Sexiness in RPG's
TrosKompas en TV Krant
beautiful tail and the cute little ass. I also appreciate the way the women
are dressed, showing much of their breasts and buttocks. To me it is not the
main thing of course - who would buy a game just because some of these tiny
little figures look a bit sexy, it is just not enough for any real erotic
thrill, but it is a small aesthetic delight that adds to the overall thrill
of the game. I think a bit of sexiness belongs within a RPG. As I understand
it, it is part of the fantasy-world. Ian Livingstone said this about
Deathtrap Dungeon when he was criticised because the main character looked
to sexy. I agree with him. All those beautiful covers of AD&D books like
the Forgotten Realms series also depect beautiful and sexy dressed women
besideds dragons and forests and wizards. So, a bit of sexyness just belongs
within the fantasy-genre. But I miss it in most games. That is why I think
PT is so perfect. It is the best RPG I ever played in almost all aspects. I
admire the plot, the dialogue, the magical way in which it is really the
words, the story, that makes the game, even though the graphics are great.
What I don靖 like is the Planescape setting; I prefer the classical
fantasyworld like in Badur零 Gate. But that is another topic. I wonder how
other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPG零.
me
physique "conan the barbarian" type wearing almost next to nothing... you
know they're gay.
TrosKompas en TV Krant wrote in message
<8dhu6a$rse$1...@nereid.worldonline.nl>...
Lost Dragon
>other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPGąs.
Personally, I wish developers would ditch the G-String look and clothe
women in something that real people might actually consider wearing.
The busty superhero in a chainmail bikini just seems silly (and way
overdone).
/| .oo__. .-----.=- -= Lost Dragon =- -=.-----. U
{ \| ,-'' | _O_ |==- -= Forever Dead Forgotten Lie =- -==| _O_ | D
`,_/'(_)\_ | | |==- Remembered Souls, They Cannot Die -==| | | I
<...{_)_)_''`-----`===-- http://www.lostdragon.com/ --==='-----' C
GSV Three Minds in a Can
<lostd...@worldnet.att.net> elegantly stated
>>fantasyworld like in Badur零 Gate. But that is another topic. I wonder how
>>other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPG零.
>
>Personally, I wish developers would ditch the G-String look and clothe
>women in something that real people might actually consider wearing.
>
>The busty superhero in a chainmail bikini just seems silly (and way
>overdone).
You don't need the G-String look. cf Mrs Bishop (and her daughter) in
Fallout2. Some really clever little graphic artist managed to pack more
sex into a few pixels than Playboy(tm) manages in the average issue.
GSV Three Minds in a Can
MsJudi
First
>TrosKompas en TV Krant
said:
><8dhu6a$rse$1...@nereid.worldonline.nl>...
>>One of the things I like in Planescape: Torment is the sexy Annah with the
>>beautiful tail and the cute little ass. I also appreciate the way the women
>>are dressed, showing much of their breasts and buttocks. To me it is not
>the
and then <some...@therain.bow> wrote:
>It goes both ways my man. Have you seen the guys in those rpgs? Muscular
>physique "conan the barbarian" type wearing almost next to nothing... you
>know they're gay.
One gets turned on by sexy cartoon drawings of women, the other is
threatened by sexy cartoon drawings of men.
Before the little ones can make the ubiquitous claims about my
following post because it threatens their burgeoning sexuality, let me
go ahead and answer them, right up front:
1) I'm not an old crone... I'm 35... a YOUNG 35.
2) I'm not ugly... I'm quite beautiful and sexy.
3) I'm not gay... I'm married for 17 years.
4) I'm not a man-hater... see #3.
5) I don't need to "get a life"... I have one that keeps me busier
than I EVER thought life could keep a human being.
Now that we have that out of the way, let's get down to the meat of
the issue. Sexism is rampant in computer games. It just *is*. Why?
Because sexism is rampant in game players.
Game companies, contrary to popular belief, aren't stupid. They know
what sells, and they know where the biggest market share is for their
product: single boys between the ages of 13 and 25.
Let's face it: teenage boys have no sex life. Before you start
shouting that you're 16 and get laid every weekend, let me remind you
that those of us who've passed 16 know better. Game programmers know
better, too, and they know that any thrill, even a cartooney one in
the midst of blood and gore hack-n-slash games, is more valuable to
their bottom line than good game play. They feed you crap, they dress
it up pretty and you buy it. You also buy the lie. The one that
postulates that sexy women with long blonde locks, hourglass figures
and badass attitudes are just standing around, waiting to soak their
panties like the Nile river over your prowess in Quake.
And these clever busy bee programmers know something else: that ain't
never gonna happen. So they show you busty, poorly-dressed babes with
machine guns and you (predictably) salivate and open your (parents)
wallets.
Now, personally, I'd rather have a housewife in my gaming party than
some wimpy but cute bimbo... catch a housewife on a *good* day and
she's likely to wipe the floor with your ass. Catch her on a bad day
and you're dogmeat. Catch her on a bad day and put a broadsword in her
hands and you better fucking RUN, cos nothing, and I mean *nothing*,
is gonna survive. She's never wimped out, not once in her life. She
doesn't wear thigh-high boots with 6 inch heels because she knows
without a doubt that no one can stand toe-to-toe with a level 30 orge
mage for ten minutes and whup up on his ass when your feet hurt. She
knows that you can't sneak up on even the most stone-deaf giant rat
with those heels clacking away on the dungeon floor. She know that a
strapless bustier doesn't count for shit when fire archers are lobbing
bombs at you and your armor plated comrades.
She's not weak, though most programmers make female characters weaker
than men and unable to equip the best shit. She's carried 2 babies in
her arms with 5 bags of groceries dangling off her fingers at least 3
times a week. She's removed and replaced the back seat of the GMC
Suburban twice a day for the last 3 years. She's hauled a king sized
mattress off the frame a thousand times in the last 10 years just to
clean under it.
And don't even talk to me about stamina. That housewife having a bad
day has already been up a solid 8 hours before you've dragged your
butt out of bed, and slain more dragons in that time than you'll ever
see in a lifetime. While you're drinking a beer in the barcolounger at
9 pm, trying to decide if you'd rather sleep or watch another hour of
WWF, she's just hitting her stride. She's got another 4 hours ahead of
her, filled with dirty toilets and rank laundry and picking lint out
of the corners because your mother is coming to inspect... errr...
visit tomorrow.
