motown sound
musa
enyone can tell how james jamerson's precision bass was recorded in
the historical motown sessions.
and the drums?
thank you
musa
Mark Stebbeds
Detroit owned by some former Motown engineers. Don't know about the drums,
but I'm guessing a mic in front of the kit, an overhead, and maybe something
pointing towards the snare and hi hat. That was a fairly popular way in the
sixties. (and again today)
A funny story. One of the Motown engineers told me that when they first
started making stereo records in the sixties, they would listen to one side
of the mix at a time because they only had one speaker.
mark
"musa" <phat...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:9929bc91.01111...@posting.google.com...
Chris Johnson
"Mark Stebbeds" <ma...@stebbeds.net> wrote:
> "musa" <phat...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:9929bc91.01111...@posting.google.com...
> > peace everybody,
> > enyone can tell how james jamerson's precision bass was recorded in
> > the historical motown sessions.
> > and the drums?
> Custom made direct box on the bass. I used the exact one at a studio in
> Detroit owned by some former Motown engineers. Don't know about the drums,
> but I'm guessing a mic in front of the kit, an overhead, and maybe something
> pointing towards the snare and hi hat. That was a fairly popular way in the
> sixties. (and again today)
I assume you have the rest of the story taken care of, namely really
old flatwounds on the bass, Alnico magnets in the pickup instead of modern
ceramic, extremely high action, and James Jamerson playing i...
...doh! ;)
Seriously- in this particular case I think it's pretty safe to say most
of the sound came from the guy's fingers. He played it like it was an
upright, with incredible finger strength and a super high action, on
totally dead flatwounds- you get a particular sound that way that is
entirely in the string, and then getting it out to tape is just a
technicality.
Only reason I mention it is, you could get a lighter player and give
them Jamerson's bass (stolen, so if you do this you should give it to his
estate when you're done!) and run through the exact DI box he used into
the same console and _still_ not get within a mile of the motown bass
sound. If you seriously want to put out a motown-like bass sound, use a DI
P-bass and find a fingerstyle bass player who's into Jamerson, Rocco
Prestia et al- someone who plays fingerstyle HARD, who has to use quite
high action to avoid massive fret buzz. Do that and you may not wind up
sounding _like_ Jamerson but you'll have a bass pulse not unlike Motown.
It's just a simple clean recording of a P-bass having the living crap
played out of it. There's nothing fancy about this, it's largely in the
playing...
Chris Johnson
Bob Olhsson
Mark Stebbeds <ma...@stebbeds.net> wrote:
>One of the Motown engineers told me that when they first
>started making stereo records in the sixties, they would listen to one side
>of the mix at a time because they only had one speaker.
That must have been prior to the first time I saw the control room in
1964.
Who was this anyways?
--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery Recording Project Design and Consulting
Box 90412, Nashville TN 37209 Tracking, Mixing and Mastering
615.352.7635 FAX 615.356.2483 Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
40 years of making people sound better than they thought possible!
Jay Kahrs
>That must have been prior to the first time I saw the control room in
>1964.
>
>Who was this anyways?
This is where someone flames Bob and tells him he don't know Jack about Motown.
Hang in there buddy...
---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Engineer - Producer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
Bob Olhsson
<phat...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>peace everybody,
>enyone can tell how james jamerson's precision bass was recorded in
>the historical motown sessions.
With a transformer direct that was built into an amp that was used for
the bass and most of the guitars.
>and the drums?
In the old days I'm pretty sure just a U-67 overhead and an RCA 77 or
EV 666 on the kick. Later on it was KM-86s on overhead, snare and
high-hat and either a Shure 548 or a KM-85 on the kick.
John Noll
>
>
> In the old days I'm pretty sure just a U-67 overhead and an RCA 77 or
> EV 666 on the kick. Later on it was KM-86s on overhead, snare and
> high-hat and either a Shure 548 or a KM-85 on the kick.
>
Just curious, doesn't the KM85 have the bass roll-off?
Would seem to be an odd choice for kick drum.
--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ 07701
ph: 732-842-3853 fax: 732-842-5631
Jay Kahrs
>Would seem to be an odd choice for kick drum.
I thought it was an omni too.
