn
porn...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Thank gawd. Dawn, don't scare me like that. Maybe they've been
> discontinued in Conneticut, but I believe they still exist elsewhere.
>
> Sheeeesh
>
> Porn "my mythos are gettin' thin" Starr
>
> In article <8uhd8j$b62$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> jason liebgott <jlie...@cardstore.com> wrote:
> > Mythos are still around, I think they were discontinued for a while -
> > but they are back for sure -
> > http://www.lasportiva.com/Inglese/Catalogo/Climbing/HomeClimbing.htm
> >
> > I love them, I have narrow feet, so they make me happy.
> >
> > Jason
> >
Steven Cherry
>My 5.10 Spires lasted a whole 3 months!
Wow, three months. You're right, it's all strength, not technique.
-steven-
--
<ste...@panix.com>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It also helps to have butterfly bandages, a good suture kit,
a thorough knowledge of first aid, and, as noted elsewhere,
a huge lack of common sense. -- DMT, on ice climbing
David Kastrup
> I went climbing for the first time a week ago today and i haven't
> missed a day since
Be careful with that attitude. You'll get better and your muscles
will build up quite faster at that rate than your sinews and tendons
can keep up with. Asking for injury.
Concentrate on routes that tax your body, not your fingers.
A.MacNair
<NGUO5.73421$78.22...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com> "A.MacNair"
<amac...@elyrium.com> writes:
>
> >My 5.10 Spires lasted a whole 3 months!
>
> Wow, three months. You're right, it's all strength, not technique.
Well give me an idea of how long they normally last.
IE: How many times do you go climbing, where do you go, what kind of shoe do
you have, how much wear, etc etc....
It would really be more helpful than your above joke.
Steven Cherry
It wasn't a joke. But trashing a pair of Spires, which is a shoe
that has a very thick upper and a piece of wood underneath your
foot, in three months suggests quite lack of technique, even if
you climbed every day in them.
If you need anecdotal data, however meaningless, my first pair of
shoes lasted about year before they needed some serious repairs.
That's with climbing 2-3 times a week, often in the gym. They're
still perfectly usable, after about three resolings, though I
keep them only to lend out to beginners.
-steven-
--
<ste...@panix.com>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I've seen hundreds of mindless things out there, but it takes
a rather profound level of stupidity to make me say anything.
-- Steve Miller, rec.climbing, in the When Do You Speak Up thread
A.MacNair
> >IE: How many times do you go climbing, where do you go, what kind
of shoe do
> >you have, how much wear, etc etc....
>
> >It would really be more helpful than your above joke.
>
> It wasn't a joke. But trashing a pair of Spires, which is a shoe
> that has a very thick upper and a piece of wood underneath your
> foot, in three months suggests quite lack of technique, even if
> you climbed every day in them.
I totally agree. This time I will go for a tighter shoe rather than
comfort.
> If you need anecdotal data, however meaningless, my first pair of
> shoes lasted about year before they needed some serious repairs.
> That's with climbing 2-3 times a week, often in the gym. They're
> still perfectly usable, after about three resolings, though I
> keep them only to lend out to beginners.
Perhaps once my technique improves my shoes will last longer. I never
denied my technique was, and still is, lacking. I think it's slowly
improving though.
A.MacNair
wrote in message
news:m2n1f79...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...
> > I went climbing for the first time a week ago today and i haven't
> > missed a day since
>
> Be careful with that attitude. You'll get better and your muscles
> will build up quite faster at that rate than your sinews and tendons
> can keep up with. Asking for injury.
>
> Concentrate on routes that tax your body, not your fingers.
By the way, I have built up some finger strength in the time since the
STW ratio thread to the point where I have been doing some short
two-finger pullup exercises. I have not experienced any problems so
far but I am worried about pushing it too far. I am not even sure that
doing two-finger pullups is helpful, it's just fun to do.
Also fun to do is climbing overhangs with arms only. I kind of realize
I must look ridiculous but it's a real challenge and what's more quite
enjoyable. I try to do it when other people are not around. I do not
want to be caught on those awkward moments when I am straining to do
that one-arm pull-up to the next hold. =P
David, are you originally from England working in Germany or is your
English simply that good?
Christian
jc5...@my-deja.com wrote:
> there are also similar shoes from EB and some other off name
> brands and you can get similar entry level shoes from 5.10 for around
> $99.00.
> Jim Cormier
> Cormier Mountaineering
Who woulda though, EB, the off name brand ;?)
Cheers,
Christian :?)
David Kastrup
> By the way, I have built up some finger strength in the time since the
> STW ratio thread to the point where I have been doing some short
> two-finger pullup exercises. I have not experienced any problems so
> far but I am worried about pushing it too far. I am not even sure that
> doing two-finger pullups is helpful, it's just fun to do.
>
> Also fun to do is climbing overhangs with arms only. I kind of realize
> I must look ridiculous but it's a real challenge and what's more quite
> enjoyable. I try to do it when other people are not around. I do not
> want to be caught on those awkward moments when I am straining to do
> that one-arm pull-up to the next hold. =P
Stuff like that hardly helps making you seem more qualified to
contribute to serious strength/technique discussions. Your pride in
isolated "feats" is simply too apparent.
> David, are you originally from England working in Germany or is your
> English simply that good?
I learnt English in a German grammar school, though I have to admit
that having an American mother around probably did no harm (I fared
decidedly better than with French). For what it's worth, I also
studied a bit of English for fun and passed what would amount to the
literary part of a BA exam. But I don't think that the level of my
everyday English is much out of the ordinary for younger Germans.
Julie
> "foot-slapping" your way up routes as you get better you will fray the
> rubber pretty fast.
Adrian,
I woke up on a quite favorable side of the bed this morning, so I will
share with you a piece of advice that someone once gave to me.
Incorporated into every element of climbing with a zen focus, it *is*
technique to me:
Climb with quiet feet.
Silently,
JSH
Kyri
mostly in the gym (easier on shoes). I finally trashed them at JTree
due to bad crack climbing technique. They were resuscitated via resole
and I gave them to a beginner friend.
In article <oXEP5.52863$1C6.2...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"A.MacNair" <amac...@elyrium.com> wrote:
> "Steven Cherry" <ste...@panix.com> wrote in message news:8uicg3> In
> <NGUO5.73421$78.22...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com> "A.MacNair"
> <amac...@elyrium.com> writes:
> >
> > >My 5.10 Spires lasted a whole 3 months!
> >
> > Wow, three months. You're right, it's all strength, not technique.
>
> Well give me an idea of how long they normally last.
>
> IE: How many times do you go climbing, where do you go, what kind of
shoe do
> you have, how much wear, etc etc....
>
> It would really be more helpful than your above joke.
>
>
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
Given the obvious evidence of poor footwork, I'd suggest that you
forget such pointless exercise and focus, instead, on getting just a
smidgen of technique. Like, placing yer feet on the holds carefully,
and not moving them.
I still have my first pair of climbing shoes in usable condition. I
used them for nearly 18 months, climbing at least once a week for
several hours in the gym. As I've not an abundance of finger strength,
I believe that I naturally developed decent footwork early. Julie's
suggestion to focus on climbing quietly (no thumping yer feet on and
off holds) is very valid. Also learning the proper way to smear helps.
BTW, this is a lot more help than you are really due, Adrian. I sure
hope yer 'tude is simply a matter of poor writing.
- Sumo
A.MacNair
news:8upct3$99f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Also fun to do is climbing overhangs with arms only. I kind of realize
> > I must look ridiculous but it's a real challenge and what's more quite
> > enjoyable. I try to do it when other people are not around. I do not
> > want to be caught on those awkward moments when I am straining to do
> > that one-arm pull-up to the next hold. =P
> >
>
> forget such pointless exercise and focus, instead, on getting just a
> smidgen of technique. Like, placing yer feet on the holds carefully,
> and not moving them.
Yes I am looking forward to working on that.
> I still have my first pair of climbing shoes in usable condition. I
> used them for nearly 18 months, climbing at least once a week for
> several hours in the gym. As I've not an abundance of finger strength,
> I believe that I naturally developed decent footwork early. Julie's
> suggestion to focus on climbing quietly (no thumping yer feet on and
> off holds) is very valid. Also learning the proper way to smear helps.
I really must be doing something seriously wrong.
> BTW, this is a lot more help than you are really due, Adrian. I sure
> hope yer 'tude is simply a matter of poor writing.
I don't understand. Do I really come across as arrogant? I don't intend this
at all. I only do the finger exercises because they are fun to do, not for
any other reason. I find it facsinating that my fingers can bear the weight
of my body. Did my last post sound like an arrogant boast? I am thinking of
giving up writing since I obviously seem to have no skill at that either.
A.MacNair
> Stuff like that hardly helps making you seem more qualified to
> contribute to serious strength/technique discussions. Your pride in
> isolated "feats" is simply too apparent.
Please don't think I have any pride in climbing. I took a lot of advice from
people and I am not even focusing on numbers. I am just climbing and having
fun. I asked you about these exercises because I wanted your honest opinion
and no other reason. I'm sorry if I came across as arrogant, it was not
intended at all.