Intelligence? She's got it out the wazoo. How many people can do the
taxes, keep 3 pre-teens from setting fire to the bathroom with a bic
lighter and 2 of her best linen sheets, answer a phone that never
stops ringing and make a grocery list in her head... ALL AT THE SAME
TIME? Think she can handle "complex" spell casting, like tossing a
fireball at the goblin hiding in the corner? With her eyes closed,
boys.
Let's sum up. Petite little jail-bait minces around in 6-inch spike
heels and has a max AC of 12 (which is ok, since it matches her IQ
perfectly.) She fires her wimpy arrows from a wimpy distance of 30
feet and can't remember if ice magic douses fire magic. She says
"eek... oh, GROSS" when she's swarmed by the undead and thinks the
best way to deal with armor-chewing cockroaches is an industrial-sized
can of Raid.
Mean mother-fucker housewives know how to deal with dwarves because
she's put three of them through college. She can outwit the dragon
lurking in his cave because just yesterday she bullied one into
shelling out 300.00 to replace the front door when an elf from down
the street talked one of her own dwarves into using it for shooting
practice with his new bb gun. She can take out a wyrven in one hit
from 50 paces with a pea-shooter because she did it when a bat got
into the attic.
So, if you want to make game marketer's dreams come true, keep
coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
them. When you're ready to really PLAY, come see me... I wear sensible
shoes, carry my own broadsword and I'm having a really bad day.
Judi
Daryl Forrest
Your attitude is admirable, and your writing style is fantastic: witty, no-
holes-barred honest, and VERY literate. Yours was the best post I've read
in a LONG time!
- Daryl Forrest
mc...@mastnet.net (MsJudi) wrote in
<krv8OOJIekHiYA...@4ax.com>:
The T Stands for Smooth
"Lost Dragon" <lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3eapfsgrnsnd5dtgc...@4ax.com...
> >fantasyworld like in Badur零 Gate. But that is another topic. I wonder
how
> >other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPG零.
>
> Personally, I wish developers would ditch the G-String look and clothe
> women in something that real people might actually consider wearing.
>
> The busty superhero in a chainmail bikini just seems silly (and way
> overdone).
Amen Brother Ben... what halfway intelligent female would go adventuring in
a bikini? Makes no sense whatsoever.
Brad Thomas
>physique "conan the barbarian" type wearing almost next to nothing... you
>know they're gay.
"Now, Dagon, I'm not going out to fight those goblins with my greaves
looking like this. They just don't match my breastplate and...DAMN, a rivet is
coming out of my helm."
"To win 100 victories in 100 battles is not the acme of skill.
To subdue one's enemy without fighting, this is the acme of skill."
Sun Tzu
Torment
time!
MsJudi <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote in message
news:krv8OOJIekHiYA...@4ax.com...
Torment
stuff on as the game progresses. Diablo.
Lost Dragon <lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3eapfsgrnsnd5dtgc...@4ax.com...
> >fantasyworld like in Badur零 Gate. But that is another topic. I wonder
how
> >other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPG零.
>
> Personally, I wish developers would ditch the G-String look and clothe
> women in something that real people might actually consider wearing.
>
> The busty superhero in a chainmail bikini just seems silly (and way
> overdone).
>
>
me
the market. Take a look at the top selling games last year. Games such as
Rollercoaster Tycoon and Myst are gender biased. The last biggest hit so
far (sales-wise) is "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" and where's the sex in
that? What about Deer Hunter? A lot of folks in the newsgroup think that
popular newsgroups game represent the masses, they don't. When it comes
down to it, it's fun factor. Who in here have bought a game based on what
the chick is wearing in that game? Don't tell me that some folks bought
Planescape just because of that chick with the tail. Check out this
newsgroup and you would see that less than 1% of planescape thread were
about her. I think it's just blown out of proportion. Don't base the
entire industry on Tomb Raider.
Now, muscular gay guys are a different story. Guy games are all about
breaking stuff and blowing up shit. A big muscular guy looks like he could
break more stuff than little guys and therefore a big guy should be the lead
character. Have you seen any tiny ass guys playing football? Hockey?
Basketball? Nope, and for a good reason... they can't break stuff.
Peacedog1
>The busty superhero in a chainmail bikini just seems silly (and way
>overdone).
And not the least bit practical. Can't a hard working adventuring female get
chainmail that protects her *and* makes her look good doing it?
Seriously, the "skimpy outfit" for adventuring women in games is awfully old.
Kind of sad really.
Gregory J. Wageman
MsJudi <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote:
>[Flame Alert/Humor Alert]
>
>Before the little ones can make the ubiquitous claims about my
>following post because it threatens their burgeoning sexuality, let me
>go ahead and answer them, right up front:
>
>1) I'm not an old crone... I'm 35... a YOUNG 35.
>2) I'm not ugly... I'm quite beautiful and sexy.
>3) I'm not gay... I'm married for 17 years.
>4) I'm not a man-hater... see #3.
>5) I don't need to "get a life"... I have one that keeps me busier
>than I EVER thought life could keep a human being.
>
>
>So, if you want to make game marketer's dreams come true, keep
>coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
>them. When you're ready to really PLAY, come see me... I wear sensible
>shoes, carry my own broadsword and I'm having a really bad day.
LOL! That was great, Judi.
I think it's men under 30 who think with their genitals that basically want
the slut-bimbo type. Men over 40 in the waning stages of testosterone
intoxication generally appreciate the value of a woman who can cook, run
the household, sustain a career and still manage to have a sense of humor
at the end of the day. The occasional lucky guy manages to land both in
the same package. Of course that requires a contract with supernatural
beings involving commerce in certain metaphysical attributes...
Trouble is, I can't see the marketing department at EA or Origin or
Interplay getting behind a hack-n-slash starring..."your Mom". ;-)
Then again, I could see Roseann Barr taking on a dragon or two. She could
beat one just with her scathing delivery. :-)
--
-Greg
---
Please wait while the system writes unsavory data to the disk.
Slash
scribbled:
[snip]
>So, if you want to make game marketer's dreams come true, keep
>coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
>them. When you're ready to really PLAY, come see me... I wear sensible
>shoes, carry my own broadsword and I'm having a really bad day.
With that out of the way, what are your *true* feelings regarding the
topic?
<g>
>Judi
-Slash
"The people on the internet know more about what I am doing than I do.
Like, they will say that I am going to be in this mall on this day
and sure enough I am there."
