Re: Electronics datasheet corpus? AND possibility for licensing/GPL for hardware [GOSH]
Jonathan Kuniholm
folks read copied email below, and watch the videos here:
http://heybryan.org/)
Bryan -
We exchanged email a while ago about CAD formats, etc.
To your question, I've got no tarball, but I didn't see any reference
on the open manufacturing list (I'm a neub) to Octopart:
http://octopart.com/
They have datasheets from all over, and most importantly, you can
compare prices from the major distributors. This site is useful in a
way that DigiKey has never been, despite the fact that Digi has nearly
everything for sale. Octopart also has an API, and appear open to
discussing ways that people might work with them.
I bring this up because in your quest to create an apt-get for
hardware (skdb-get?), you must consider that a very important part of
the process will be ordering stock parts from somewhere, and the
availability and convenience of specing these parts is crucial to the
format's success. An integrated BOM format that allows someone to
create a shopping cart at a number of different suppliers at once
would be fantastic (see this: http://www.abebooks.com/ they are a
consortium of independent used booksellers I use all the time because
of this feature).
In any case, your email made me think of CAD files available from
distributors in the same way that electronic datasheets are. These
supplier databases interfaces are basically awful, but can be a source
of CAD files in a variety of formats, and often include links to
purchase the products. If your skdb database format were creatable in
an automated way from crawling these CAD repositories, it would be a
great way to add functionality that included automated shopping cart
and price comparison features (create cart using cheapest available
with no shipping time over 1 wk and no supplier under 3.5 stars,
etc.). See these sites with CAD:
http://www.mcmaster.com/mcm/openhelp.asp?browserOK=true&sesnextrep=116160989496943&helpContext=drawingsandmodels
http://www.thomasnet.com/cadmodels.html
http://www.3dcontentcentral.com/default.aspx
http://www.traceparts.com/
*** GOSH Relevancy***
I am particularly excited by the possibility that your skdb-get idea
has for open hardware licensing. As we all probably know, despite many
efforts (TAPR, etc.) because of the difference from the patent vs.
copyright basis of hardware and software, there is no equivalent of
the automatic protection afforded softeware/artwork by copyright or
the GPL. (See this discussion:
http://www.keimform.de/2009/12/09/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/
). The reason that software is even afforded this protection has to do
with the copy of the program that is created in the RAM of the
computer when it is run
(http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise20.html).
I think that your skdb format has the potential to make completely
distributed custom manufacturing a possibility, and I offer this idea:
if your skdb-get format is capable of generating manufacturing code
(G-code or STLs, etc.) that is used in the RAM of a CAD/CAM setup when
parts are created, or even in the RAM of a web server or client
computer in the creation of a shopping cart of parts, wouldn't the
copyleft provisions of the GPL and copyright apply? In other words, in
your quest to make dealing with hardware as easy as software through
format, have you opened the door for copyleft protection of hardware?
This only works if the format is functional to the point of creating
the design, because the ideas behind the physical assembly cannot be
protected in this way. However, if skdb became the default format for
the interchange of this information, then the barriers to extracting
the information and using it in a way that subverts the copyleft (or
copyright) become identical to the problem of protecting software
source code from reverse engineering.
I don't know the answer to this, but I'd like to discuss it further.
Best,
Jon
"If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even
less." --General Eric Shinseki
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 6:47 AM,
<openmanufact...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> Today's Topic Summary
>
> Group: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/topics
>
> How will laws be changed just by the existence of self-sufficient people? [1
> Update]
> Les F's Austin TX hackerspace [3 Updates]
> Ken Isaacs [1 Update]
> SARSE 1.37 install.txt [3 Updates]
> Electronics datasheet corpus? [1 Update]
> Dremelfuge, the one-piece low-cost centrifuge [1 Update]
>
> Topic: How will laws be changed just by the existence of self-sufficient
> people?
>
> Heath Matlock <heathm...@gmail.com> Jan 03 03:09AM -0600 ^
>
> So let's imagine a scenario where someone asks: "how will laws be
> changed just by the existence of self-sufficient people? making
> whatever you want, whenever you want isn't reality. this is not even
> close to reality, as in, MOST of the world finds this idea laughable.
> who the hell makes airplanes in this system?" This happened to me
> recently, and I'm curious what others might have said...
>
>
> --
> Heath Matlock
> +1 256 274 4225
>
>
>
> Topic: Les F's Austin TX hackerspace
>
> John Griessen <jo...@industromatic.com> Jan 02 09:32PM -0600 ^
>
> I visited with Les and some of his hackerspace tenant/volunteers
> today for some face time and interior 9 foot high sheetrock
> wall building and enjoyed it.