> > David, are you originally from England working in Germany or is your
> > English simply that good?
>
> I learnt English in a German grammar school, though I have to admit
> that having an American mother around probably did no harm (I fared
> decidedly better than with French). For what it's worth, I also
> studied a bit of English for fun and passed what would amount to the
> literary part of a BA exam. But I don't think that the level of my
> everyday English is much out of the ordinary for younger Germans.
It's very impressive.
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
> > BTW, this is a lot more help than you are really due, Adrian. I sure
> > hope yer 'tude is simply a matter of poor writing.
>
> I don't understand. Do I really come across as arrogant?
Yes you do. At least to me; I'd suggest I'm not alone, though ;-)
> I don't intend this
> at all. I only do the finger exercises because they are fun to do,
not for
> any other reason. I find it facsinating that my fingers can bear the
weight
> of my body. Did my last post sound like an arrogant boast?
Not necessarily. Hence my attempt to be concilitory.
> I am thinking of
> giving up writing since I obviously seem to have no skill at that
either.
>
If yer being sincere here, I suggest maybe the effort needed is simply
restraint.
If not, quit posting.
Steven Cherry
>"A.MacNair" <amac...@elyrium.com> writes:
>> My 5.10 Spires lasted a whole 3 months! Now I aint complaining, since
>> I learned to climb basically in those shoes, and I know I made
>> hundreds of thousands of errors in them, thus fraying the rubber to
>> the point is is now: gigantic holes on the instep of my shoes.
>On the insteps. Weird.
A beginner will trash shoes in every possible way. My first shoes,
which had perfectly strong leather (though not as thick as the Spire)
got holes in the *top* of the shoe (easily patched).
It should be anticipated, and it's one reason I encourage novices
to by they Spire, since they're overbuilt enough to withstand all but
the greatest of abuse.
I think I owe a tiny apology to Adrian. I was the one who brought
up lack of technique, and I meant it more as a joke and a quick jab
than an excuse to bring up a thread that's mercifully over. (Though
I did think three months to trash a beefy shoe like the Spire must
be some kind of record.)
David Kastrup
> My 5.10 Spires lasted a whole 3 months! Now I aint complaining, since
> I learned to climb basically in those shoes, and I know I made
> hundreds of thousands of errors in them, thus fraying the rubber to
> the point is is now: gigantic holes on the instep of my shoes.
On the insteps. Weird. By far the most stress when climbing
seriously will be on the tips. One of the reason is that twisting
is unavoidable for good climbing, and you need to stand on the tip to
be able to do this reasonably well.
> I especially recommend second-hand shoes because the gym, believe it
> or not, will hurt your shoe more than climbing outdoors (depending
> on given situation). Those gym walls are usually pretty rough and
> when awkwardly "foot-slapping" your way up routes as you get better
> you will fray the rubber pretty fast.
"Foot-slapping"? Can almost always be avoided by twisting in
appropriately, thus taking the weight of the foot. Other
possibilities are foot changes and a few balancing techniques.
And even if you *do* have to work friction in peacemeal, you don't
have to fray your shoe if you keep moving to the phases where the foot
is actually off the wall.
Dawn Alguard
>
> I really must be doing something seriously wrong.
To provide another data point, I *still* manage to wear through a
pair of shoes every 3 months. My problem is dragging my toes, or
"paddling". I put holes in the tops of the toes and have to get
my shoes re-randed every time I get them re-soled.
Despite that, I think I have decent footwork. There are a lot of
aspects to good footwork and not dragging your toes is only one
of them. I'm trying to concentrate on not paddling (especially
in the gym - it's the friction paint that gets you) but sometimes
paddling is exactly what you need to reach that next hold with
the strength you have available.
Don't sweat it too much Adrian. Steven's right that beginners
will go through shoes in every way imaginable.
> I don't understand. Do I really come across as arrogant?
You've been doing so much better lately. Really. Sometimes
Jeremy gets unnecessarily grumpy.
Dawn
Jay Tanzman
"A.MacNair" <amac...@elyrium.com> wrote:
> <porn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8ufi05$sac$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > whatever fits best. if them feets is still a growin', go cheap.
> > Climbing shoes don't last very long (the rubber, that is) if you're
> in
> > 'em alot.
> >
> > Maybe get some used or "second hand" shoes.
>
> Pornstarr is way right. As a newbie you should get second hand shoes
> for trashing them in.
>
> I learned to climb basically in those shoes, and I know I made
> hundreds of thousands of errors in them, thus fraying the rubber to
> hurts (financially I am woeful lately) that I have to go and drop
> $100-120 on new shoes today.
>
> In a way I look forward to tighter shoes than my Spires. I went with
> comfort as a newbie and I think that was *totally* worthwhile for me
> but now that I am climbing some pretty tiny edge routes, I want to get
> a tighter shoe.
>
> or not, will hurt your shoe more than climbing outdoors (depending on
> given situation). Those gym walls are usually pretty rough and when
> awkwardly "foot-slapping" your way up routes as you get better you
> this, and I'm inclined to believe them.
Minority opinion: I disagree with the usual advice given to beginners
to get sturdy oversized beginner shoes. On the one hand, we tell
beginners how important footwork is, while, on the other, we advise them
to wear shoes that hinder their learning good footwork!
The typical beginner shoe lacks the sensitivity needed for learning good
footwork. Good technique requires using the feet almost as a second
pair of hands. The toes must be able to grab holds in order to pull the
hips into the wall. This fundamental face-climbing skill is unintuitive
to most beginners and is difficult to learn using shoes that do not
permit the wearer to feel the footholds they are trying to use.
When I see a beginner struggling with foot technique, I almost always
suggest that they make it a priority to buy a good pair of well-fitting,
sensitive shoes, preferrably slippers. Once they can actually feel the
holds, they often experience immediate improvement in their technique.
-Jay
Julie
> The toes must be able to grab holds in order to pull the hips into the
> wall. This fundamental face-climbing skill is unintuitive to most
> beginners and is difficult to learn using shoes that do not permit the
> wearer to feel the footholds they are trying to use.
>
> preferrably slippers.
Quite a good point. Slippers (as opposed to board-lasts) also demand and
entrain a lot of leg/calf strength, that goes hand in hand with good
footwork.
Adrian, take note of the feet-as-hands comparison. If your shoes show a lot
of wear on the *instep*, as you said, then what you're trying to do is
somewhat analagous to picking up small objects with your palm instead of
your fingers. IE, instep wear indicates that you may be using the wrong
part of your foot. Someone else mentioned above, that you should eventually
wear out the toes soonest; that fits with the idea of using your toes as
fingers on holds. Kinda like a monkey.
JSH
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
> pair of hands. The toes must be able to grab holds in order to pull
the
> hips into the wall. This fundamental face-climbing skill is
unintuitive
> to most beginners and is difficult to learn using shoes that do not
> permit the wearer to feel the footholds they are trying to use.
>
> suggest that they make it a priority to buy a good pair of well-
fitting,
> sensitive shoes, preferrably slippers. Once they can actually feel
the
> holds, they often experience immediate improvement in their technique.
>
> -Jay
>
Bullshit, Jay. The stiffest, most tactile-challenged climbing shoe you
could imagine is a whole lot more sensitive than what said newbie is
used to. The problem with most newbies not having good footwork is
because a) they're new at it, and b) doing arm-intensive movements is a
lot of fun and we all like doing fun things, don't we.
I started with a board-lasted shoe; lernt footwork just fine by
actually trying to. I suggest the same.
- Sumo
Jay Tanzman
And you suggest that they will learn foot technique better while
handicapped with insensitive shoes? Bullshit, Jeremy. Would you have
them learn hand techniqe by wearing gloves?
> and b) doing arm-intensive movements is a
> lot of fun and we all like doing fun things, don't we.
What is so "fun" about arm-intensive moves? Beginners get satisfaction
by successfully getting up routes, by learning new technique, by
improving; conversely, they get frustrated by plateaus -- not much
different from advanced climbers. Why hinder their progress with some
ill-fitting antiquated insensitive piece-of-shit board-lasted trad shoe?
> I started with a board-lasted shoe;
So did I. The venerable Boreal Fire.
> lernt footwork just fine by
> actually trying to.
I don't know how well you climb or how good your footwork really is. My
experience is that when I switched to a more technical shoe, my face
climbing improved two letter grades instantly. I have observed dozens
of beginner and intermediate climbers struggle with poor footwork using
insensitive shoes. Their problems are almost always the same: They
don't how to pull on small holds with their toes. When they switch to
slippers, their climbing improves almost instantaneously becuse they can
finally feel the rock.
> I suggest the same.
Why? What's the point?
-Jay
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
Dawn Alguard <da...@tradgirl.com> wrote:
> "A.MacNair" wrote:
> >
> > I really must be doing something seriously wrong.
>
> To provide another data point, I *still* manage to wear through a
> pair of shoes every 3 months. My problem is dragging my toes, or
> "paddling". I put holes in the tops of the toes and have to get
> my shoes re-randed every time I get them re-soled.