- Tori Amos, Dew Drop Inn Tour, 17-June-1996
JimP
foot plate, the woman has a bare midriff? Sexy women and half-naked
barbarian surfer dudes are okay in the right setting (maybe as spell casters
or thieves or townies) but not when their fellows look like titanium beer
cans. (I've always wnated to see the half naked Conan-dude get cut down by
an arrow in the belly.)
The strongest man should perhaps be stronger than the strongest woman
(before you flame me for this, why else is the Olympics segregated by sex?),
but a lot of women are stonger than some men (Joe Beer Belly comes to mind).
Speed, IQ, etc., should be independent of sex.
Beatiful sexy women are cool, more so in real life than in a game of
kill-the-evil-moron. (Why is the evil one always male, and why does he hang
around in the bottom of a dank, stinking pit?)
Jim
Tom Meyer
. She know that a
> strapless bustier doesn't count for shit when fire archers are lobbing
> bombs at you and your armor plated comrades.
>
> She's not weak, though most programmers make female characters weaker
> than men and unable to equip the best shit.
>
>
spell casting, like tossing a
> fireball at the goblin hiding in the corner? With her eyes closed,
> boys.
>
> Let's sum up. Petite little jail-bait minces around in 6-inch spike
> heels and has a max AC of 12 (which is ok, since it matches her IQ
> perfectly.) She fires her wimpy arrows from a wimpy distance of 30
> feet and can't remember if ice magic douses fire magic. She says
> "eek... oh, GROSS" when she's swarmed by the undead and thinks the
> best way to deal with armor-chewing cockroaches is an industrial-sized
> can of Raid.
>
> coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
> them.
What the hell RPG's do you play? Barbie Fashion Dungeon Hack? Just about all
the RPG's I've played have females that cast spells and mindlessly cut apart
ogres in full armor alongside the males.
Tom
me
Belly.
Peacedog1 wrote in message <20000418234021...@ng-fn1.aol.com>...
>>From: "JimP" nob...@nowhere.com
>
>>(Joe Beer Belly comes to mind).
>
>Who exactly is Joe Beer Belly?
>
>Why on earth did his parents name him that?
>
>:)
Kazoo King
<kennaway_...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>Lost Dragon <lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:3eapfsgrnsnd5dtgc...@4ax.com...
I wonder
>how
>> >other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPG?s.
>>
>> Personally, I wish developers would ditch the G-String look
and clothe
>> women in something that real people might actually consider
wearing.
>>
(and way
>> overdone).
Women don't need armour because the orcs don't try to kill them.
They have their reasons.
> Yeah, the "chainmail bikini" has always seemed ridiculous to
me.
>However, I like to see places like The Hive with it's
scantily-clad
>prostitutes, and The Mortuary with it's bare-breasted female
corpses. To
>me, these things aren't sexy -- they're realistic. Showing some
skin just
>to make a game sexier just reduces the realism for me, but on
the other so
>does hiding it when it's appropriate.
What about showing some skin to make the game funnier? As in
Beneath A Steel Sky?
> BTW, while we're on the topic, has anyone checked out the
"Characters"
>page at the PoR:RoMD website? Take a look at the female elf --
can we say
>*beaver*!
Uh... beaver? :)
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Ykalon Dragon
>
> "Lost Dragon" <lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3eapfsgrnsnd5dtgc...@4ax.com...
> how
> > >other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPGąs.
> >
> > Personally, I wish developers would ditch the G-String look and clothe
> > women in something that real people might actually consider wearing.
> >
> > The busty superhero in a chainmail bikini just seems silly (and way
> > overdone).
>
> a bikini? Makes no sense whatsoever.
Speaking of chainmail and chicks, why has no one done a "Chicks in
chainmail" crpg? BTW "Chicks in chainmail" were written by women.
--
My games for trade http://ugtz.com/users/Patrik.html
ICQ # 45086408
Brian H.
Your party in FR will wear plate armors, guantlets, helms, boots, and
(yuck!) girdles, and they wield shields. (*grin*) Those coverings of
fantasy books are all fake.
I think it's good to add some sexiness in a game. Just like put some
chilli in your dish to make it a little bit hot & spicy, and
delicious! But please don't put many! I like chilli but I don't like
to eat a whole dish of chilli!
In article <8dhu6a$rse$1...@nereid.worldonline.nl>,
"TrosKompas en TV Krant" <reda...@trosaudaxmedia.nl> wrote:
> One of the things I like in Planescape: Torment is the sexy Annah
with the
> beautiful tail and the cute little ass. I also appreciate the way the
women
> are dressed, showing much of their breasts and buttocks. To me it is
not the
> What I donšt like is the Planescape setting; I prefer the classical
> fantasyworld like in Baduršs Gate. But that is another topic. I
wonder how
> other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPGšs.
>
>
--
Brian.
Human beings can send to bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net.
Spammers can send to bh1...@my-deja.com because I never use it.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Brian H.
mc...@mastnet.net wrote:
(*snip*)
>
You are talking about your old wife, aren't you?
Nostromo
--
To reply via e-mail *when solicited* and given *express permission*
to do so, please replace 'spamfree' with 'labyrinth'...
Brian H.
"The T Stands for Smooth" <smo...@home.com> wrote:
>
> "Lost Dragon" <lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3eapfsgrnsnd5dtgc...@4ax.com...
wonder
> how
> > >other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPG零.
> >
> > Personally, I wish developers would ditch the G-String look and
clothe
> > women in something that real people might actually consider wearing.
> >
> > The busty superhero in a chainmail bikini just seems silly (and way
> > overdone).
>
> Amen Brother Ben... what halfway intelligent female would go
adventuring in
> a bikini? Makes no sense whatsoever.
>
>
Well, it makes sense because she has to. Otherwise the party leader
will dump her.
Brian H.
>
> You are talking about your old wife, aren't you?
>
> --
OOPS! The moment I press the send button I discovered that you are "Ms
Judi". So you are talking about yourself then...
Wilhelm Elmore
kind. Dressing a women up in a G-string does not make her beautiful.
Speaking of Torment, I found Fall-From-Grace ALOT more sexier than Annah ,
and she was fully clothed. Why? Well, first the voice... GOD! That voice! I
get goose-bumps whenever I hear her voice in the game. I also like the
mystery surrounding her. I always felt there was a bit of tension
surrounding her and her decision to be a chaste succubus, a contradiction in
terms if I ever saw one.The writers did a better job ( IMHO ) with Grace
than they did with Annah. I could really empathize with Grace.
