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class on if at UGA

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Stephen Ramsay

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May 7, 2003, 9:29:46 AM5/7/03
to
My name is Steve Ramsay and I'm a professor of English and Humanities
Computing at the University of Georgia.

I am going to be teaching a class on interactive fiction at the
University of Georgia this fall, and I want to encourage any UGA
students who frequent this list to come join us.

We're going to play a lot of games and read a lot of the critical
literature on IF. We're also going to learn to program our own games
(using inform).

This may the coolest thing happening at UGA this year :)

The course is ENGL 4890 (under the generic course heading "Topics in
Criticism and Culture" but really entitled "Digital Narratives").

I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about the course. A
couple of people have suggested I keep a weblog on the development of
the course. I'll let people on this list know if I get that together.

Thanks!

Stephen Ramsay, Assistant Professor
Department of English, University of Georgia
email: sra...@uga.edu
web: http://cantor.english.uga.edu/

Kevin Forchione

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May 7, 2003, 1:47:43 PM5/7/03
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"Stephen Ramsay" <sra...@uga.edu> wrote in message
news:eT7ua.20997$Pv6....@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...

> My name is Steve Ramsay and I'm a professor of English and Humanities
> Computing at the University of Georgia.

English and Humanities Computing? Now that's an interesting field!

> I am going to be teaching a class on interactive fiction at the
> University of Georgia this fall, and I want to encourage any UGA
> students who frequent this list to come join us.
>
> We're going to play a lot of games and read a lot of the critical
> literature on IF. We're also going to learn to program our own games
> (using inform).

I'd be interested, from a teacher's perspective, why Inform?

> This may the coolest thing happening at UGA this year :)

I'll bet!

> The course is ENGL 4890 (under the generic course heading "Topics in
> Criticism and Culture" but really entitled "Digital Narratives").

Digital Narratives, I like the sound of that. Sounds... mature. :)

"So, what do you do?"
"I write Digital Narratives."
"O cool! What kind of car do you drive?"

--Kevin


Zachary H.

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May 8, 2003, 8:09:13 AM5/8/03
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Stephen Ramsay <sra...@uga.edu> wrote in message news:<eT7ua.20997$Pv6....@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com>...
> My name is Steve Ramsay and I'm a professor of English and Humanities
> Computing at the University of Georgia.

Sounds fun...like 50% lit class, 50% computer lit class & 50% creative
writing class :) Well, if it's about IF, then it can't be any less
than 150% better than a normal lit class...being a former lit major
myself.

Good luck to you! It would be cool as a final project to upload all
games and source to the if archive that are completed in your
class...as perhaps a substitute for a weblog.

"Humanities Computing"...you'll have to give me a few days to ponder
the implications of that one. :)

dgr...@cs.csbuak.edu

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May 8, 2003, 5:26:10 PM5/8/03
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I would encourage caution. What would this mean to the future of feuds
between science and humanities?


--
David Griffith

Stephen Ramsay

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May 8, 2003, 10:23:11 PM5/8/03
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Hello all,

I posted some follow-ups to several messages, but hit the wrong button
on my mailer. Here goes (in no particular order):

>> "Humanities Computing"...you'll have to give me a few days to ponder
>> the implications of that one. :)
>
> I would encourage caution. What would this mean to the future of feuds
> between science and humanities?

They would be suffused with a sense of humility ;)

(You ain't seen complexity till you've dealt with humanistic data)

>In rec.arts.int-fiction, you wrote:
>I'd be interested, from a teacher's perspective, why Inform?

Mostly because I think the documentation is fairly good. I'm actually a
bit nervous about it, though.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in inform (in terms of programming
concepts), and I'm actually pretty excited about the fact that my
students will be able to learn a bit about OO from inform. Still,
inform would certainly not be my first choice for a first programming
language (I usually teach Ruby in my humanities computing courses).

I think I'm going to tell my students: "Look, this class is going to be
a blast. We're going to play games, read about games, talk about games,
and even build games. But I won't lie to you. The programming aspect
is not for the faint-hearted and you're going to have to really commit
to this class if you're going to get anywhere."