>
> Despite that, I think I have decent footwork. There are a lot of
> aspects to good footwork and not dragging your toes is only one
> of them. I'm trying to concentrate on not paddling (especially
> in the gym - it's the friction paint that gets you) but sometimes
> paddling is exactly what you need to reach that next hold with
> the strength you have available.
Um, gotta argue a bit... There's a big difference in smearing (even
rand smearing) and "paddling". You may not see it as a limiting factor,
Dawn, but it makes a difference if you place your foot precisely or
not. Friction paint in the gym is very good for teaching you how to
smear (even on overhangs).
> Don't sweat it too much Adrian. Steven's right that beginners
> will go through shoes in every way imaginable.
No doubt there; I just wanted to point out that it isn't unavoidable
(that is, poor footwork).
> > I don't understand. Do I really come across as arrogant?
>
> You've been doing so much better lately. Really.
Hence my reply.
> Sometimes
> Jeremy gets unnecessarily grumpy.
I don't understand. Do I really come across as grumpy? ;-)
Whether or not it is unnecessary is up fer debate, though...
> Dawn
>
- Sumo, grumpy old man
Kyri
I agree in principle with Jay, that it doesn't make sense to start off
with shoes so bad that they hinder your technical progress.
However, when I started with Spires, despite their being board-lasted
(by the way, are you sure about that?), I found that there were holds
that were impossibly painful to stand on. That suggests that for me
anyway they were not overly insensitive. I also believe to this day that
they smeared just as well as my current shoes, Syncros, do, and better
than my Kaukulators.
What Spires did not do for me is edge well. When I got Syncros my edging
skills improved noticeably. But when I was a beginner, I'm not sure I
had the foot strength/technique to edge small holds in any case.
I think that the right climbing shoes vary a lot for each person and,
like with many other things in life, there is no One True Way.
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
> And you suggest that they will learn foot technique better while
> handicapped with insensitive shoes? Bullshit, Jeremy.
Nope. I'm suggesting that for a new climber, slippers are of very
little help in learning footwork.
> Would you have
> them learn hand techniqe by wearing gloves?
Are you suggesting that board-lasted shoes = climbing with gloves? I
don't.
> > and b) doing arm-intensive movements is a
> > lot of fun and we all like doing fun things, don't we.
>
> What is so "fun" about arm-intensive moves? Beginners get
satisfaction
> by successfully getting up routes, by learning new technique, by
> improving;
Our oft-flamed Mr. McNair is a great example of what I'm talking about.
> conversely, they get frustrated by plateaus -- not much
> different from advanced climbers. Why hinder their progress with some
> ill-fitting antiquated insensitive piece-of-shit board-lasted trad
shoe?
>
Who said anything about a poorly-fit shoe?
> > I started with a board-lasted shoe;
>
> So did I. The venerable Boreal Fire.
>
> > lernt footwork just fine by
> > actually trying to.
>
> I don't know how well you climb or how good your footwork really is.
My
> experience is that when I switched to a more technical shoe, my face
> climbing improved two letter grades instantly. I have observed dozens
> of beginner and intermediate climbers struggle with poor footwork
using
> insensitive shoes. Their problems are almost always the same: They
> don't how to pull on small holds with their toes.
No; the problem is almost always failure to place their feet precisely.
> When they switch to
> slippers, their climbing improves almost instantaneously becuse they
can
> finally feel the rock.
I freely admit there is a benefit to slippers; my point is that the
usual new climber will not be benefitted tremendously by them. And,
since they are easier to trash, will cost them more. When should a
climber upgrade to a more sensitive shoe? Some sooner than others...
>
> -Jay
>
- Sumo
Jay Tanzman
Kyri <ky...@usa.net> wrote:
> snip: Sumo and Jay arguing about shoes
>
> I agree in principle with Jay, that it doesn't make sense to start off
> with shoes so bad that they hinder your technical progress.
>
> However, when I started with Spires, despite their being board-lasted
> (by the way, are you sure about that?),
Five-Ten Spires are not board lasted. All Five-Ten shoes are slip
lasted.
> I found that there were holds
> that were impossibly painful to stand on. That suggests that for me
> anyway they were not overly insensitive.
It suggests to me that your shoes didn't fit well. "Sensitive" means
that you can feel the rock through the sole.
> I also believe to this day
that
> they smeared just as well as my current shoes, Syncros, do, and better
> than my Kaukulators.
Smearing isn't really the issue for most modern face climbing.
> What Spires did not do for me is edge well. When I got Syncros my
edging
> skills improved noticeably. But when I was a beginner, I'm not sure I
> had the foot strength/technique to edge small holds in any case.
Technical edging is not really the issue either. It's a rather
specialized technique, but not what I would consider the key to
competent face climbing.
This is The Move: In order to climb vertical to steep faces, you have to
use your toes effectively. Being able to grab a small hold with your
toe and _pull_ on it is possibly the most important technique in face
climbing. It is the chief technique used to hold the body into the
wall, to shift weight over the foot, and to free up a hand to make a
static move to the next hold. This is different from edging, in which
the foot is weighted and you stand up on it.
> I think that the right climbing shoes vary a lot for each person ...
Obviously, they do, but, I've yet to see a gym or face climber whose
technique didn't improve dramatically when he switched to a more
sensitive shoe.
-Jay
Kyri
Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> Five-Ten Spires are not board lasted. All Five-Ten shoes are slip
> lasted.
That's what I thought.
> > I found that there were holds
> > that were impossibly painful to stand on. That suggests that for me
> > anyway they were not overly insensitive.
>
> It suggests to me that your shoes didn't fit well. "Sensitive" means
> that you can feel the rock through the sole.
Exactly. I could feel the rock through the sole, and it hurt. I think
the problem was my feet needing to toughen up rather than my shoes.
> > I also believe to this day
> that
> > they smeared just as well as my current shoes, Syncros, do, and
better
> > than my Kaukulators.
>
> Smearing isn't really the issue for most modern face climbing.
I guess I haven't done much "modern face climbing", then, because I find
myself smearing quite a bit, both on real rock and indoors.
>
> Technical edging is not really the issue either. It's a rather
> specialized technique, but not what I would consider the key to
> competent face climbing.
>
> This is The Move... (snip)
You're making it sound like that one move (which I think is VERY
technical, and which I have done rarely if at all; maybe I'm not a
competent face climber) is the only component of good footwork
technique. Surely that isn't quite what you mean? I mean, smearing
doesn't matter, edging doesn't matter, it's ALL this pulling yourself
onto the hold with your toe thing?
Have you tried Scarpa Paranoias? They seem like they were made for the
move you're describing.
--K
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Five-Ten Spires are not board lasted. All Five-Ten shoes are slip
> lasted.
>
Huecos? Newtons?
> Smearing isn't really the issue for most modern face climbing.
I disagree. But I think I understand where you're heading.
> Technical edging is not really the issue either. It's a rather
> specialized technique, but not what I would consider the key to
> competent face climbing.
Ah, this is where we greatly disagree. To me, this is where face
climbing _starts_. Vertical before overhanging...
> This is The Move: In order to climb vertical to steep faces, you have
to
> use your toes effectively. Being able to grab a small hold with your
> toe and _pull_ on it is possibly the most important technique in face
> climbing. It is the chief technique used to hold the body into the
> wall, to shift weight over the foot, and to free up a hand to make a
> static move to the next hold. This is different from edging, in which
> the foot is weighted and you stand up on it.
>
And I posit that most moderate routes will have little use for such
techniques. Edging and smearing are far more useful for moderate
routes. Remember that we are talking about rank beginners here.
> > I think that the right climbing shoes vary a lot for each person ...
>
> Obviously, they do, but, I've yet to see a gym or face climber whose
> technique didn't improve dramatically when he switched to a more
> sensitive shoe.
>
I agree; but I don't think they should start there. Kinda like learning
to drive in a Ferrari. Sure does handle better than the average car,
but most new drivers aren't going to be benefitted, and wrecking the
Testarossa is a whole lot more expensive...
> -Jay
>
- Sumo
Irishman
"Jeremy the Sumo Climber" wrote
>
> Bullshit, Jay. The stiffest, most tactile-challenged climbing shoe you
> could imagine is a whole lot more sensitive than what said newbie is
> used to. The problem with most newbies not having good footwork is
> lot of fun and we all like doing fun things, don't we.
>
> actually trying to. I suggest the same.
> - Sumo
FWIW, my own experience is different from yours. My old spires wouldn't
edge worth a darn, so I could never trust my footwork. This forced me to do
the pull up thing in situations were I should have been weighting my feet.
It's been a hard habit to break even now that I have better performing
shoes. I wonder if in my case, had I known what would be the right shoe to
get, would I be further along at this point. In fact, I wonder if some of
the damage to my finger tendons, due to pulling down crimpers, would have
been attenuated with better shoes.
Irishman
Inez Drixelius
> Smearing isn't really the issue for most modern face climbing.
Surely you jest!!
> Technical edging is not really the issue either. It's a rather
> specialized technique, but not what I would consider the key to
> competent face climbing.
Surely you jest!!