Actually I'm in the middle of playing Torment now. I'm hoping, actually,
that any minute now Grace will turn to the Nameless One and shout, " I can't
take it anymore! Kiss me you sliced-up fool!". Shit, I'd do anything to find
out what she wrote in her diary....
<Sigh>
W. Elmore
Brian H.
masks and whips are not considered as weapons... Hmmmmm....
In article <8dj58p$559$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > What I don靖 like is the Planescape setting; I prefer the classical
> > fantasyworld like in Badur零 Gate. But that is another topic. I
> wonder how
> > other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPG零.
> >
> >
>
Cay
how
> >other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPG零.
>
> women in something that real people might actually consider wearing.
>
> The busty superhero in a chainmail bikini just seems silly (and way
> overdone).
Yeah, the "chainmail bikini" has always seemed ridiculous to me.
However, I like to see places like The Hive with it's scantily-clad
prostitutes, and The Mortuary with it's bare-breasted female corpses. To
me, these things aren't sexy -- they're realistic. Showing some skin just
to make a game sexier just reduces the realism for me, but on the other so
does hiding it when it's appropriate.
BTW, while we're on the topic, has anyone checked out the "Characters"
page at the PoR:RoMD website? Take a look at the female elf -- can we say
*beaver*!
http://www.poolofradiance.com/char_a.htm
Later,
Cay
The T Stands for Smooth
> However, I like to see places like The Hive with it's scantily-clad
> prostitutes, and The Mortuary with it's bare-breasted female corpses. To
> me, these things aren't sexy -- they're realistic.
Read that statement again...
The T Stands for Smooth
"Brian H." <bh1...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8dj60t$62s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <6Y4L4.109124$8S2.1...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>,
> "The T Stands for Smooth" <smo...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > news:3eapfsgrnsnd5dtgc...@4ax.com...
> > > >fantasyworld like in Badur零 Gate. But that is another topic. I
> wonder
> > how
> > > >other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPG零.
> > >
> > > Personally, I wish developers would ditch the G-String look and
> clothe
> > > women in something that real people might actually consider wearing.
> > >
> > > The busty superhero in a chainmail bikini just seems silly (and way
> > > overdone).
> >
> adventuring in
> > a bikini? Makes no sense whatsoever.
> >
> >
>
> Well, it makes sense because she has to. Otherwise the party leader
> will dump her.
I suppose, if you're playing a pimp :)
Brian H.
> > >
> > > Amen Brother Ben... what halfway intelligent female would go
> > adventuring in
> > > a bikini? Makes no sense whatsoever.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Well, it makes sense because she has to. Otherwise the party leader
> > will dump her.
>
> I suppose, if you're playing a pimp :)
>
>
LOL!
She will be useful for luring monsters in mating seasons to chase her
while all other party members shoot arrows at them. =)
Peacedog1
kromm
Is it his looks? What about the hair? I know, it's his posture--the
way he stands there, next to the bar. Cuz he's not wearing a shirt?
Oh no, Oh God, please dont tell me it's that cheesy medallion he's
sporting!!
kromm
Nostromo
Hey mate, youz tokin' ta mi??? Guido Hatzis is my ril name, yanki-doodle;
TNO is just ma jockstrap brand, okay!?
(You'd have to be Aussie & listen to Melbourne radio MMM to appreciate that
one!)
mr bernard langham
Tell it like it is, soul sister :)
>^..^<
Bernard
--
mr bernard langham . blueboy@(diespamdie)ii.net . perth, western ashtraylia
cassetteNET/DIY lo-fi punkarama/indie vs major FAQ http://ii.net/~blueboy
--
"Feel free to cite, sample, steal, sell, reference, borrow or plagiarize
anything that I have created, thought or said. Information wants to be free
and intellectual property is both anachronistic and wrong" -- Meme #96
MsJudi
wrote:
>(Snipped a lot of PC drivel)
I'll type this slowly, so you'll understand before you spout off
again.
Exactly how is it "PC" for a woman (namely, me) to stand up and say to
game programmers, marketers and sexist gamers that women can and
should be taken seriously? Isn't it a bit more like fighting for my
right to see the money I invest in CRPG companies (by purchasing their
products) go into programming sexist-free environments, and not the
least bit like PC-ism?
Frankly, the old "PC sucks just because it does" argument has grown
tired. It has become the refuge of those who need to invalidate an
argument simply because they can't come up with a reasoned and
sensible counter-point. Scream, "ugh, how PC", roll your eyes as if
you've just stated a profundity, and others of the same ilk will thump
you on the back and give you attaboys, congratulating you on your
wisdom and insight.
Feh.
Though you may not believe this, when I buy a game off the shelf I pay
the same amount as you do to buy the same game. That gives me the same
right as anyone to query our favorite programmers as to why my
character is wearing a tu-tu while my husband's character gets a
bitchin' breastplate and steel greaves.
To their credit, 3DO seems to balance their characters, at least in
the games I've played. Others need to follow suit or watch their
revenue drop off. Face it boys, we have money... and we spend it on
more than floor cleaners and manicures.
'Nuff said... I have a casserole in the oven.
Judi
Cay
news:lC9L4.109310$8S2.1...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
Yes, why?
-Cay
Cay
Kazoo King <satyrguy...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0151f0d0...@usw-ex0103-018.remarq.com...
> >Lost Dragon <lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> >news:3eapfsgrnsnd5dtgc...@4ax.com...
>
> me.
> scantily-clad
> >prostitutes, and The Mortuary with it's bare-breasted female
> corpses. To
> skin just
> >to make a game sexier just reduces the realism for me, but on
> the other so
> >does hiding it when it's appropriate.
>
> Beneath A Steel Sky?
>
> "Characters"
> >page at the PoR:RoMD website? Take a look at the female elf --
> can we say
> >*beaver*!
>
Yup, she's actually a helpless rodent disguised as a scantilty-clad female
elf. Probably hoping that adolescent, male humans will only see the
disguise, and will let her live instead of killing her for sport. (cf.
squirrel-killing in Baldur's Gate)
-Cay
Kevin McGuire
<<snip>>
Bravo.
--
Kevin McGuire
University of Pennsylvania
http://www.theenergyco-op.com/ <-- 100% Green Electricity in PA!
Jonas Lind
fantasy-setting is not supposed to realistically reflect ordinary medieval
settings, and as such should not be treated such. At that time a woman was
about as much worth as 5 cows and a chicken, aside from the fact that women
could bake and mend, and cows couldn't. The powerstructure was patriarcistic
(hmm..sp?), and women didn't have any say whatsover. Men where the only
creatures allowed to own anything, besides widows that is.