But actually, I'd love to hear arguments for or against inform on this
score. Has anyone tried to teach if to undergraduates? Did you use
inform (or TADS, or something else)?

>In rec.arts.int-fiction, you wrote:
>"Humanities Computing"...you'll have to give me a few days to ponder
>the implications of that one. :)

Since a couple of people have communicated their bemusement over the
term "Humanities Computing," I thought I'd post the description of HC
from the curriculum info at UGA:

-cut-

Humanities Computing endeavors to put the traditional objects of
humanistic inquiry into productive dialogue with computer technology.
As such, its terms are primarily of a philosophical and theoretical
nature. Students engaged in the study of humanities computing are
asked--first and foremost--to reflect upon the implications of
information technology for humanistic study and to consider the ways in
which that technology may work to enhance the varied projects of
critical endeavor.

An informed consideration of these matters necessarily entails an
acquaintance with the substantial body of theoretical scholarship in
humanities computing. In addition to this, however, students must
become adept at the use and creation of computer-based scholarly tools.
Ideally, the hands-on experience of using and creating such tools
deepens the students' awareness of the theoretical implications, while
conversely, philosophical reflection works to sharpen the students'
competence as users and creators of computer-based materials.

Students who choose to pursue humanities computing as an academic
field--whether by itself or as an adjunct to more conventional areas of
study--should find themselves well prepared by the core curriculum. The
technical training which the curriculum affords should also help to
prepare students for work in teaching, publishing, libraries, museums,
and those areas of commercial endeavor for which humanistic training is
understood to complement technical proficiency.

-cut-

There are actually three scholarly journals devoted to HC (all of which
have published articles on IF, incidentally) and a number of conferences
held each year. I'd be happy to provide more information to anyone
who's interested.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies!

Steve


--
Stephen Ramsay


Assistant Professor
Department of English, University of Georgia

email: sra...@uga.edu, web: http://cantor.english.uga.edu/

Mark Silcox

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May 9, 2003, 1:41:56 AM5/9/03
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I've been asked for syllabi for this sort of course when I tell potential
academic employers (I'm a Ph.D.. in philosophy) that I'm interested in this
stuff. Even with a very bright and enthusiastic group of students, I'd
definitely go with ADRIFT - it's a curiously powerful resource for a GUI,
and I think trying to get humanities student who've just started leaning the
pleasures of IF to commit to learning Inform seems to me to be WAY
over-ambitious.

Mark Silcox

"Stephen Ramsay" <sra...@uga.edu> wrote in message

news:jiEua.1812$8x5...@fe10.atl2.webusenet.com...

Roger Firth

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May 9, 2003, 3:47:27 AM5/9/03
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"Stephen Ramsay" <sra...@uga.edu> wrote in message
news:jiEua.1812$8x5...@fe10.atl2.webusenet.com...

>
> But actually, I'd love to hear arguments for or against inform on this
> score. Has anyone tried to teach if to undergraduates? Did you use
> inform (or TADS, or something else)?


Nick Montfort may have (tried teaching IF) and Dennis Jerz most
certainly has; their URLs from Parsifal (below). And there was
another college whose student games were downloadable from
its website; somebody posted its URL within the last twelve
months, but sadly I can't recollect it. All used Inform.

Cheers, Roger
--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
You'll find my Cloak of Darkness, Parsifal, Informary
and more at http://www.firthworks.com/roger/


Steve Evans

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May 9, 2003, 4:14:56 AM5/9/03
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On Fri, 9 May 2003 08:47:27 +0100, "Roger Firth"
<ro...@firthworks.com> wrote:

>Nick Montfort may have (tried teaching IF) and Dennis Jerz most
>certainly has; their URLs from Parsifal (below). And there was
>another college whose student games were downloadable from
>its website; somebody posted its URL within the last twelve
>months, but sadly I can't recollect it. All used Inform.

It was the University of Michigan, Dearborn:

http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/CIS/course.des/cis487.html

The student games are here:

http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/CIS/course.des/cis487/z5/index.php

Cheers,

Steve

Zachary H.