>
> I'm impressed with the friendly positive attitude of the folks I
> met. Looking forward to getting myself adopted by a primary member
> and sharing my 9 inch lathe and seeing if we can talk an aging ex IBM
> machinist into renting-to-buy a JET milling machine he "tuned up"
> so it wasn't sloppy so he could stand to use it...
>
> Who else is interested in acquiring a non-CNC milling machine, a
> copy of a 7 ft tall Bridgeport with a three foot long bed for use at Les's
> Austin hackerspace?
>
> Les says machines like that should go on rolling platforms so they
> don't hog shop floor space when idle...
>
> John
>
> PS I'll dig through my spare distribution panels next trip
> to my storage room and see which ones Les likes for the shop -- it
> needs more light and power.
>
>
>
> Forrest Flanagan <soleno...@gmail.com> Jan 02 10:58PM -0600 ^
>
> There's a hackerspace in Austin now? :D
>
> Awesome. I'm from TX/RX, the Houston hackerspace. I'll have to come by and
> visit next time I have an excuse to be in the area.
>
>
>
>
> Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com> Jan 02 11:00PM -0600 ^
>
> On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Forrest Flanagan wrote:
>> There's a hackerspace in Austin now? :D
>
> For some reason we were trying to keep it on the "down low". But yes. :-)
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
>
>
>
> Topic: Ken Isaacs
>
> Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com> Jan 02 06:06PM -0600 ^
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jonathan Cline <jcl...@ieee.org>
> Date: Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 6:04 PM
> Subject: Ken Isaacs
> To: Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com>
>
>
> old school open hardware
>
>
> Ken Isaacs, How To Build Your Own Living Structures, 1974, Harmony
> Books, New York, 137 pages
>
> http://www.publiccollectors.org/LivingStructuresk_isaacs-1.pdf
>
>
> --
>
> ## Jonathan Cline
> ## jcl...@ieee.org
> ## Mobile: +1-805-617-0223
> ########################
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
>
>
>
> Topic: SARSE 1.37 install.txt
>
> Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com> Jan 02 08:33AM -0600 ^
>
>> bash: version: No such file or directory
>> bash: 1.37: No such file or directory
>> bash: version: No such file or directory
>
> Sounds like you messed up your .bashrc file.. I'd open it up and take
> a look, see if you can find where it says "version", "1.37" and so on.
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
>
>
>
> Lee Nelson <technol...@gmail.com> Jan 02 11:46AM -0600 ^
>
>
>> Sounds like you messed up your .bashrc file.. I'd open it up and take
>> a look, see if you can find where it says "version", "1.37" and so on.
>
> it works using the commands i listed
>
>
>
> Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com> Jan 02 05:37PM -0600 ^
>
>>> Sounds like you messed up your .bashrc file.. I'd open it up and take
>>> a look, see if you can find where it says "version", "1.37" and so on.
>
>> it works using the commands i listed
>
> Yes, but your .bashrc file is still messed up. You should fix it.
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
>
>
>
> Topic: Electronics datasheet corpus?
>
> Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com> Jan 02 09:10AM -0600 ^
>
> Hey all,
>
> I was wondering if anyone had a corpus of PDF datasheets of electronic
> components. I know there are many suppliers on the net that provide
> data sheets, but if someone already has a giant .tar.gz of this data,
> that would be fantastic. Thanks.
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
>
>
>
> Topic: Dremelfuge, the one-piece low-cost centrifuge
>
> Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com> Jan 02 09:02AM -0600 ^
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 12:05 AM, wulfdesign wrote:
>> it defines various shapes for CSG.
>> just need to figure out the basic shapes and sizes and re-assemble
>> them in Rhino to get a perfect re-creation.
>
> I guess if OpenSCAD is going to stay around for a while, someone
> should buckle down and write an SCAD grammar parser and convert to
> BRLCAD's CSG system, and then from there export to STEP or IGES.
>
> An OpenSCAD example provided in the .tar.gz:
>
> // example010.dat generated using octave:
> // d = (sin(1:0.2:10)' * cos(1:0.2:10)) * 10;
> // save("example010.dat", "d");
>
> intersection()
> {
> surface(file = "example010.dat",
> center = true, convexity = 5);
>
> rotate(45, [0, 0, 1])
> surface(file = "example010.dat",
> center = true, convexity = 5);
> }
>
>> and GSG the shapes out or together.