Mark Stebbeds
Motown Studios in Detroit. Last I heard (10 years ago), he had a studio in
Detroit called the Sound Suite.
I cant' verify the story, just passing it along. By 1964, they may have put
in the stereo monitors.
Mark
"Bob Olhsson" <o...@hyperback.com> wrote in message
news:131120012352461041%o...@hyperback.com...
Mark Stebbeds
the bass and most of the guitars.<<<<
Yep, that's the box. A vertical thing with a few DI's and a speaker, right?
Mark
"Bob Olhsson" <o...@hyperback.com> wrote in message
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Mark Stebbeds
I've used the DI rig, so I was just sharing.
Mark
"Chris Johnson" <jinx...@sover.net> wrote in message
news:jinx6568-131...@arc2a32.bf.sover.net...
Bob Olhsson
<brown...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Just curious, doesn't the KM85 have the bass roll-off?
>>Would seem to be an odd choice for kick drum.
>
>I thought it was an omni too.
I'm talking about the cardioid with the bass roll off. I think the omni
is the 83 but i could easily have my numbers confused.
It was used because it sounded better than an 86 which was the other
choice in that studio at the time.
Bob Olhsson
Mark Stebbeds <ma...@stebbeds.net> wrote:
>An engineer named John Lewis.
John was pulling your leg!
Bob Olhsson
Mark Stebbeds <ma...@stebbeds.net> wrote:
>I agree, it's mostly the player and the instrument, and less the DI. But
>I've used the DI rig,
Most commercial DIs have been pretty crappy for bass compared to those.
Lord Alvin
There is a fantastic book called "Standing in the Shadows of Motown"
that is a tribute to the great James Jamerson. In it are many
pictures and commentary that will give you some insight to the Motown
sound and Jamerson's technique. I am not sure who published the book,
but I bet you could find it if you went to the Bass Player magazine
website.
According to what I have read, James played through an Ampeg B-15
Portaflex amp with the high tone knob all the way off and the bass
knob all the way up. This was in addition to the DI. All of the
instruments were recorded in the same room so there was some bleed
into the other mics.
Bob Olhsson
Alvin <iso...@juno.com> wrote:
>According to what I have read, James played through an Ampeg B-15
>Portaflex amp with the high tone knob all the way off and the bass
>knob all the way up. This was in addition to the DI.
Maybe he did that in LA. I never saw him use an amp once at Motown
Detroit.
Scott Dorsey
Bob Olhsson <o...@hyperback.com> wrote:
>In article <XgyI7.41288$hZ.38...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>Mark Stebbeds <ma...@stebbeds.net> wrote:
>
>>I agree, it's mostly the player and the instrument, and less the DI. But
>>I've used the DI rig,
>
>Most commercial DIs have been pretty crappy for bass compared to those.
Are you talking about those boxes with UTC LS33 transformers in them?
With all the taps?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Fletcher
John Noll wrote:
> Bob Olhsson wrote:
> >
> >
> > In the old days I'm pretty sure just a U-67 overhead and an RCA 77 or
> > EV 666 on the kick. Later on it was KM-86s on overhead, snare and
> > high-hat and either a Shure 548 or a KM-85 on the kick.
> >
>
> Just curious, doesn't the KM85 have the bass roll-off?
> Would seem to be an odd choice for kick drum.
It has a pad, I don't believe it had a 'bass rolloff'.
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"
For the Dr. Laura of audio see:
http://prosoundweb.com/recpit
Mark Stebbeds
leg pulling now and then. I think he was talking about a very short period
of time, maybe days, in between the first stereo mixes and the speaker
installation. Hey, I've done the left/right switching thing myself when one
speaker blew up.
I was weaned on stereo, but I know lots of studios had a one speaker format
in the fifties. I been in places where the main speaker was in the soffit,
or hanging in the center of the room on chains, but the second speaker was
loose, and placed on top of racks, etc.
mark
"Bob Olhsson" <o...@hyperback.com> wrote in message
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Mark Plancke
>In the old days I'm pretty sure just a U-67 overhead and an RCA 77 or
>EV 666 on the kick. Later on it was KM-86s on overhead, snare and
>high-hat and either a Shure 548 or a KM-85 on the kick.