> This is The Move: In order to climb vertical to steep faces, you have to
> use your toes effectively. Being able to grab a small hold with your
> toe and _pull_ on it is possibly the most important technique in face
> climbing.
Only one component of many, but a good point.
I've yet to see a gym or face climber whose
> technique didn't improve dramatically when he switched to a more
> sensitive shoe.
I have seen shitty climbers in the finest shoes show no improvement
whatsoever and I have seen good climbers in shoes I wouldn't do a back
country slog in climb so incredibly well, I just wanted to weep.
You are oversimplifying things, Jay.
--
Inez Drixelius
Berkeley, California
Theresa Ho
<jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
Jay wrote:
>Why hinder their progress with some
>ill-fitting antiquated insensitive piece-of-shit board-lasted trad shoe?
That's the advice they keep getting here at least. New to climbing? Go
get a really *ill-fitting* shoe. Just because shoes are stiff doesn't
mean that they won't fit well.
I think this gets back to the issue of figuring out what your weaknesses
are. For a beginner that hasn't ever thought about placing his/her feet
precisely, that extra sensitivity may not buy them much as they struggle
to hit relatively big holds with any part of their foot at all. At the
same time, the reduced durability in a thinner shoe means you burn through
shoes much faster, which I guess is no big deal if you're rich enough to
do that. The same is true for a really tight fit. Worth it if you think
that the added foot sensitivity would make a difference in your climbing,
not worth it if you can't climb routes that don't have parking lot ledges
on them anyway.
>My
>experience is that when I switched to a more technical shoe, my face
>climbing improved two letter grades instantly.
Me too. I love the extra sensitivity in the Mythos. I don't know you or
what your footwork is like, but do you think it would be safe to say that
your footwork is somewhat better than that of your average beginner?
T - looking for a new pair of 'insensitive piece-of-shit board-lasted trad
shoes' with ankle protection cuz my feet get tired after about 8-10 trad
pitches, especially when I have to share carrying a pack, and my ankles
get ripped to hell in OWs.
Jay Tanzman
inez...@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Inez Drixelius) wrote:
> In article <8us59o$id1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Jay Tanzman
> <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > Smearing isn't really the issue for most modern face climbing.
>
> Surely you jest!!
>
> > Technical edging is not really the issue either. It's a rather
> > specialized technique, but not what I would consider the key to
> > competent face climbing.
>
> Surely you jest!!
>
> > This is The Move: In order to climb vertical to steep faces, you
have to
> > use your toes effectively. Being able to grab a small hold with
your
> > toe and _pull_ on it is possibly the most important technique in
face
> > climbing.
>
> Only one component of many, but a good point.
>
> I've yet to see a gym or face climber whose
> > technique didn't improve dramatically when he switched to a more
> > sensitive shoe.
>
> I have seen shitty climbers in the finest shoes show no improvement
> whatsoever and I have seen good climbers in shoes I wouldn't do a back
> country slog in climb so incredibly well, I just wanted to weep.
>
> You are oversimplifying things, Jay.
Of course I am. Still, if I had to pick one technique that is key to
climbing faces it's the place-your-toe-on-the-little-hold-and-pull move.
Awfully tough to do when you can't feel the hold. And if you can't do
this move, you are dead in the water.
-Jay
Dawn Alguard
>
> it makes a difference if you place your foot precisely
I agree with you. I was talking about that extra intermediate
push against the wall with your toe as you're making a long move
up. Perhaps paddling was the wrong word.
Dawn
Jay Tanzman
ropeg...@hotmail.com (Theresa Ho) wrote:
> In article <8us217$fef$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Jay Tanzman
> <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> Jay wrote:
>
> >Why hinder their progress with some
> >ill-fitting antiquated insensitive piece-of-shit board-lasted trad
shoe?
>
> That's the advice they keep getting here at least. New to climbing?
Go
> get a really *ill-fitting* shoe. Just because shoes are stiff doesn't
> mean that they won't fit well.
I am always hearing new climbers being advised to buy strong,
comfortable shoes, the theory being that beginners will most value
comfort and economy. My observations of beginners, though, is that they
technically outgrow their first pair of shoes before they wear them out.
Of course, they don't realize this because they have yet to experience
the benefit of a more sensitive shoe.
I've convinced about a half dozen beginners to go out and buy slippers.
When they start climbing in better shoes, you can see the improvement
immediately. And most importantly, _they_ see the improvement. I am
convinced that we are handicapping beginners by putting them in cheap,
stiff, insensitive, durable shoes. Maybe these have some value during a
climbers first few weeks when they are really flailing, but that is
about all.
> I think this gets back to the issue of figuring out what your
weaknesses
> are. For a beginner that hasn't ever thought about placing his/her
feet
> precisely, that extra sensitivity may not buy them much as they
struggle
> to hit relatively big holds with any part of their foot at all.
Yeah, but nowadays, with gyms and sport climbing, a relatively
coordinated new climber is going to get past this stage very quickly,
some in a matter of days.
> At
the
> same time, the reduced durability in a thinner shoe means you burn
through
> shoes much faster, which I guess is no big deal if you're rich enough
to
> do that.
You don't have to be rich to get your shoes resoled, and I contend that
most beginners would gladly pay the extra money in order to gain the
satisfaction of climbing better.
> >My
> >experience is that when I switched to a more technical shoe, my face
> >climbing improved two letter grades instantly.
>
> Me too. I love the extra sensitivity in the Mythos. I don't know you
or
> what your footwork is like, but do you think it would be safe to say
that
> your footwork is somewhat better than that of your average beginner?
Well, I hope it is! My advice to go right into good shoes, though, is
not based only on what I experienced, but on those beginners who I have
convinced to switch to better shoes whose technique instantly has
improved when -- voila -- they could feel footholds better.
> T - looking for a new pair of 'insensitive piece-of-shit board-lasted
trad
> shoes' with ankle protection cuz my feet get tired after about 8-10
trad
> pitches, especially when I have to share carrying a pack, and my
ankles
> get ripped to hell in OWs.
You could do worse than those old indestructable Fires. Ever notice how
many of those are still around?
Inez Drixelius
Ah, Theresita, you're the best! Your whine is genuine French
Bordeaux--want my old worn out chick-specific 5.10's? They are black,
because, you know, women don't climb multipitch trad and boy, they don't
show the dirt one little bit.
Try ace bandages on knees and ankles. Undercling uses them in chimneys.
Then, at night on that forced bivy, when it gets real cold, you can rap
the bandages around your little tete and voila, tres chic alors, your
chapeau!
I'm serious.
Chick
Inez Drixelius
<jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Of course I am. Still, if I had to pick one technique that is key to
> climbing faces it's the place-your-toe-on-the-little-hold-and-pull move.
> Awfully tough to do when you can't feel the hold. And if you can't do
> this move, you are dead in the water.
But if you can smear and edge you can peddle (or paddle, Dawn, I know
exactly what you mean) like a dog and perhaps not drown.
madd...@my-deja.com
>Jay Tanzman wrote:
>>Being able to grab a small hold with your
>>toe and _pull_ on it is possibly the most important technique in face
>>climbing.
That's arguable but I'd admit that it is one of many important
techniques.
>And I posit that most moderate routes will have little use for such
>techniques. Edging and smearing are far more useful for moderate
>routes. Remember that we are talking about rank beginners here.
I know of route that is 5.8 if you pull with the right foot at the crux
but most people consider it 5.9, because they don't. I can do the move
with hiking boots on, but only because I learned to do it in slippers.
I would always argue that technique is more important than equipment
but I've seen many relatively inexperienced climbers learn to use their
feet better by wearing slippers. Since the slipper gives little
support unless sized hideously tight, one is forced to climb with one's
toes more.
I don't think I'd recommend a newbie to buy slippers as their first
shoe unless I thought their feet were relatively strong, but I
certainly would recommend a slipper as a second shoe.
Mad 'shoe sale' Dog
Kyri
climbing technique, and not just a flailing sort of thing that I do
because I'm short and inflexible. (: To the observer, it probably looks
like an earwig in a bathtub (little limbs paddling wildly) in any case.
--Kyri "No, silly, I'm doing that on *purpose*"
In article <3A11AEEE...@tradgirl.com>,
Dawn Alguard <da...@tradgirl.com> wrote:
> Jeremy the Sumo Climber wrote:
> >
> > it makes a difference if you place your foot precisely
>
> I agree with you. I was talking about that extra intermediate
> push against the wall with your toe as you're making a long move
> up. Perhaps paddling was the wrong word.
>
> Dawn
>
Rob Williams
Inez Drixelius wrote:
> Try ace bandages on knees and ankles. Undercling uses them in chimneys.
> Then, at night on that forced bivy, when it gets real cold, you can rap
> the bandages around your little tete and voila, tres chic alors, your
> chapeau!
>
> I'm serious.
>
> Chick
Did Mark Twight pick this up from Undercling?
If you're going to "rap" (I prefer at least a 7mm static line) an ace bandage
around my "little tete", Inez, you better pack a lunch. You're gonna need it on
that forced bivy.
Rob "you're chateau or mine?"