>> (it would create a pretty good replication, but may not be exact since
>> the mesh point may be off by a bit)
>
> This sounds very manual-labor intensive.
>
>> I'll see if I can hack on it later.
>
> What were your results?
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
>
>
>
> --
>
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>
John Griessen
Octopart also has an API, and appear open to
> discussing ways that people might work with them.
.
.
An integrated BOM format that allows someone to
> create a shopping cart at a number of different suppliers at once
> would be fantastic (see this: http://www.abebooks.com/ they are a
> consortium of independent used booksellers I use all the time because
> of this feature).
I like this idea because books from low cost sellers is a good analogy to
sellers of manufacturing leftover chips, small quantities of new chips.
The needs of open hardware developers is often going to be in the small
volume range where the IC maker won't deal with piddly orders so looking
for the price break quantities and the Asian leftover sellers is the way to
get a reasonable small batch price.
John
Bryan Bishop
> This is a little off-topic and ranges wide, so bear with me (GOSH
> folks read copied email below, and watch the videos here:
> http://heybryan.org/)
Hey Jon. Thanks for the email. It's good to hear from you again. What
have you been up to, how goes our prosthesis army?
> To your question, I've got no tarball, but I didn't see any reference
> on the open manufacturing list (I'm a neub) to Octopart:
> http://octopart.com/
> They have datasheets from all over, and most importantly, you can
> compare prices from the major distributors. This site is useful in a
> way that DigiKey has never been, despite the fact that Digi has nearly
> everything for sale. Octopart also has an API, and appear open to
> discussing ways that people might work with them.
Yep, exactly. I've been thinking about spending some money to have a
mechanical turk convert the PDF datasheets into YAML/JSON or something
of that nature, so that our programs can read and make use of
datasheet information. (There's also EDIX for those of us counting at
home, but there's only one example file out on the net for it.)
There's also the potential to write a parser to extract data from the
PDF files, or a simple regular expression hack (or something like it)-
especially when certain suppliers have a good number of datasheets all
formatted in the same way in their PDFs.
> I bring this up because in your quest to create an apt-get for
> hardware (skdb-get?), you must consider that a very important part of
Yep, we even have a small script in the SKDB repository right now
called "skdb-get.py".. it's really tiny, but it's been growing. It's
our baby.
> the process will be ordering stock parts from somewhere, and the
> availability and convenience of specing these parts is crucial to the
> format's success. An integrated BOM format that allows someone to
Yes, absolutely. A strong advantage of having electronics parts
specified in these datasheets- in these computationally useful
datasheet format- is that it becomes easy enough for a computer to
find replacement parts or ways to convert voltages and currents
without human intervention.
> create a shopping cart at a number of different suppliers at once
> would be fantastic (see this: http://www.abebooks.com/ they are a
> consortium of independent used booksellers I use all the time because
> of this feature).
I've been working on a program that can do this- putting in multiple
orders across multiple websites at the same time, even on websites
that aren't compliant or interested in providing usable interfaces and
APIs. But before I put more work into this, I figure it's a good idea
to work on getting the datasheets typed up.
> In any case, your email made me think of CAD files available from
> distributors in the same way that electronic datasheets are. These
> supplier databases interfaces are basically awful, but can be a source
I've found that a lot of mechanical part catalogs are sketchy-
sometimes they have CAD files, other times they do not. And sometimes
they have completely unusable data.
> of CAD files in a variety of formats, and often include links to
> purchase the products. If your skdb database format were creatable in
> an automated way from crawling these CAD repositories, it would be a
That could be done.. but the downside, again, is that catalog data is
always sketchy- even when it's coming straight from the suppliers.
Because the data is sketchy, I wouldn't feel good about automatically
purchasing parts that "might" match the specs that the user intended.
For this reason maybe we'll just make SKDB ask the user to manually
inspect the BOM and shopping cart, and ask them if this is what they
want- obviously for "advanced" users that are willing to put in a
little time. But overall the time that they put into making sure the
parts are indeed what they want, that time is overall less than the
amount of time it would have taken to do this de novo or from scratch
on their own. For SKDB packages and parts that we have more data
about, a lot of that can be automated away and the user just sees:
sudo skdb-get install washing machine
WARNING: need to buy 3 parts and build 2.
COST: $48.37 USD
SHIPPING: 5 days total
Is this okay? [Y/N] yes
... assembling your washing machine ...
> great way to add functionality that included automated shopping cart
> and price comparison features (create cart using cheapest available
> with no shipping time over 1 wk and no supplier under 3.5 stars,
> etc.). See these sites with CAD:
You got it- that's it!