Peasant were not allowed to have weapons due to fear of uprisings, only
military had real weapons, and as such it is a complete unrealistic notion
to have 4-6 "Adventurers" going out to save the world. And even if they
tried, they'd all be out in two months. One would die from a festering
arrow-wound, two would die of the plague, 1 would drown in a river cause he
forgot to remove his armor, 1 would die falling off his horse and breaking
his neck and the last would spend the rest of his puny years in jail while
he's teeth rotted away due to malnutrition, because some lord didn't like
his looks.
The whole point of this is, that fantasy-settings have a certain creativity
and romance that sets it apart from the realistic medieval setting, where
you weren't allowed on the streets past 22.00 because of curfews, and you
died after 35 years of harsh living...if you were lucky.
So yes maybe housewifes kick ass (although I find it somewhat difficult to
believe, even after your entertaining contribution), but they are not part
of the setting. Oldtime novels set in a fantasyworld, and made before
computers where maintream, do not include 200 pounds of malignant musle
armed with dowrolls doing 3D8 damage. What they do include is damsels in
distress, and flashy rogues with a nack of saving them, and earning half the
fiefdom.
You can't blame computergames for including those parts in their fantasy
setting, because that is what a "real" fantasy setting is all about.
Escapism. Not diehard reality with an attitude.
jonas
MsJudi <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote in message
news:krv8OOJIekHiYA...@4ax.com...
>
> Before the little ones can make the ubiquitous claims about my
> following post because it threatens their burgeoning sexuality, let me
> go ahead and answer them, right up front:
>
> 1) I'm not an old crone... I'm 35... a YOUNG 35.
> 2) I'm not ugly... I'm quite beautiful and sexy.
> 3) I'm not gay... I'm married for 17 years.
> 4) I'm not a man-hater... see #3.
> 5) I don't need to "get a life"... I have one that keeps me busier
> than I EVER thought life could keep a human being.
>
> Now that we have that out of the way, let's get down to the meat of
> the issue. Sexism is rampant in computer games. It just *is*. Why?
> Because sexism is rampant in game players.
>
> Game companies, contrary to popular belief, aren't stupid. They know
> what sells, and they know where the biggest market share is for their
> product: single boys between the ages of 13 and 25.
>
> Let's face it: teenage boys have no sex life. Before you start
> shouting that you're 16 and get laid every weekend, let me remind you
> that those of us who've passed 16 know better. Game programmers know
> better, too, and they know that any thrill, even a cartooney one in
> the midst of blood and gore hack-n-slash games, is more valuable to
> their bottom line than good game play. They feed you crap, they dress
> it up pretty and you buy it. You also buy the lie. The one that
> postulates that sexy women with long blonde locks, hourglass figures
> and badass attitudes are just standing around, waiting to soak their
> panties like the Nile river over your prowess in Quake.
>
> And these clever busy bee programmers know something else: that ain't
> never gonna happen. So they show you busty, poorly-dressed babes with
> machine guns and you (predictably) salivate and open your (parents)
> wallets.
> So, if you want to make game marketer's dreams come true, keep
> coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
> them. When you're ready to really PLAY, come see me... I wear sensible
> shoes, carry my own broadsword and I'm having a really bad day.
>
>
> Judi
hermy...@my-deja.com
>
> Exactly how is it "PC" for a woman (namely, me) to stand up and say to
> game programmers, marketers and sexist gamers that women can and
> should be taken seriously? Isn't it a bit more like fighting for my
> right to see the money I invest in CRPG companies (by purchasing their
> products) go into programming sexist-free environments, and not the
> least bit like PC-ism?
>
You really must be female, because only a woman could invalidate her
entire first statement by posting something completely contrary.
Congratulations. In your earlier post you, yourself, stated that this
industry is driven by and for males age 15-30ish by and large who
probably don't get laid too much, have some lacking social skills, and
don't get much sunlight. Do you really think that some game developer
gives a holy hell about a few little moms or girlfriends who may pick
up the occasional copy of Diablo II or Baldur's Gate? Get real. You
aren't even a blip on the radar and this likely will not change. It is
the age old argument about the sexes. It is why men will go see Rambo
and women will go see Titanic. This is hard coded genetics when you
boil it down to its most base element. Are there exceptions to this
rule? Sure, just like all things in life. But we are talking majority
here not minority, and as you said, the bottom line is all that
matters. In that respect, you don't matter, way to invalidate your own
argument. So don't go getting your panties all bunched up sweety. There
will won't be any major changes like this in the near future unless
developers really want to shoot themselves in the foot.
> Frankly, the old "PC sucks just because it does" argument has grown
> tired. It has become the refuge of those who need to invalidate an
> argument simply because they can't come up with a reasoned and
> sensible counter-point. Scream, "ugh, how PC", roll your eyes as if
> you've just stated a profundity, and others of the same ilk will thump
> you on the back and give you attaboys, congratulating you on your
> wisdom and insight.
>
See my above statement for me completely invalidating your argument...
> Though you may not believe this, when I buy a game off the shelf I pay
> the same amount as you do to buy the same game. That gives me the same
> right as anyone to query our favorite programmers as to why my
> character is wearing a tu-tu while my husband's character gets a
> bitchin' breastplate and steel greaves.
>
See my above statement again.
>
> 'Nuff said... I have a casserole in the oven.
>
> Judi
Why don't you go get on that babe, I'm sure hubby is mighty hungry
after a hard day playing Diablo 2 beta test.
David Short
Gregory J. Wageman wrote in message
<8dir0m$rra$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>...
>In article <krv8OOJIekHiYA...@4ax.com>,
>MsJudi <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote:
>>[Flame Alert/Humor Alert]
snip
>>So, if you want to make game marketer's dreams come true, keep
>>coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
>>them. When you're ready to really PLAY, come see me... I wear sensible
>>shoes, carry my own broadsword and I'm having a really bad day.
>
>LOL! That was great, Judi.
>
Agreed.
Thank you MsJudi.
You can join my party anytime.
dfs
Thrash
> breaking stuff and blowing up shit. A big muscular guy looks like he could
> break more stuff than little guys and therefore a big guy should be the lead
> character. Have you seen any tiny ass guys playing football? Hockey?
> Basketball? Nope, and for a good reason... they can't break stuff.
Damn straight.