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May 9, 2003, 9:06:25 AM5/9/03
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> Mostly because I think the documentation is fairly good. I'm actually a
> bit nervous about it, though.

I think that's the right approach. Excellent documentation is a
must...otherwise beginning programmers who run into a for(;;)
statement and fundamentally don't grasp it, most definitely need to be
able to look it up on their own, and not have to give you a call at 1
AM on a Sunday :)

You might even want to write your own intro documentation.

> There's a lot of interesting stuff in inform (in terms of programming
> concepts), and I'm actually pretty excited about the fact that my
> students will be able to learn a bit about OO from inform. Still,
> inform would certainly not be my first choice for a first programming
> language (I usually teach Ruby in my humanities computing courses).

My take, as someone who is a self-taught programmer (though a inept
one), is that just about any IF language (perhaps outside of the
cutting edge) is perfect for beginners. I say that because prgramming
two rooms and an object with which to win the game is quite simple (or
at least it is in TADS, not soooo sure about inform as I haven't
looked at it since I first got into IF and chose TADS over inform).
Meaning, one can see, and play, the fruits of one's labor right off
the bat.

I think the biggest hurdle for beginners, beyond the tedium of looking
up classes and functions, is syntax...with punctuation taking the
cake.

After knocking it off my bookshelf the other day, I came to the
conclusion that David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest would have been
better done as a piece of IF rather than a novel. A 1200 room maze, as
many footnotes/bogus clues, and one object, which when you find it,
will turn you catatonic--die(). It's the only way to end the game.

Quintin Stone

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May 9, 2003, 9:22:20 AM5/9/03
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On Wed, 7 May 2003, Stephen Ramsay wrote:

> I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about the course.
> A couple of people have suggested I keep a weblog on the development of
> the course. I'll let people on this list know if I get that together.

Best of luck to you. Sounds like a great course. Maybe if they'd had
classes like this at my university I would have stuck around and gotten my
degree. ;)

/====================================================================\
|| Quintin Stone O- > "You speak of necessary evil? One ||
|| Code Monkey < of those necessities is that if ||
|| Rebel Programmers Society > innocents must suffer, the guilty must ||
|| st...@rps.net < suffer more." -- Mackenzie Calhoun ||
|| http://www.rps.net/ > "Once Burned" by Peter David ||
\====================================================================/

Ethan Dicks

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May 9, 2003, 3:58:21 PM5/9/03
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mensche...@rcn.com (Zachary H.) wrote in message news:<b5eb7bcb.03050...@posting.google.com>...

> My take, as someone who is a self-taught programmer (though a inept
> one), is that just about any IF language (perhaps outside of the
> cutting edge) is perfect for beginners. I say that because prgramming
> two rooms and an object with which to win the game is quite simple (or
> at least it is in TADS, not soooo sure about inform as I haven't
> looked at it since I first got into IF and chose TADS over inform).

Since I'm in a similar boat to the original poster (I'm teaching a
class on IF writing/Inform at the end of the month), I've been thinking
about this very thing. Since you mentioned that you weren't sure about
how simple an example game would be to write in Inform, I decided to
knock one off to see what it took. The library is so rich that there's
not much you have to do if you accept the default behavior:


include "Parser";
include "verblib";
include "Grammar";

[ Initialise; print "^SAMPLE: An Interactive Simplicity^"; location=Room1; ];

Object Room1 "First Room"
with description "There is an exit to the east.",
e_to Room2,
has light;

Object Room2 "Another Room"
with description "You are standing in The Winner's Circle.",
w_to Room1,
has light;

Object -> Thing1 "sign"
with name 'sign',
description "It reads ~Pick me up to win~.",
after [; if (parent(self) == player) deadflag = 2; ];


That's all it takes.

-ethan

Dennis G. Jerz www.uwec.edu/jerzdg

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May 9, 2003, 6:21:32 PM5/9/03
to
Stephen and I have exchanged e-mails in the past, but I'm happy to
throw in my $.02 here.

Some of my students who are already accomplished programmers have
difficulty working with Inform, in part because the IDEs that most
programming students use are far more advanced than anything that the
IF scene offers right now. But students who have never programmed
before (or who never got beyond BASIC) are perfectly happy with the
IF-IDE.