I have never seen a website worse than McMaster. I can't even get it
to load in Firefox.
> *** GOSH Relevancy***
> I am particularly excited by the possibility that your skdb-get idea
> has for open hardware licensing. As we all probably know, despite many
> efforts (TAPR, etc.) because of the difference from the patent vs.
> copyright basis of hardware and software, there is no equivalent of
> the automatic protection afforded softeware/artwork by copyright or
> the GPL. (See this discussion:
> http://www.keimform.de/2009/12/09/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/
> ). The reason that software is even afforded this protection has to do
> with the copy of the program that is created in the RAM of the
> computer when it is run
> (http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise20.html).
>
> I think that your skdb format has the potential to make completely
> distributed custom manufacturing a possibility, and I offer this idea:
> if your skdb-get format is capable of generating manufacturing code
> (G-code or STLs, etc.) that is used in the RAM of a CAD/CAM setup when
It is with the help of other open source software.
> parts are created, or even in the RAM of a web server or client
> computer in the creation of a shopping cart of parts, wouldn't the
> copyleft provisions of the GPL and copyright apply? In other words, in
To be honest, I don't know. The main licensing issue that people worry
about here is "what if some big company steals my designs and makes a
million of the parts without a nod to me". For now we've been
licensing all SKDB packages as GPL 2+. People on thingiverse, ponoko,
shapeways seem to be licensing their designs as CC SA 3. The real
trick is whether or not the licensing will hold up in the court of law
(if it ever has to). I'd be interested in talking with someone from
the EFF on this in the near future.
> your quest to make dealing with hardware as easy as software through
> format, have you opened the door for copyleft protection of hardware?
Maybe.. let's seek advice from the EFF peeps.
> This only works if the format is functional to the point of creating
> the design, because the ideas behind the physical assembly cannot be
> protected in this way. However, if skdb became the default format for
> the interchange of this information, then the barriers to extracting
> the information and using it in a way that subverts the copyleft (or
> copyright) become identical to the problem of protecting software
> source code from reverse engineering.
I see, you're thinking about designs. In which case, yes, absolutely.
The physical instantiation of the designs, the physical assemblies,
are where most people get perplexed. It's definitely a problem. The
format is also useful for creating the physical assembly, because it
lists manufacturing processes and build requirements-- though the SKDB
software is what will ultimately hack out a path/route for you to
build those manufacturing processes given what you currently have in
your inventory, etc. Can you elaborate on this? Does this change
anything for you?
Onward!
Bryan Bishop
> FAB FAB FAB!
You said it. :-)
> This is very, very exciting. Hi all, Greg Elin, new CTO of United Cerebral
> Palsy here.
Hello Greg.
> FWIW, I'm friends Brian Behlendorf who was a lead in the building Apache and
> Subversion. Also know Tim O'Reilly and Dale Dougherty at O'Reilly and Make
> Magazine. Be happy to make introductions if the relationships do not already
> exist.
I would absolutely love to be introduced to anyone you could possibly
introduce me to.. let's talk sometime. :-) I haven't met Tim or Brian
yet, but I certainly would like to.
CubeSpawn
it, but what I'm NOT hearing in this discussion is EDI, realizing that
EDI does not solve the physical part description problem in-and-of
itself.
But that leads me to the question of where does SKDB's functionality
stop? Will it attempt to supplant the fairly rich ecosystem of
applications and data standards relating to e-commerce between
industrial trading partners - or is it more of a control mechanism to
advise them? I think its important to to evaluate the scope, (and you
may have this all sewed up, for all I know) since if nothing more -
anything you don't have to build yourself has the potential to speed
the process up of getting to a finished system.
James
On Jan 6, 11:14 am, Bryan Bishop <kanz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 6:14 AM, Greg Elin <g...@fotonotes.net> wrote:
> > FAB FAB FAB!
>
> You said it. :-)
>
> > This is very, very exciting. Hi all, Greg Elin, new CTO of United Cerebral
> > Palsy here.
>
> Hello Greg.
>
> > FWIW, I'm friends Brian Behlendorf who was a lead in the building Apache and
> > Subversion. Also know Tim O'Reilly and Dale Dougherty at O'Reilly and Make
> > Magazine. Be happy to make introductions if the relationships do not already
> > exist.
>
> I would absolutely love to be introduced to anyone you could possibly
> introduce me to.. let's talk sometime. :-) I haven't met Tim or Brian
> yet, but I certainly would like to.
>
> - Bryanhttp://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507