*grunt*
Thrash
Olaf
are predominantly played by heterosexual males, so it doesnt seem too out of
whack to cater to that market, does it? As for realism, well chances are in a
CRPG, a chick in a chainmail bikini is probably one of the most realistic
elements included.
olaf
L.J. Wischik
>[mindless sexist drivel snipped]
hermyhermit, what you wrote was offensive, sexist and wrong. *plonk*
--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu
Jonas Lind
mr bernard langham <blu...@diespamdie.ii.net> wrote in message
news:38fddbd4$0$23...@motown.iinet.net.au...
> > The whole point of this is, that fantasy-settings have a certain
> creativity
> > and romance that sets it apart from the realistic medieval setting,
where
> > you weren't allowed on the streets past 22.00 because of curfews, and
you
> > died after 35 years of harsh living...if you were lucky.
>
> I've got news for you.
>
> >^..^<
> Bernard
>
That's not the point, and you know it.
jonas
Qwibble
Heh - Thanks Judi
*BUT*
Your sexism comments are unwarranted. We are talking about *FANTASY* RPGs
here. I don't think you will ever get men to stop fantasizing about women.
Also, I submit that if you ever have personal fantasies of yourself in a
traditional RPG setting, that you are not wearing jeans, sweatshirt and
cross-trainer shoes...
Scantily dressed sexy babes in hand-to-hand combat and casting spells is
about as believable as dragons, wizards, imps et al. To invalidate one
element because it is unreal is to invalidate the whole milieu, and so then
why bother? Spend your time shopping up a nice cruise instead - it sounds
like you need a break. Norwegian Cruise Line has a chocolate buffet...
Dr. Tongue
news:8dkiav$m6e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> You really must be female, because only a woman
<snip>
> is mighty hungry
> after a hard day playing Diablo 2 beta test.
You are an idiot. Your parents are most likely idiots as well or perhaps
you just figured out how to be this stupid on your own? God help us all
if you breed. Oh, and good luck with that bigotry thing! You'll find it
comes in handy whenever you don't understand something which, I'm
guessing, happens a lot.
sbe...@dowco.com
everyone in a game dresses like a prostitute, or when the majority of female
roles in a game are primarily sex objects, I feel embarassed. Such blatant
pandering sets off my internal cynicism detector, and impairs my enjoyment of
the game (sex farces such as Leisure Suit Larry excepted). I know the needs of
the marketplace, but I'm not an adolescent anymore, and I don't need to be
treated like one. You don't have to descend to wank levels to appreciate the
human form.
I like the women in PS:T, but because Annah, FFG (and Ravel) are strong roles
and interesting to interact with, not (just) because their very talented artists
made them look good.
Scott Bennie
Thurein
: You really must be female, because only a woman could invalidate her
: entire first statement by posting something completely contrary.
<snip pointless drivel...>
You must be one of the most ignorant people I have ever seen on usenet,
and *that* is quite an accomplishment.
Congratulations, idiot.
--
Dr. Tongue
news:8dkf96$q32$1...@news.net.uni-c.dk...
<snip>
> So yes maybe housewifes kick ass (although I find it somewhat difficult
to
> believe, even after your entertaining contribution), but they are not
part
> of the setting. Oldtime novels set in a fantasyworld, and made before
> computers where maintream, do not include 200 pounds of malignant musle
> armed with dowrolls doing 3D8 damage. What they do include is damsels in
> distress, and flashy rogues with a nack of saving them, and earning half
the
> fiefdom.
So why can't a flashy rogue (possessing either set of genitals) save the
prince in distress? Her point was simply that she'd like to slip into the
role of an ass-kicking female that looks like an ass-kicking female *and*
that it's too bad that the mentality of the average male geek (of any age)
tends toward the immature and prevents her from having what she would
like.
Are either of those points so contentious that you feel compelled to
challenge them?
Thurein
: Exactly how is it "PC" for a woman (namely, me) to stand up and say to
: game programmers, marketers and sexist gamers that women can and
: should be taken seriously? Isn't it a bit more like fighting for my
<snip>
: Judi
Judi-
You are absolutely correct. Bravo. I've found that Planescape: Torment
is a great game... but the blatant sexism does detract from the experience.
Many programmers, it appears, will just never learn. :(
-Thurein
--
Gerry Quinn
>Now, personally, I'd rather have a housewife in my gaming party than
>some wimpy but cute bimbo... catch a housewife on a *good* day and
>she's likely to wipe the floor with your ass. Catch her on a bad day
>and you're dogmeat. Catch her on a bad day and put a broadsword in her
>hands and you better fucking RUN, cos nothing, and I mean *nothing*,
>is gonna survive. She's never wimped out, not once in her life. She
>doesn't wear thigh-high boots with 6 inch heels because she knows
>without a doubt that no one can stand toe-to-toe with a level 30 orge
>mage for ten minutes and whup up on his ass when your feet hurt. She
>knows that you can't sneak up on even the most stone-deaf giant rat
>with those heels clacking away on the dungeon floor. She know that a
>strapless bustier doesn't count for shit when fire archers are lobbing
>bombs at you and your armor plated comrades.
>
I just don't see her in an RPG, but I think she might be suitable for
the next HOMM.
It could have an Amazon city, with seven types of female monster. I see
the Angry Housewife as level 3, with a special 'nag' attack that reduces
morale by 1 every time she hits.
Are you listening, Gus?
- Gerry Quinn
Mirror Spock
* Robinson
--
"No one questions the assassination of a Captain who disobeys prime
orders of the Empire."
-- Ensign Pavel Chekov, "Mirror, Mirror"
MsJudi
<snippity snip>
Oh, goody, a troll! Nice try, baby blue boy, but I've got thicker skin
than that ;)
Judi
m...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
as not a troll.
Scantily clad pixel chicks have been around the CRPGs, as long
as there's been the graphics to drawn them adequately. They're
so ubiquitous that they just blend into the background and do
a fade to black. Kinda like the impaled dead folk littering the
landscape of Diablo, it just becomes invisible after a while.
So I really couldn't care either way.
That said, I have to wonder if some of these game artists have forgotten
what is good looking. Remember that action game Sin, the makers
were quick to trot out the villainess of it as the next hot chick.
Thing is the woman had a face that only a mother could love. She
had a big ugly ass frown that covered most of her face, making her
look like an orc out of Warcraft and the makeup plastered all over
her face came out of the school of Tammy Faye Baker. The sad thing
I saw some initial character sketches and the toned down, more elegant,
early versions of her were much better looking than the cheap skank
look that they finally chose. Then there's the Deathtrap Dungeons
girl (Eidos were hoping to score another Lara Croft-like success).