I've found Firth & Kesserich's _Inform Beginner's Guide_ to be very
helpful -- but I'm biased, having edited that book. The students like
knowing that there is a real, physical book that can help them
(although when I last taught the course the print edition wasn't
ready; I had the .pdf printed and spiral bound in the bookstore.)

Students do tend to plan much more grandiose games than they have time
to finish in my course (where we also have literary and critical
readings in hypertext, a research paper, basic web usability, etc.).
I had much the same problem when I created my first (and so far only)
IF comp game -- so I've shifted in recent years to showing students
more small games and none of the epics. (This was a painful
decision... if this were a lit/reading course instead of a writing
course, I'd definitely put an epic or two back in.)

In week 2 of my "Writing Electronic Text" course, I introduce students
to a few short IF games. I print out a "How to play IF" handout (I've
used Adam Cadre's in the past, but now I'm using Firth and Kesserich's
appendix.)

I used to have them start with Colossal Cave Adventure, but the
students who get lost in the forest get annoyed, and I don't want to
turn them off to the genre before they've even really experienced what
it can do. Pick up the Phone Booth and Die is a good starter, since
someone in the class always manages to "win" that very quickly. Then
I have them play HHGG for a while, though I'm always dismayed that
only one or two people in each class has ever heard of the HHGG books.
(Sigh...) For the last 15 minutes, I have them play "9:05".
Typically two or three people get the "unsatisfying" win and don't
know what to think of it... I ask them to announce out loud how they
are feeling, but without telling them that they have missed the more
aesthetically "satisfying" loss. In the last three minutes of class,
I tell everyone to restart 9:05, and then have them type the
spoileriffic command that reveals the gimmick -- and the response is
always gratifying. "Ewwww!" they gasp. "I hate this game," they say,
smiling -- and then we have a very quick discussion about the
difference between the PC and the player, and how the author of a
linear work of fiction wouldn't be able to create the odd simultaneous
feelings of guilt and disgust and pleasure that they feel. Then I end
the class, leaving them (I hope) wanting more.

I follow the same lesson plan late in my freshman comp class, on a day
when students have just submitted a major assignment and appreciate a
break.

After a bit of other cybertext, in week 4, I introduce my e-text
students to Inform. After they see what goes into coding the game,
they are usually a bit more understanding of the games. For the
curious, here's a self-extracting zip file (Windows only -- sorry)
that contains the files I use.

http://www.uwec.edu/jerzdg/if/download/IF.exe

One of the files in that package is a very simple demo IF shell that
has lots of comments like "Here is where you put the name of the room"
and so forth. After I show them how to set up the IF-IDE, I have them
load this shell and personalize it, thus creating a very simple world.

Then I have them complete a few other objects that they can interact
with in a second, slightly longer game.. this second sample game has a
simple demon that moves a rudimentary story along.

This programming day takes one class period, and the exercise isn't
graded, so even the non-programmers tend to enjoy it. By the end,
everyone knows the basics of how to program in Inform, and one or two
people who weren't initially thinking of doing IF give it a try.
(They have a chance to back out and do a web page instead if their
alpha release doesn't go well.)

JJK

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May 9, 2003, 9:32:18 PM5/9/03
to
OK. I give up. What is it?

-Jim

Steve Evans

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May 9, 2003, 9:44:17 PM5/9/03
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On Fri, 09 May 2003 21:32:18 -0400, JJK <jj...@warwick.net> wrote:

>OK. I give up. What is it?
>
>-Jim

s

p

o

i

l

e

r


s

p

a

c

e

Look under the bed.

Steve

EPerson

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May 10, 2003, 9:45:59 AM5/10/03
to
>XYZZY

You are whisked away to...

rec.games.int-fiction

You are in rec.games.int-fiction, where such questions as the one you
just asked should be posted.

You can see the raif FAQ and the rgif FAQ here, which might be a good
idea to read.

--
Eric Schmidt

Edmund Kirwan

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May 11, 2003, 7:55:10 PM5/11/03
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e...@infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) wrote in message news:<45a8229f.03050...@posting.google.com>...