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
Dawn Alguard <da...@tradgirl.com> wrote:
> Jeremy the Sumo Climber wrote:
> >
> > it makes a difference if you place your foot precisely
>
> I agree with you. I was talking about that extra intermediate
> push against the wall with your toe as you're making a long move
> up. Perhaps paddling was the wrong word.
>
> Dawn
>
Rand smear. Still helps to do it precisely ;-)
- Sumo
Inez Drixelius
<rwil...@martinbischoff.com> wrote:
> If you're going to "rap" (I prefer at least a 7mm static line) an ace bandage
> around my "little tete", Inez, you better pack a lunch.
I'd better go back to school and learn how to spell. On the other hand,
it could have been intentional. That's right, I meant it, I really meant
it!
Inez
I don't do lunch
Hardman Knott
Jeremy the Sumo Climber <jpul...@extensity.com> wrote:
> Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Five-Ten Spires are not board lasted. All Five-Ten shoes are
slip
> > lasted.
> >
>
> Huecos? Newtons?
Sorry Sumo,
My Newtons, and all other Five-Ten shoes are slip-lasted.
Five-Ten does not make a board-lasted shoe.
FWIW, I started climbing in the gym using a pair of Diablos
borrowed from a friend.
Let me tell you, bulling up a 10b in the worst style imaginable
my first time out had nothing at all to do with any benifits of
these particular shoes!
In fact, the super stiff board lasted sole and inflexibilty
made me overgrip the holds even more, since I couldn't
trust my feet at all, 'cause they kept blowing off the holds.
(they would have anyway; these shoes exacerbated the problem)
About my 4th time climbing, I tried a pair of Moccasymns,
and the difference was unbelievable!
I could actually feel the holds, and the rubber actually stuck!
I didn't climb any harder grades all of a sudden, but I was able
to relax my death-grip somewhat.
With all this spray about Five-Ten shoes, I figure they owe me
a pair about now...Do they have a sponsorship program for
shirtless gym-poseurs telling everyone how great their shoes
are?
Hardman Knott
David Kastrup
> Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > What is so "fun" about arm-intensive moves? Beginners get
> satisfaction
> > by successfully getting up routes, by learning new technique, by
> > improving;
>
> Our oft-flamed Mr. McNair is a great example of what I'm talking about.
Actually, I derive far greater satisfaction from being able to twist
into a proper Egyptian and reach up smoothly, effortlessly and
statically for a hold on a serious overhang than I could from doing
some weird frontal one-handed dynamic brutal pull-up-and-snatch action
that carries the definite label "arm-intensive" printed all over it.
--
David Kastrup Phone: +49-234-32-25570
Email: d...@neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de Fax: +49-234-32-14209
Institut für Neuroinformatik, Universitätsstr. 150, 44780 Bochum, Germany
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
>
> Sorry Sumo,
> My Newtons, and all other Five-Ten shoes are slip-lasted.
> Five-Ten does not make a board-lasted shoe.
>
Hmm. I had thought otherwise, but am open to being wrong on this ;-)
> FWIW, I started climbing in the gym using a pair of Diablos
> borrowed from a friend.
> Let me tell you, bulling up a 10b in the worst style imaginable
> my first time out had nothing at all to do with any benifits of
> these particular shoes!
Oh shut up. Like anyone that can get up a 10b their first time up has
anything to add to this conversation ;-P
>
> Hardman Knott
>
- Sumo, hrumph...
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
David Kastrup <d...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
> Jeremy the Sumo Climber <jpul...@extensity.com> writes:
>
> > Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > What is so "fun" about arm-intensive moves? Beginners get
> > satisfaction
> > > by successfully getting up routes, by learning new technique, by
> > > improving;
> >
> > Our oft-flamed Mr. McNair is a great example of what I'm talking
about.
>
> Actually, I derive far greater satisfaction from being able to twist
> into a proper Egyptian and reach up smoothly, effortlessly and
> statically for a hold on a serious overhang than I could from doing
> some weird frontal one-handed dynamic brutal pull-up-and-snatch action
> that carries the definite label "arm-intensive" printed all over it.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
Me too. How does this relate to beginner footwork again?
- Sumo
Kyri
android.
--Kyri, currently working 10b on my good days
In article <8usg2g$sde$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Jeremy the Sumo Climber <jpul...@extensity.com> wrote:
>
> > FWIW, I started climbing in the gym using a pair of Diablos
> > borrowed from a friend.
> > Let me tell you, bulling up a 10b in the worst style imaginable
> > my first time out had nothing at all to do with any benifits of
> > these particular shoes!
>
> Oh shut up. Like anyone that can get up a 10b their first time up has
> anything to add to this conversation ;-P
>
> >
> > Hardman Knott
> >
>
> - Sumo, hrumph...
>
Theresa Ho
inez...@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Inez Drixelius) wrote:
>Try ace bandages on knees and ankles. Undercling uses them in chimneys.
>Then, at night on that forced bivy, when it gets real cold, you can rap
>the bandages around your little tete and voila, tres chic alors, your
>chapeau!
kneepads = hat
rope = blanket
pull-out foam pad and pack = bed
partner = self-stowing, self-propelled hand and foot warmer
Have I missed anything?
>I'm serious.
Oh, OK. Do the bandages go over or inside your shoes for the ankle
wraps? I have *taped* my ankles before (usually after they look like meat
already anyway) but it seems like ace bandages would get bulky quickly.
T (am I supposed to start a new thread in order to ask this question?)
olga_c...@my-deja.com
> >
> > Sorry Sumo,
> > My Newtons, and all other Five-Ten shoes are slip-lasted.
> > Five-Ten does not make a board-lasted shoe.
> >
>
> Hmm. I had thought otherwise, but am open to being wrong on this ;-)
You are right on this one, I just got high top board lasted 5-10
crack shoes in the mail from rei-outlet, They are discontinued.
They look sort of like la sportiva kaukulators only yellowish-green.
They don't fit so I have to return them. :(
Forgot the name but starts with "A"
Olga
Kyri
In article <8usklm$7s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Hardman Knott
olga_c...@my-deja.com wrote:
> You are right on this one, I just got high top board lasted 5-10
> crack shoes in the mail from rei-outlet, They are discontinued.
Nice try. Discontinued models don't count.
Also note that I said *make* and not *made*,
if you really want to split hairs...
Hardman Knott
olga_c...@my-deja.com
Hardman Knott <hardma...@my-deja.com> wrote:
...
> Nice try. Discontinued models don't count.
> Also note that I said *make* and not *made*,
> if you really want to split hairs...
>
> Hardman Knott
Well, I tried ...
BTW: I've never seen these sold anywhere else.
Olga
David Kastrup
> In article <m2em0em...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,
> David Kastrup <d...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, I derive far greater satisfaction from being able to twist
> > into a proper Egyptian and reach up smoothly, effortlessly and
> > statically for a hold on a serious overhang than I could from doing
> > some weird frontal one-handed dynamic brutal pull-up-and-snatch action
> > that carries the definite label "arm-intensive" printed all over it.
>
> Me too. How does this relate to beginner footwork again?
The latter was a description how I had a beginner seen "bouldering"
the same move (or rather, movement to the same hold) as that I
described before. Part of the Egyptian is proper footwork.
Steven Cherry
>I am always hearing new climbers being advised to buy strong,
>comfortable shoes, the theory being that beginners will most value
>comfort and economy. My observations of beginners, though, is that they
>technically outgrow their first pair of shoes before they wear them out.
>Of course, they don't realize this because they have yet to experience
>the benefit of a more sensitive shoe.
>I've convinced about a half dozen beginners to go out and buy slippers.
The theory is that beginners will not enjoy most of the benefits of
sensitive shoes but they will "enjoy" most of the disadvantages.
I've been selling climbing shoes for several years now (as previous
threads have noted, that doesn't necessarily mean that salespeople
do a good job of it or even know much about shoes) and I convinced
my shop a few years ago to not sell true beginner's shoes (such as
the 5.10 Summit).
So to that extent I think you're right, Jay. There's no point in
selling a shoe that people will outgrow in months, if not weeks,
especially since most people nowadays have been renting and climbing
in the gym for much of that initial beginner period.
However, the Spire, though quite stiff and overbuilt, has as much
sensitivity as the average novice can use for their first year or
so, especially if they're mostly climbing in the gym, which, at least
in my area, is the norm for novices.
By the time they can use a better shoe, their first pair is in pretty
bad shape, or at least needs to be sent out. At which point they can
buy a better pair of shoes, and it's nice to still have the first
pair to use when the second needs resoling or to lend to friends or
to use on those climbing-easy-routes-cause-the-weather-is-bad days.
As to slippers, I think either Jay hangs with an exceptional crowd,
or he has given less than ideal advice. I know in my own case in my
second or third *year* of climbing I first tried on a slipper during
a demo-day at my gym, and could barely walk to a route and make the
first moves. If your feet are weak you will not be able to climb
well in slippers. Most novices have quite weak feet.