Initially she only had a chainmail g-string and pasties, later
complaints made Eidos slap on a bodysuit. In either case, it wouldn't
have mattered the character looked really bland and lifeless. Eidos
kept putting out ads with her standing next to Lara Croft, with captions
going "Lara would like to introduce a new friend" and so you had
this girl in a black leotard. S'okay but the face had no personality
just a really banal smile. Nothing that gets up and grabs you.
Especially compared to the portrait works in the Diablo or FO1 manuals.
Those characters have personality, whether humorous and ironic in FO or
powerful, barbaric and brooding like in Diablo. The two earlier
examples seem to have their personalities sucked through a blender,
they just stand there like a lump and stare off into space. Who
cares if their tits are the same size as their heads, the same could
be said for Barbie (though I have to say the Barbie dolls in Toy
Story 2 looked good, Airline Stewardess Barbie was really cute
when she kept flirting with Mr Potatohead).
Some girl portraits that look really good, well there's the women from
the PSX fantasy tactics game Kartia and the Terra/Celes of FF6. They
were all done by the same artist and while they'll not be to everyone's
taste (they have an art deco style), they have this expressiveness
in their face that's really appealing (the guy is especially good
at drawing wistful smiles).
In article <8dhu6a$rse$1...@nereid.worldonline.nl>,
"TrosKompas en TV Krant" <reda...@trosaudaxmedia.nl> wrote:
> One of the things I like in Planescape: Torment is the sexy Annah
with the
> beautiful tail and the cute little ass. I also appreciate the way the
women
> are dressed, showing much of their breasts and buttocks. To me it is
not the
> main thing of course - who would buy a game just because some of
these tiny
> little figures look a bit sexy, it is just not enough for any real
erotic
> thrill, but it is a small aesthetic delight that adds to the overall
thrill
> of the game. I think a bit of sexiness belongs within a RPG. As I
understand
> it, it is part of the fantasy-world. Ian Livingstone said this about
> Deathtrap Dungeon when he was criticised because the main character
looked
> to sexy. I agree with him. All those beautiful covers of AD&D books
like
> the Forgotten Realms series also depect beautiful and sexy dressed
women
> besideds dragons and forests and wizards. So, a bit of sexyness just
belongs
> within the fantasy-genre. But I miss it in most games. That is why I
think
> PT is so perfect. It is the best RPG I ever played in almost all
aspects. I
> admire the plot, the dialogue, the magical way in which it is really
the
> words, the story, that makes the game, even though the graphics are
great.
> What I donšt like is the Planescape setting; I prefer the classical
> fantasyworld like in Baduršs Gate. But that is another topic. I
wonder how
> other players think about sexyness belonging within CRPGšs.
Gabriele Neukam
the will and imagination to describe the world as such:
Now, tell me what is the general good in breaking stuff. Or is it just
the genetically defined inclination of male behaviour to think
"breaking stuff is the greatest thing since sliced bread"? Even
breaking women?
I', 38, female, definitely not a chick (got a face like a horse), and
am playing Might and Magic VI at present, where female characters are
as able as male, which I do prefer, too.
I don't think the MM series did sell any worse just because they
didn't add some nearly naked gogo girls. It is pure hack-n-slash,
which most probably would invite this "selling tactics", but no one
seems to be missing these bunnies.
If companies can sell games better if they are bolstered up with nude
women, it sheds a light on the buyers, not the best one.
Meredith Dixon
you actually believe any of what you just said....
On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:10:20 GMT, "Qwibble"
<pat...@pugetsound.nospam.net> wrote:
>Also, I submit that if you ever have personal fantasies of yourself in a
>traditional RPG setting, that you are not wearing jeans, sweatshirt and
>cross-trainer shoes...
Personally, when I have personal fantasies of myself in a
traditional RPG setting, I'm wearing mail that provides good,
solid protection for most of my body, as any sensible person
would, not a chainmail bikini.
>Scantily dressed sexy babes in hand-to-hand combat and casting spells is
>about as believable as dragons, wizards, imps et al. To invalidate one
>element because it is unreal is to invalidate the whole milieu, and so then
>why bother?
*blinks* Because I've never considered "scantily dressed sexy
babes" an essential part of the milieu in question.
--
Meredith Dixon <dix...@pobox.com>
Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying.
And for those who want to help.
http://www.pobox.com/~dixonm/raven.html
The T Stands for Smooth
"Olaf" <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5E0395C7AF4A5A8C.8CEE3139...@lp.airnews.net...
> Whats wrong with females in CRPGs being scantily clad?
Because it makes no sense.
The T Stands for Smooth
"Gregory J. Wageman" <g...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:8dir0m$rra$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> In article <krv8OOJIekHiYA...@4ax.com>,
> MsJudi <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote:
> >[Flame Alert/Humor Alert]
> >
> >following post because it threatens their burgeoning sexuality, let me
> >go ahead and answer them, right up front:
> >
> >1) I'm not an old crone... I'm 35... a YOUNG 35.
> >2) I'm not ugly... I'm quite beautiful and sexy.
> >3) I'm not gay... I'm married for 17 years.
> >4) I'm not a man-hater... see #3.
> >5) I don't need to "get a life"... I have one that keeps me busier
> >than I EVER thought life could keep a human being.
> >
> >
> >So, if you want to make game marketer's dreams come true, keep
> >coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
> >them. When you're ready to really PLAY, come see me... I wear sensible
> >shoes, carry my own broadsword and I'm having a really bad day.
>
> LOL! That was great, Judi.
>
want
> the slut-bimbo type. Men over 40 in the waning stages of testosterone
> intoxication generally appreciate the value of a woman who can cook, run
> the household, sustain a career and still manage to have a sense of humor
> at the end of the day. The occasional lucky guy manages to land both in
> the same package.
Yep - I'm looking for June Cleaver during the day, <insert porn star name
here> at night :)
MsJudi
>Obviously you have never played Baldur's Gate.
That was pretty obvious to you, huh? Well, sorry to disappoint, but I
*did* buy Baulder's Gate, played it and didn't like it. Truth be told,
both my husband and I tried (co-op,) to get through the game and
couldn't manage to survive much past the first couple of maps. As a
result, while we like very challenging games, we lost interest pretty
quickly. Glad you found it enjoyable, but why should I be limited to
games I don't like just because of my gender?
>Bottom line; what you say you want already exists. Go buy the game.