> mensche...@rcn.com (Zachary H.) wrote in message news:<b5eb7bcb.03050...@posting.google.com>...
> > My take, as someone who is a self-taught programmer (though a inept
> > one), is that just about any IF language (perhaps outside of the
> > cutting edge) is perfect for beginners. I say that because prgramming
> > two rooms and an object with which to win the game is quite simple (or
> > at least it is in TADS, not soooo sure about inform as I haven't
> > looked at it since I first got into IF and chose TADS over inform).
>
> Since I'm in a similar boat to the original poster (I'm teaching a
> class on IF writing/Inform at the end of the month), I've been thinking
> about this very thing. Since you mentioned that you weren't sure about
> how simple an example game would be to write in Inform, I decided to
> knock one off to see what it took. The library is so rich that there's
> not much you have to do if you accept the default behavior:

This is all a little strange. When I saw that first posting, I thought
it was a harmless joke (_WHY_ would someone teach IF?). I'd still be
sceptical except for the few links thrown in along the way showing
that others already have taught it IF schools.

The thread seems to have taken a turn towards the "Why INFORM as a
teaching tool rather than ..." which is a fine thread, of course, but
the argument for teaching IF itself is fascinating in itself.

One of the postings seemed to suggest that IF is a great way to teach
programming in general, and so going for an IF-dedicated language is a
good tool to stimulate interest and learning.

But is it?

For a start, I don't think IF is a great vehicle for teaching
computing beacause all students everywhere only want two things: sex
and money. And as IF hardly presses either button, why would a class
of software students find it particularly enhusing? Why wouldn't it be
a better idea to choose a corporate example? Why not teach a cut-down
version of operating systems as an introduction to computer? At least
they all know Windows made cash for someone.

But even that's an aside: if you do want to teach them IF, why not
teach them writing an IF in pure C++ or C or COBOL? At least then
they'd have a, "Real-world," language that they'll see again someday
when they start work.

(No, I'm not taking a pot-shot at INFORM, it's a great product - but
it's not as widespread as C, that's all.)

Don't misunderstand me: I applaud any approach that tries to show any
teenager that programming isn't unspeakably dull; it just strikes me
that you're showing them how to write a _game_ as opposed to how to
write an accounting package, as a means to get them to learn - and
this is great. But if so, why not program towards a 3D-game engine, as
far more of them will have played a 3D game rather than IF. I'm sure
more 3D engines have all the (basic) graphics thrown in, so none of
the students has to be a Leonardo; but the API should be as clean as
an IF engine.

Of course, you may just want to stimulate an interest in IF, which is
laudable in itself ...

.ed

www.edkirwan.kgbinternet.com

Andrew Plotkin

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May 11, 2003, 8:26:39 PM5/11/03
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Here, Edmund Kirwan <ade...@eircom.net> wrote:
> Why not teach a cut-down
> version of operating systems as an introduction to computer? At least
> they all know Windows made cash for someone.

> But even that's an aside: if you do want to teach them IF, why not
> teach them writing an IF in pure C++ or C or COBOL?

The answer to these two questions is the same: an IF world is easy to
understand -- it behaves more or less intuitively out of the box --
and you can make working changes in just a couple of lines of code.
Want an apple? There's an apple. Now, want it to taste good?

You say kids only are interested in sex and money. I say that the
opportunity to play god is pretty tempting too.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.

Quintin Stone

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May 11, 2003, 9:29:19 PM5/11/03
to
On 11 May 2003, Edmund Kirwan wrote:

> Don't misunderstand me: I applaud any approach that tries to show any
> teenager that programming isn't unspeakably dull; it just strikes me
> that you're showing them how to write a _game_ as opposed to how to
> write an accounting package, as a means to get them to learn - and this
> is great. But if so, why not program towards a 3D-game engine, as far
> more of them will have played a 3D game rather than IF. I'm sure more 3D
> engines have all the (basic) graphics thrown in, so none of the students
> has to be a Leonardo; but the API should be as clean as an IF engine.