At least in the northeast, most novices will spend the bulk of their
time on routes with footholds that don't require great sensitivity,
and certainly don't require pulling up with the toes. In fact, most
novices in the northeast won't be on overhanging walls except in the
gym, where the holds are large enough that decent edging is all
that's needed. (Even on very steep moderate routes, such as at Rumney,
the holds are quite large.)
I don't think one can offer shoe advice without knowing what type of
climbing a person will be doing. I suspect that Jay has a very specific
type of climbing (perhaps California sport climbing) in mind when
telling people to buy slippers as their first pair of shoes. Perhaps
that's good advice for them. I'm sure it isn't good advice for most
of the people who come into my store, and probably isn't good advice for
most novices in the northeast.
-steven-
--
<ste...@panix.com>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It also helps to have butterfly bandages, a good suture kit,
a thorough knowledge of first aid, and, as noted elsewhere,
a huge lack of common sense. -- DMT, on ice climbing
Dawn Alguard
>
> My advice to go right into good shoes
I think you're defining "good" from a sport-prejudiced view. I
still don't wear slippers very often, just sometimes in the gym,
and I don't like them. For the type of climbing I do, a nice
comfortable edging shoe that I can stick in a crack without
screaming seems to work best.
As for that toe-pulling move you described, I've got to try that
one. Is that what I was supposed to be doing with those
slippers? But when you say it's the most important move, I think
you mean "given that I already know how to smear and edge, it's
the most important move" or maybe you just mean "for the very
specific sort of climbing I regularly do, it's the most important
move."
I'd say, learn foot placement first (placing the foot, not
smacking it down like a mackeral), then edging (trusting the shoe
to stick to small holds), then smearing (what to do when there's
no foothold), then jamming (ow, ow, yes this is fun) then get
fancy.
Definitely going to try pulling with my toes next time I have my
slippers on though. Maybe my climbing will suddenly improve two
letter grades.
Dawn
David Kastrup
> Definitely going to try pulling with my toes next time I have my
> slippers on though. Maybe my climbing will suddenly improve two
> letter grades.
Probably you are already doing that. Hard to avoid in overhanging
areas when you need to get your hip close to the wall. Particularly
if you want to rest your arms in an overhang dihedral.
Thor Lancelot Simon
David Kastrup <d...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
>Dawn Alguard <da...@tradgirl.com> writes:
>
>> Definitely going to try pulling with my toes next time I have my
>> slippers on though. Maybe my climbing will suddenly improve two
>> letter grades.
>
>Probably you are already doing that. Hard to avoid in overhanging
>areas when you need to get your hip close to the wall. Particularly
>if you want to rest your arms in an overhang dihedral.
Gee, it's pretty easy to avoid around here.
I've never found toe-hooking to be useful except on very pockety
sandstone or limestone or in the gym.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
the effort to perceive simply the cruel radiance of what is
David Kastrup
> In article <m2lmulp...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,
> David Kastrup <d...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
> >Dawn Alguard <da...@tradgirl.com> writes:
> >
> >> Definitely going to try pulling with my toes next time I have my
> >> slippers on though. Maybe my climbing will suddenly improve two
> >> letter grades.
> >
> >Probably you are already doing that. Hard to avoid in overhanging
> >areas when you need to get your hip close to the wall. Particularly
> >if you want to rest your arms in an overhang dihedral.
>
> Gee, it's pretty easy to avoid around here.
>
> I've never found toe-hooking to be useful except on very pockety
> sandstone or limestone or in the gym.
Don't confuse toehooks with pulling in. The former is usually done
with the top of the toe, the latter usually with the sole.
Bill Folk
"Steven Cherry" <ste...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:8uu2ji$b11$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Good points snipped...
> first moves. If your feet are weak you will not be able to climb
> well in slippers. Most novices have quite weak feet.
OTOH climbing in slippers is a great way to strengthen your feet.
Bill
jc5...@my-deja.com
When I teach a new student, I first have them climb with no
interference, this way I am able to evaluate their true natural
instincts and know where I need to start from. I then give them a basic
lesson on footwork (edging, smearing, toeing, Think balance, etc...)
then turn them loose to climb more, all this while letting them use
their normal footwear or with some kids who elect to go barefoot. they
will generally improve based on learning technique. Once they are fine
and comfortable I then suggest they try a pair of climbing shoes (which
I have available), so they may experience the benefits of a tighter
fit, sensetivity and more important "Sticky Rubber".The principle
behind this is to allow the student to see progression in steps, and
therefore they will have a better appreciation for better equipment as
they acquire it and improved technique. I personally climbed for years
in hiking boots, then bought some Vasque Skywalkers (before Sticky
Rubber)which were actually to big.I really hate seeing a new climber
who is led to believe they MUST have climbing shoes and a chalk bag as
mandantory basic equipment. I generally recommend they look for a used
shoe or if they buy brand new, that they go with an unlined low cost
shoe like the Saltic "Spirit" this way it can stretch and custom form
to the foot. With young kids I tell the parents not to spend good money
on shoes because the kid will out grow them to fast, the only exception
is if they are going to really jump full on into climbing, and
especially if the kid is going to go into competition climbing or they
just have too much money to spend.My experience is that most beginers
have fairly weak toes so slippers are tough to use on small holds /
pockets, and quite a few complain that the shoes are to painful and
will elect to not use them. I personally use many different shoes, I
use a shoe like the 5.10 Newton or Ascent for short climbs (I cannot
stand these for more than 45-60 min.), and my good Old Merell Smears,
or old Scarpa's (I believe Board lasted)for long climbs and guiding,
otherwise I will wear approach shoes, as my feet will always elect
comfort over pain.To the folks who keep on and on about sensetivity,
wait until you need to do an alpine route in a storm and you are forced
to do moves in double plastics (definately non sensetive) You will be
amazed how well these actually edge, but smearing is definately a pain
in the ankles.
Jim Cormier
Cormier Mountaineering
Michael C. Watz
>
<snip>
> I've been selling climbing shoes for several years now (as previous
> threads have noted, that doesn't necessarily mean that salespeople
> do a good job of it or even know much about shoes) and I convinced
> my shop a few years ago to not sell true beginner's shoes (such as
> the 5.10 Summit).
Crap! You mean I've been climbing on true beginner shoes all this
time?!?
I thought they were pretty nice shoes, myself. Live and learn, I guess.
-Mike "5.10 slab on a beginner shoe??" Watz-
Steven Cherry
>Steven Cherry wrote:
>> true beginner's shoes (such as
>> the 5.10 Summit).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Crap! You mean I've been climbing on true beginner shoes all this
>time?!?
>I thought they were pretty nice shoes, myself. Live and learn, I guess.
>-Mike "5.10 slab on a beginner shoe??" Watz-
Is this some kind of regional difference? Hereabouts, the Summit is
the basic green 5.10 shoe that one often sees gyms using for their
rentals. It's similar to the Spire except that it's even stiffer,
with even thicker leather.
It's a perfectly nice shoe but I suspect only a double plastic boot
would be less sensitive.
-steven-
--
<ste...@panix.com>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
After all, you've got your foot folded into a bone-splintering
tight shoe, your're sandpapering your fingertips off--what's a
little more pain? -- Derevaun Seraun, rec.climbing
Michael C. Watz
>
> In <3A12C4CF...@telesynthesis.com> "Michael C. Watz" <m...@telesynthesis.com> writes:
>
> >Steven Cherry wrote:
> >> true beginner's shoes (such as
> >> the 5.10 Summit).
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^
> >Crap! You mean I've been climbing on true beginner shoes all this
> >time?!?
>
> >I thought they were pretty nice shoes, myself. Live and learn, I guess.
>
> >-Mike "5.10 slab on a beginner shoe??" Watz-
>
> Is this some kind of regional difference? Hereabouts, the Summit is
> the basic green 5.10 shoe that one often sees gyms using for their
> rentals. It's similar to the Spire except that it's even stiffer,
> with even thicker leather.
>
> It's a perfectly nice shoe but I suspect only a double plastic boot
> would be less sensitive.
I think they're probably the ones I have - mine happen to be a hideous
purple-like color. I've been happily climbing in them up to mid-5.10 on
all types of rock. I guess that I've just been obliviously content. ;)
Good time for an upgrade, eh!?
-Mike "Maybe I can improve a couple grades" Watz-
Theresa Ho
<jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Yeah, but nowadays, with gyms and sport climbing, a relatively
>coordinated new climber is going to get past this stage very quickly,
>some in a matter of days.
Ha! Thanks, Jay, I think this comment in response to something I wrote
ought to propel me into the ranks of veteran climbers, no? Who'd a thunk
it? Yeah, **nowadays** things are different, but back in the day... back
when *I* started climbing... (just practicing). Brutus, do they have an
extra room in the Old Climbers Home?
Seriously, I'd say that this isn't my experience with beginners, but the
last 'beginner' I climbed with was Hardman Knott. Not only does he climb
well in slippers, he already has twice the number of shoes that I have
ever had, and kicks my butt face climbing. So, maybe I'm operating on
some potentially incorrect assumptions.