Hi Bob
KM85 on kick seems like an odd choice given the LF roll off that's
built in to it. I understand that the KM85 had the roll off to
primarily get a flat response when used close up. Did they use it in
close to the kick to get an even response? Just curious.
Mark Plancke
SOUNDTECH RECORDING STUDIOS
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
http://SoundTechRecording.com
"Reet too tee too tee too tee too tee too teeeeeee" - Frank Zappa
Mark Plancke
>> Just curious, doesn't the KM85 have the bass roll-off?
>> Would seem to be an odd choice for kick drum.
>
>It has a pad, I don't believe it had a 'bass rolloff'.
No switchable roll off, it had a roll off built into the capsule. When
I talked to Klaus Hein about it he said it was how the capsule was
tuned and that it could be re tuned to get a KM84 response curve.
Bob Olhsson
<Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote:
>It has a pad, I don't believe it had a 'bass rolloff'.
It was a permanent bass rolloff.
NeilH011
>instruments were recorded in the same room so there was some bleed
>into the other mics.
>
I have sneaking suspicion that bleed is the real secret of Motown, and the
secret of Spector's wall, and the secret of (fill in your favorite cool
sounding - and feeling - older recording here).
Neil
Robert Blank
Most 3 track and 4 track studios until the mid 60s had 3 or 4 speakers.
No monitor mix.
Mark Stebbeds
And hiring too many musicians by mistake.
mark
"NeilH011" <neil...@cs.com> wrote in message
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Jason C. Crouch
accomodate proximity effect?
Jason C Crouch
attt...@aol.com
Bob Olhsson
Blank <b...@blankproductions.com> wrote:
>Most 3 track and 4 track studios until the mid 60s had 3 or 4 speakers.
>No monitor mix.
Some early 8-track rooms even had 8 speakers!
Motown had a monitor mix from the beginning and a lot of other stuff
people take for granted today. You can trace noiseless punch-ins,
automatic monitor switching, multiple simultanious sends, channel
mutes, vca grouping, locking up multiple multitracks, Automated
Processes consoles, A&M studios and a lot of other stuff to Mike
McLean, John Windt, Dave Clark and the other guys who worked in our
shop.
JohnL16506
>automatic monitor switching, multiple simultanious sends, channel
>mutes, vca grouping, locking up multiple multitracks, Automated
>Processes consoles, A&M studios and a lot of other stuff to Mike
>McLean, John Windt, Dave Clark and the other guys who worked in our
>shop.
Is that the same John Windt who was designing mixing consoles for Ramsa many
moons ago?
John
Bob Olhsson
<johnl...@aol.comremove> wrote:
>Is that the same John Windt who was designing mixing consoles for Ramsa many
>moons ago?
And the same one who designed the big Yamaha FOH consoles people love.
Unfortunately companies haven't necessarily built things the way John
designed them.
Scott Dorsey
>perhaps was the km-85 a "speech cardiod", with a built in roll-off to
>accomodate proximity effect?
Yes, and it's handy for a lot of close-miking applications.
Roger W. Norman
--
Roger W. Norman
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
"Bob Olhsson" <o...@hyperback.com> wrote in message
news:141120011739274357%o...@hyperback.com...
Roger W. Norman
--
Roger W. Norman
www.SirMusicStudio.com
Ro...@SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681
"guys, it takes a lifetime to just get just a BIT closer..."
George Massenburg
"Bob Olhsson" <o...@hyperback.com> wrote in message
news:131120012359104070%o...@hyperback.com...
> In article <9929bc91.01111...@posting.google.com>, musa
> <phat...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>
> >peace everybody,
> >enyone can tell how james jamerson's precision bass was recorded in
> >the historical motown sessions.
>
> With a transformer direct that was built into an amp that was used for
> the bass and most of the guitars.
>
> >and the drums?
>
> In the old days I'm pretty sure just a U-67 overhead and an RCA 77 or
> EV 666 on the kick. Later on it was KM-86s on overhead, snare and
> high-hat and either a Shure 548 or a KM-85 on the kick.
>
JohnL16506
>>moons ago?
>
>And the same one who designed the big Yamaha FOH consoles people love.
>Unfortunately companies haven't necessarily built things the way John
>designed them.
>
>--
>Bob Olhsson
Thanks for the info - I had no idea that he ever worked at Motown.
John