When a kid learns to ride a bike, you start him off with training wheels.
You dosn't start the kid off with a unicycle. The first step in computer
programming is concepts, not language and not syntax.

Ethan Dicks

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May 13, 2003, 12:12:27 PM5/13/03
to
ade...@eircom.net (Edmund Kirwan) wrote in message news:<a80e1059.03051...@posting.google.com>...

> e...@infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) wrote in message news:<45a8229f.03050...@posting.google.com>...
> > ...I'm teaching a class on IF writing/Inform at the end of the month...

>
> This is all a little strange. When I saw that first posting, I thought
> it was a harmless joke (_WHY_ would someone teach IF?).

As it turns out, this class is at a Science Fiction convention and is in
the lineup along with general writing classes, as well as a class on learning
Java.

> The thread seems to have taken a turn towards the "Why INFORM as a
> teaching tool rather than ..." which is a fine thread, of course, but
> the argument for teaching IF itself is fascinating in itself.

That was not my intention, but I do happen to be using Inform as a
simplified environment for teaching basic OO concepts. I've written
IF in BASIC. It sucks - both the gyrations necessary to account for
the myriads of interactions of game objects, and the resultant buggy
output (but to be fair, it was 1979, and Scott Adams was my inspiration).



> One of the postings seemed to suggest that IF is a great way to teach
> programming in general, and so going for an IF-dedicated language is a
> good tool to stimulate interest and learning.
>
> But is it?
>
> For a start, I don't think IF is a great vehicle for teaching
> computing beacause all students everywhere only want two things: sex
> and money.

You forgot beer. :-)

> And as IF hardly presses either button, why would a class
> of software students find it particularly enhusing?

You are assuming that my students are 19-22 year-old college students. While
true for some of this thread, I don't expect that segment to be well
represented next week. If you like, I'll follow up with a demographic.

> Why wouldn't it be a better idea to choose a corporate example?

In my case? Complexity. I have two hours with these people. I want them
to walk out with *something*, even if it's just a handful of concepts,
some exposure to simple scenarios and a desire to explore it on my own.

A 10 week course? Maybe. There's still the issue of what environment,
what tools, what foundation do they have, etc.

> But even that's an aside: if you do want to teach them IF, why not
> teach them writing an IF in pure C++ or C or COBOL? At least then
> they'd have a, "Real-world," language that they'll see again someday
> when they start work.

I have *no* personal interest in teaching anyone enough C to write IF. I
think it's a poor choice for a variety of reasons - cheif among them: it
would be a *bear* to debug. The advantage to an IF-centric language is
that all of the common concepts are provided in an environment where
there are intentional boundaries. C is a great language. I have made
a living for nearly 20 years from it. I wouldn't want to contemplate
an IF project where the game itself was written in C (it's great for the
engine/compiler/debugger/etc.). I'd choose Perl first... at least it
is pre-wired for Objects, string manipulation, print formatting, etc.

> Of course, you may just want to stimulate an interest in IF, which is
> laudable in itself ...

That, as a matter of fact, is part of _my_ goal. The real reason for
choosing IF as a vehicle for a class on OO concepts is that in a few
moments, it's easy to set up an interactive example of how object and
inheritance work, the difference between methods and subroutines, etc.,
all *without* starting from a blank page.

What I can't do, though, is teach people good writing skills, spelling
and grammar (and neither can the professor of the class at U-Mich - I
read a few of the games... "viles" with liquid and countless other
simple English mistakes). OO programming is easy compared to learning
a natural language.

-ethan

Andrew Plotkin

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May 13, 2003, 2:10:16 PM5/13/03
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Here, Ethan Dicks <e...@infinet.com> wrote:
> ade...@eircom.net (Edmund Kirwan) wrote in message news:<a80e1059.03051...@posting.google.com>...
>> e...@infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) wrote in message news:<45a8229f.03050...@posting.google.com>...
>> > ...I'm teaching a class on IF writing/Inform at the end of the month...
>>
>> This is all a little strange. When I saw that first posting, I thought
>> it was a harmless joke (_WHY_ would someone teach IF?).

> As it turns out, this class is at a Science Fiction convention and
> is in the lineup along with general writing classes, as well as a
> class on learning Java.