So, provided that said beginner is primarily climbing indoors or on sport
routes, has tried to do some climbing on slippers and likes them, and has
reasonably good footwork I will not discourage them from getting slippers
as a first pair of shoes. Not all beginners have weak feet, and not all
beginners are eventually going to want to have _good_ shoes for long
routes. Your points are well-taken.
However, I will hold your verbal mistreatment of 'trad' shoes against you
until further notice. ;)
Gung Ho
Jay Tanzman
Dawn Alguard <da...@tradgirl.com> wrote:
> Jay Tanzman wrote:
> >
> > My advice to go right into good shoes
>
> I think you're defining "good" from a sport-prejudiced view.
Yes, I am. I should have been more explicit. I'm talking about sport
and gym climbing. I wouldn't wear slippers on a long trad climb or in a
jam crack, but only because I have done both, and have experienced the
painful consequences.
> I
> still don't wear slippers very often, just sometimes in the gym,
> and I don't like them. For the type of climbing I do, a nice
> comfortable edging shoe that I can stick in a crack without
> screaming seems to work best.
>
> As for that toe-pulling move you described, I've got to try that
> one. Is that what I was supposed to be doing with those
> slippers? But when you say it's the most important move, I think
> you mean "given that I already know how to smear and edge, it's
> the most important move" or maybe you just mean "for the very
> specific sort of climbing I regularly do, it's the most important
> move."
It's certainly not the most important move for crack climbing or
friction routes, and to call any one move "the" most important is
questionable. My observation, though, is that this move is essential
for vertical and overhanging faces. I often see beginner to
intermediate sport climbers who are stuck at about 5.9/10a (these are
California sport numbers, not Gunks, now). Virtually 100% of the time,
they are missing the toe pulling mvove from their repertoire of
techniques, and nearly as often, they are wearing stiff, insensitive
shoes. Once they learn this technique, their whole climbing style
changes -- they can keep their hips sucked into the wall and their
weight off their arms -- and routes in the low .10s suddenly become
accessable to them.
> I'd say, learn foot placement first (placing the foot, not
> smacking it down like a mackeral),
Thank you for this analogy. It's perfect, and I'll be sure to use it on
the next foot-smacking beginner I encounter.
> then edging (trusting the shoe
> to stick to small holds), then smearing (what to do when there's
> no foothold), then jamming (ow, ow, yes this is fun) then get
> fancy.
Actually, if I had the right variety of rock to choose from, I would
teach friction first. There is nothing like a complete absense of
handholds to convince a beginner the importance of footwork.
-Jay
Jay Tanzman
ste...@panix.com (Steven Cherry) wrote:
> In <8usc9p$otl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com>
writes:
>
> >comfortable shoes, the theory being that beginners will most value
> >comfort and economy. My observations of beginners, though, is that
they
> >technically outgrow their first pair of shoes before they wear them
out.
> >Of course, they don't realize this because they have yet to
experience
> >the benefit of a more sensitive shoe.
>
> >I've convinced about a half dozen beginners to go out and buy
slippers.
>
> The theory is that beginners will not enjoy most of the benefits of
> sensitive shoes but they will "enjoy" most of the disadvantages.
That's the conventional theory. Mine is that it is the other way
around.
> I've been selling climbing shoes for several years now (as previous
> threads have noted, that doesn't necessarily mean that salespeople
> do a good job of it or even know much about shoes) and I convinced
> my shop a few years ago to not sell true beginner's shoes (such as
> the 5.10 Summit).
Good.
> So to that extent I think you're right, Jay. There's no point in
> selling a shoe that people will outgrow in months, if not weeks,
Yes, I agree. Most beginners would outgrow beginner shoes that fast,
and it is a waste of money for them to buy such shoes.
> especially since most people nowadays have been renting and climbing
> in the gym for much of that initial beginner period.
>
> However, the Spire, though quite stiff and overbuilt, has as much
> sensitivity as the average novice can use for their first year or
> so, especially if they're mostly climbing in the gym, which, at least
> in my area, is the norm for novices.
Here, I disagree with you, and what you are saying here seems to
contradict what you've said above. A year of climbing before going to a
more technical shoe? No way. Not these days. Around here (southern
Cal), it seems that the 5.9/10a level is where sensitive shoes start
coming into their own. A talented beginner will be at this level their
first day climbing (damn freak kids). And most beginning gym or sport
climbers will be there within a few months.
[...]
> At least in the northeast, most novices will spend the bulk of their
> time on routes with footholds that don't require great sensitivity,
> and certainly don't require pulling up with the toes...
The move I was referring to is not pulling up with the toes, it is
pulling the body into the wall with the toe (using the sole of the
shoe underneath the big toe, not the top of the shoe).
> In fact, most
> novices in the northeast won't be on overhanging walls except in the
> gym, where the holds are large enough that decent edging is all
> that's needed. (Even on very steep moderate routes, such as at Rumney,
> the holds are quite large.)
Perhaps there is some regionality to my advice. I can't say because I
don't get out of the southwest enough. However, the routes don't have
to overhang for pulling in with the toe to be important. This technique
is important on vertical and even near-vertical faces, too.
Jay Tanzman
ropeg...@hotmail.com (Theresa Ho) wrote:
> In article <8usc9p$otl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Jay Tanzman
> <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >Yeah, but nowadays, with gyms and sport climbing, a relatively
> >coordinated new climber is going to get past this stage very quickly,
> >some in a matter of days.
>
> Ha! Thanks, Jay, I think this comment in response to something I wrote
> ought to propel me into the ranks of veteran climbers, no? Who'd a
thunk
> it? Yeah, **nowadays** things are different, but back in the day...
back
> when *I* started climbing... (just practicing). Brutus, do they have
an
> extra room in the Old Climbers Home?
I was comparing how things are now to how they were when I firsted
started climbing in the mid-80s. It took me forever to "break into the
.10s". "Nowadays" it is not all that rare to see a talented beginner
TRing .10a her first day climbing. I won't even talk about the kid in
our gym who's redpointing .13's after climbing just two years.
-Jay
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
> > The theory is that beginners will not enjoy most of the benefits of
> > sensitive shoes but they will "enjoy" most of the disadvantages.
>
> That's the conventional theory. Mine is that it is the other way
> around.
>
> > I've been selling climbing shoes for several years now (as previous
> > threads have noted, that doesn't necessarily mean that salespeople
> > do a good job of it or even know much about shoes) and I convinced
> > my shop a few years ago to not sell true beginner's shoes (such as
> > the 5.10 Summit).
>
> Good.
>
> > So to that extent I think you're right, Jay. There's no point in
> > selling a shoe that people will outgrow in months, if not weeks,
>
> Yes, I agree. Most beginners would outgrow beginner shoes that fast,
> and it is a waste of money for them to buy such shoes.
>
And just to mae this love-fest complete, I was not talking about poor-
fitting, cheap, performance-challenged shoes either.
> Around here (southern
> Cal), it seems that the 5.9/10a level is where sensitive shoes start
> coming into their own. A talented beginner will be at this level
their
> first day climbing (damn freak kids). And most beginning gym or sport
> climbers will be there within a few months.
>
Not well, I can honestly say. And the freaks by definition defy
generalities. I still don't see where a stiffer, more durable shoe
would hold them back much, and as their footwork improves, the
thrashing they give their shoes will lessen and the usefullness of the
extra sensitivity will increase.
> [...]
>
> > At least in the northeast, most novices will spend the bulk of their
> > time on routes with footholds that don't require great sensitivity,
> > and certainly don't require pulling up with the toes...
>
> The move I was referring to is not pulling up with the toes, it is
> pulling the body into the wall with the toe (using the sole of the
> shoe underneath the big toe, not the top of the shoe).
>
> > In fact, most
> > novices in the northeast won't be on overhanging walls except in the
> > gym, where the holds are large enough that decent edging is all
> > that's needed. (Even on very steep moderate routes, such as at
Rumney,
> > the holds are quite large.)
>
> Perhaps there is some regionality to my advice. I can't say because I
> don't get out of the southwest enough. However, the routes don't have
> to overhang for pulling in with the toe to be important. This
technique
> is important on vertical and even near-vertical faces, too.
>
> -Jay
>
First of all, Jay, you seem to assume that everyone starting in the gym
is destined for steep pocket climbing only. Not true. Secondly, I'm not
convinced that a well-fitting, (relatively) stiff-soled shoe would
significantly handicap a novice climber.
Then again, I'm not recommending Jim Courmier's method, either ;-)
- Sumo
Jay Tanzman
Steep pocket climbing? Who's talking about steep pocket climbing?
> Not true. Secondly, I'm
not
> convinced that a well-fitting, (relatively) stiff-soled shoe would
> significantly handicap a novice climber.
It is self-evident that it is easier to learn precise footwork in
sensitive shoes that permit the foot to feel the hold better. I don't
know what to say if you can't see the simple truth to this.
-Jay
Hardman Knott
Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> The move I was referring to is not pulling up with the toes, it is
> pulling the body into the wall with the toe (using the sole of the
> shoe underneath the big toe, not the top of the shoe).
I use this technique all the time in the gym when making a
heinous clip. I understand the real climbers do it outside as well.