Which con?

Edmund Kirwan

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May 13, 2003, 5:10:17 PM5/13/03
to
e...@infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) wrote in message news:<45a8229f.03051...@posting.google.com>...

> ade...@eircom.net (Edmund Kirwan) wrote in message news:<a80e1059.03051...@posting.google.com>...
> > e...@infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) wrote in message news:<45a8229f.03050...@posting.google.com>...
> > > ...I'm teaching a class on IF writing/Inform at the end of the month...
> >

.
.
.

> is pre-wired for Objects, string manipulation, print formatting, etc.
>
> > Of course, you may just want to stimulate an interest in IF, which is
> > laudable in itself ...
>
> That, as a matter of fact, is part of _my_ goal. The real reason for
> choosing IF as a vehicle for a class on OO concepts is that in a few
> moments, it's easy to set up an interactive example of how object and
> inheritance work, the difference between methods and subroutines, etc.,
> all *without* starting from a blank page.
>
> What I can't do, though, is teach people good writing skills, spelling
> and grammar (and neither can the professor of the class at U-Mich - I
> read a few of the games... "viles" with liquid and countless other
> simple English mistakes). OO programming is easy compared to learning
> a natural language.
>
> -ethan

Fine answer, all ...

.ed


/===================\
www.edmundkirwan.com

Ethan Dicks

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May 14, 2003, 10:33:49 AM5/14/03
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Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote in message news:<b9rce8$kel$1...@reader1.panix.com>...

> Here, Ethan Dicks <e...@infinet.com> wrote:
> > ade...@eircom.net (Edmund Kirwan) wrote in message news:<a80e1059.03051...@posting.google.com>...
> >> e...@infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) wrote in message news:<45a8229f.03050...@posting.google.com>...
> >> > ...I'm teaching a class on IF writing/Inform at the end of the month...
> >>
> >> This is all a little strange. When I saw that first posting, I thought
> >> it was a harmless joke (_WHY_ would someone teach IF?).
>
> > As it turns out, this class is at a Science Fiction convention and
> > is in the lineup along with general writing classes, as well as a
> > class on learning Java.
>
> Which con?

MarCON, Columbus, OH - 23-May through 25-May

http://www.marcon.org/

-ethan

Adam Thornton

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May 19, 2003, 8:55:10 PM5/19/03
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In article <b9mpnv$3jl$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>You say kids only are interested in sex and money. I say that the
>opportunity to play god is pretty tempting too.

There is something here about how those are not three different desires,
but I am insufficiently clever to find it.

Adam

G. Ponte

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May 19, 2003, 10:13:43 PM5/19/03
to

> There is something here about how those are not three different desires,
> but I am insufficiently clever to find it.
>
> Adam


Good to have you back.

(Or should I say "good that you found something to reply to"?).

Best,

Sonja.


Adam Thornton

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May 20, 2003, 1:09:01 PM5/20/03
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In article <bac2l3$agh$1...@nsnmpen2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>,

G. Ponte <polilla...@idecnet.com> wrote:
>Good to have you back.
>(Or should I say "good that you found something to reply to"?).

Thanks. Yeah, I've been reading RAIF a lot less than I used to. Real
work leaves me with almost no IF time.

Adam

Daniel Dawson

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May 17, 2003, 12:15:10 AM5/17/03
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Dennis G. Jerz www.uwec.edu/jerzdg wrote:
Snip snip snipsnipsnip...shred shred shred...

> curious, here's a self-extracting zip file (Windows only -- sorry)

Not so! A self-extracting zip is just a regular zip file with an
extracting program prepended. Zip files are rather curious: their
'header' is at the end, so anything you tack onto the beginning (like an
extracter) generally doesn't affect its integrity. For example, I with
my Linux system can use Info-ZIP to list and extract the files contained
in IF.exe. (In fact, I just did.)

Later.

--
Email: Daniel Dawson <ddawson at icehouse.net>
(Please include my name (as above, but remove '.REMOVEME') in To: field
when emailing me.)
Web: http://www.icehouse.net/ddawson/

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