Hardman Knott
justin_...@my-deja.com
The altias, I have these shoes and they are NOT board lasted. They are
a bit thicker soled than most 5.10's but they do still have quite a bit
of sensitivity. I've resoled them once and they still perform
awesomely.
--Justin "I still prefer mythos' though..."
Hardman Knott
ropeg...@hotmail.com (Theresa Ho) wrote:
> last 'beginner' I climbed with was Hardman Knott. Not only does he
climb
> well in slippers, he already has twice the number of shoes that I have
> ever had, and kicks my butt face climbing. So, maybe I'm operating on
> some potentially incorrect assumptions.
The only incorrect assumption is that climbing plastic a couple letter
grades harder than you means anything in the real world...BFD.
As an oft-quoted figure has made clear, it "isn't proper climbing"...
However, a certain Gung-Ho climber recently on-sighted *Lunitic Fringe*
which I'm still quaking in my brand-new Anasazi lace-ups (thanks Bob)
just thinking about, after my humiliation following it this summer.
Remember Gung, "when it's real, you're the deal!"
Retreating to the gym with my 7 pairs of shoes,
Hardman Knott
Bill Folk
"Hardman Knott" <hardma...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8uvn6f$gk8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> However, a certain Gung-Ho climber recently on-sighted *Lunitic Fringe*
> which I'm still quaking in my brand-new Anasazi lace-ups (thanks Bob)
> just thinking about, after my humiliation following it this summer.
Yeah, that was a grudge route for me too. I was literally dragged up it on
my first trip to the valley. The humiliation was exquisite. Coming back and
leading it was _so_ satisfying. Spend the winter doing laps on the easy
crack at Mission Cliffs, and you'll cruise it next spring.
Bill
Geoff Jennings
>intermediate sport climbers who are stuck at about 5.9/10a (these are
>California sport numbers, not Gunks, now). Virtually 100% of the time,
>they are missing the toe pulling mvove from their repertoire of
>techniques, and nearly as often, they are wearing stiff, insensitive
>shoes. Once they learn this technique, their whole climbing style
>changes -- they can keep their hips sucked into the wall and their
>weight off their arms -- and routes in the low .10s suddenly become
>accessable to them.
Huh, I thought it was because I'm fat and weak that I struggle on CA sport 10a
routes. turns out it's my technique. Whoda thunk?
Geoff
Mark Bockmann
> The move I was referring to is ...
> pulling the body into the wall with the toe
>
> toe to be important. This technique
> is important on vertical and even near-vertical faces, too.
>
> -Jay
Ok, when you were talking about overhanging faces, I thought I knew
what you were talking about. But now that you say it's also an
important move on vertical and near-vertical faces, I don't have a
clue. Can you please give a detailed description of this move,
including one example for each case (overhanging, vertical, near-
vertical) where the move would be useful?
Missing something,
_________________________________________
Mark Bockmann
http://www.geocities.com/mdbockmann
Mark Bockmann
> To provide another data point, I *still* manage to wear through a
> pair of shoes every 3 months. My problem is dragging my toes, or
> "paddling". I put holes in the tops of the toes and have to get
> my shoes re-randed every time I get them re-soled.
Dawn, a word of advice, if I may. I believe I know exactly what you're
talking about -- my wife does it, too. Tell me if this sounds familiar:
you're standing on good footholds, and the next good foothold is level
with your waist. You do a big high step with, say, your left foot, and
then "paddle" with your right foot as you're rocking onto the high
foothold. I think it's a common technique among many climbers who are
flexible, because they like the secure, "locked in" feeling they get
when rocking onto a high step (sometimes you can even get a no-hands
when you do this).
This technique has its usefulness, but it has downsides as well. First,
as you've discovered, you wear out the rands in the tips of your toes.
Second, it ain't pretty or graceful. Lastly (and most importantly),
high stepping puts a lot more stress on your fingers -- i.e., you have
to pull harder to get your weight onto the foothold. When the handholds
start to get really bad, you're sapping your strength unneccesarily
with this move.
How to avoid it? It's actually quite simple and boils down to this:
take baby steps.
Back to the example above. This time, instead of doing a big high step
with your left foot, look very carefully down at the rock around 12
inches above your right foot. There may not be anything there that
you'd normally consider to be a foothold. If so, find the best little
micro edge or rough spot to smear on with your *right* foot, and step
up. With your body just 6-12 inches higher, you'll probably be amazed
at how much easier the high step becomes. Pay particular attention to
how much you're pulling with your fingers, and I think you'll find that
taking baby steps reduces the load they have to bear.
Basically, large foot movements tend to be more awkward and place more
stress on your fingers; smaller foot movements tend to be more graceful
and require less effort.
Anyway, just something to think about. My wife, as I mentioned, still
does the same thing you do and her fastest 5.13 redpoint took her three
tries (she onsights 12c). So your "paddling" technique might not limit
you *too* much!
> Despite that, I think I have decent footwork. There are a lot of
> aspects to good footwork and not dragging your toes is only one
> of them.
...right on.
Cheers,
Jay Tanzman
Mark Bockmann <mdboc...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Jay Tanzman <jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > The move I was referring to is ...
> > pulling the body into the wall with the toe
> >
> > However, the routes don't have to overhang for pulling in with the
> > toe to be important. This technique
> > is important on vertical and even near-vertical faces, too.
> >
> > -Jay
>
> Ok, when you were talking about overhanging faces, I thought I knew
> what you were talking about. But now that you say it's also an
> important move on vertical and near-vertical faces, I don't have a
> clue. Can you please give a detailed description of this move,
> including one example for each case (overhanging, vertical, near-
> vertical) where the move would be useful?
I'll try. Imagine that you are on a vertical face. The holds are thin
edges and crimpers. Both hands and feet are on holds in the so-called
relaxed-X position. The next handhold is up and left, but your left
hand is helping to hold you into the wall; if you let go with it, you'll
peel. The next foothold is up and left. What do you do?
You place the inside edge of the big toe of your left foot on the next
foothold, and you press down with toe and pull _out_ with it. This
holds your body into the wall and allows you to let go with the left
hand to make a static reach to the next handhold.
This move is also useful when you need to shake or chalk up. You place,
say, the left foot on a hold out left and up a bit, and pull outward
from the wall with the toe (your weight remains on your right foot).
This takes the weight off the left hand to shake or chalk up.
Another example of pulling with the toe is pulling in with the toe
toward the centerline of the body in order to shift the center of
gravity over that foot. There is a picture of this at
http://redpoints.homestead.com/doublecross.html . Scroll down to the
first picture under "Red Rocks, Nevada." Here, a dashing, young climber
has high-stepped up and left and is in the process of shifting his
weight onto his left foot while chalking up the left hand. This route
is somewhat steeper than it looks in the picture, and the only way to
accomplish this shift of weight without a left handhold to pull on is to
use the left toe to pull out from the rock (to hold the body in to the
rock) and in toward the centerline of the body.
Experienced face climbers do this move routinely. It is ubiquitous in
vertical face climbing. You may be doing it already and just not be
aware of it. However, as I have mentioned, it is common to find
climbers who can't seem to break into 5.10s who do not have this move in
their repertoire. Lacking this technique, they climb with their weight
too far out from the wall and they can't get sufficient weight off their
arms to make thin face moves.
-Jay
Sue
<mdboc...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Dawn Alguard <da...@tradgirl.com> wrote:
> > To provide another data point, I *still* manage to wear through a
> > pair of shoes every 3 months. My problem is dragging my toes, or
> > "paddling". I put holes in the tops of the toes and have to get
> > my shoes re-randed every time I get them re-soled.
>
> Dawn, a word of advice, if I may. I believe I know exactly what you're
> talking about -- my wife does it, too. Tell me if this sounds familiar:
> you're standing on good footholds, and the next good foothold is level
> with your waist. You do a big high step with, say, your left foot, and
> then "paddle" with your right foot as you're rocking onto the high
> foothold.
<Snipttety snip>
>
> How to avoid it? It's actually quite simple and boils down to this:
> take baby steps.
<snippola>
naw Dawn we all know the solution is we paddlers need to grow.
Sue
Theresa Ho
<hardma...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> However, a certain Gung-Ho climber recently on-sighted *Lunitic Fringe*
Oops. Nope. Just for the record, I followed Tom up it earlier this
season before leading it. Of course, my memory for routes is so bad that
I had to figure out the cruxes all over again anyway. Can I claim an
Alzheimers onsight?
Gung Ho
Bill Zaumen
<jtan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Another example of pulling with the toe is pulling in with the toe
> toward the centerline of the body in order to shift the center of
> gravity over that foot. There is a picture of this at
> http://redpoints.homestead.com/doublecross.html .
I'd recommend avoiding this URL until someone fixes the web page.
First, it loads painfully slowly (and I've got an ADSL connection).
Second, it seems to complain if you have javascript turned off.
There is no need for javascript if you are simply scanning through
a web page to look at pictures. I keep javascript off as a
default to prevent abusive sites from popping up annoying dialog
boxes, and generally I don't make exceptions.
Bill
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