True, there are game companies who now and then get a clue. They
should be applauded for their efforts, and I am the first one to give
them a courtesy call and let them know I appreciate their efforts.
That doesn't change the fact that they are the *exceptions* and not
the rule. Should we women, as an entire gender, be excluded from
enjoying all but a few rare games just because cartoons with tits is
the industry standard?
Let's face it, the gaming industry is ignoring a potential goldmine by
alienating women from the gaming experience. Exactly what is the point
of it? As my old dad would say, "that's cutting your nose of to spite
your face." Would you, as a man, NOT buy a good game if it didn't
contain T&A? I doubt it. What's wrong with actually expanding one's
market share (and a few minds in the process) by taking in the
(shocking?) reality that horny teenage boys aren't the ONLY ones who
play computer games?
Another point I'd like to make: sexiness doesn't necessarily translate
into flashy glimpses of T&A. A game can be sexy without having to
resort to the old tired standard; all it takes is a little imagination
on the part of programmers, and I think we'd all agree that the last
thing we want is programmers who think in the box.
Judi
me
>On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:07:29 -0700, "me" <some...@therain.bow> had
>the will and imagination to describe the world as such:
>
>>Now, muscular gay guys are a different story. Guy games are all about
>>breaking stuff and blowing up shit. A big muscular guy looks like he
could
>>break more stuff than little guys and therefore a big guy should be the
lead
>>character. Have you seen any tiny ass guys playing football? Hockey?
>>Basketball? Nope, and for a good reason... they can't break stuff.
>
>Now, tell me what is the general good in breaking stuff. Or is it just
>the genetically defined inclination of male behaviour to think
>"breaking stuff is the greatest thing since sliced bread"? Even
>breaking women?
Tell me what is the general good in collecting pretty stuff that most female
do? Decorating and color coordinating? At least breaking stuff is fun.
>I', 38, female, definitely not a chick (got a face like a horse), and
>am playing Might and Magic VI at present, where female characters are
>as able as male, which I do prefer, too.
>
>I don't think the MM series did sell any worse just because they
>didn't add some nearly naked gogo girls. It is pure hack-n-slash,
>which most probably would invite this "selling tactics", but no one
>seems to be missing these bunnies.
>
>If companies can sell games better if they are bolstered up with nude
>women, it sheds a light on the buyers, not the best one.
Tomb Raider does not represent the whole gaming industry. Gameplay is still
pretty much the reason why game sells, just check out the top 10 games sold
last year and top 5 are gender biased games. The nekkid chicks are just
there as a bonus, I don't really think it would influence sales (other than
Tomb Raider and porn).
Frank vd Eijkhof
>Judi
Well, Judi, if YOU react that way, I shouldn't be angry, right ;-)
But, I've two questions:
1. On what games are your thoughts based? And no, I'm not one of those
sex-hungry kids. But, still curious.
2. I discussed this with a friend of mine, who reacted: "But I don't get it -
female characters in the games I play are not strong, _but_ very agile, high
charisma, high stamina, high intelligence... I WANT them in my party!" - just
like female characters in the real world. Worse than that, male characters in
games seem to be strong, no brains, lots of sword-calluses :-(; not the kind
of man I want to be compared with...
On the average, women seem to have better characters than man in the games I
play. So, what do I miss? Do I overlook the sexy clothing? I must admit that
I won't find a computerpicture sexy - not even Lara. Do I miss something else?
I'm really interested.
happy gaming,
Frank
Patrick Mcginley
: One gets turned on by sexy cartoon drawings of women, the other is
: threatened by sexy cartoon drawings of men.
Mark my words people, in the interest of "making everything fair" we're
all going to be playing RPG's with fat and ugly female representations.
We'll be playing characters like:
* Elanor Roosevelt, a thief who is beautiful on the inside
* Margaret Thatcher, a tough warrior of conservatism
* Mother Therisa, the cleric
* Betsy Ross, a mage who warned of British invasion with her flashlight
* Martina Navritalova, needs the help of Mother Therisa
Oh, they may all be real women who have contributed to society, but big
freaking deal. I don't want to look at their mugs for 100 hours straight
in the interest of keeping all sectors of society happy. I don't want to
view ugly or EVEN AVERAGE! If I want to see average, I'll walk down the
street. I spent this heap of money on a computer, not to make myself a
better person, but to play games, games that escape reality a little.
I really don't want to change the world. I don't like people sticking
their noses and spreading their political views wherever they see a
discrepancy. My game playing should be enjoyable. It should not be like
being at a sexual harrasment prevention seminar.
--
The name's Poochie D And I rock the telly,
I'm half Joe Camel And a third Fonzarelli.
I'm the kung fu hippy From gangsta city,
I'm a rappin' surfer, You the fool I pity.
Frank vd Eijkhof
>Let's face it, the gaming industry is ignoring a potential goldmine by
>alienating women from the gaming experience. Exactly what is the point
>of it?
Maybe because it wasn't noticed as a goldmine? I am really enlightened by your
remarkes, but now that you mention it: more and more newspaperarticles mention
the female internetuser as big potential - merely because they are expected to
buy more - and this fact might have to land in gameland...
>As my old dad would say, "that's cutting your nose of to spite
>your face." Would you, as a man, NOT buy a good game if it didn't
>contain T&A? I doubt it. What's wrong with actually expanding one's
>market share (and a few minds in the process) by taking in the
>(shocking?) reality that horny teenage boys aren't the ONLY ones who
>play computer games?
Well, I feel almost embarrassed to say that I have _never_ bought games for
their supposed sexy ideas; never even thought about the idea. Well, I suppose
some do but for that reason.
>Another point I'd like to make: sexiness doesn't necessarily translate
>into flashy glimpses of T&A. A game can be sexy without having to
>resort to the old tired standard; all it takes is a little imagination
>on the part of programmers, and I think we'd all agree that the last
>thing we want is programmers who think in the box.
That is something which baffles me all the time; a long skirt is - for me -
more erotic than a short one. Most people seem to think that sexy = nude,
and mysticism is not applicable to sex. But, I'm digressing.
Thanks for pointing out this track!
happy gaming,
Frank
Djutmose Buteamon
hermy...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Exactly how is it "PC" for a woman (namely, me) to stand up and say to
> > game programmers, marketers and sexist gamers that women can and
> > should be taken seriously? Isn't it a bit more like fighting for my
> > right to see the money I invest in CRPG companies (by purchasing their
> > products) go into programming sexist-free environments, and not the
> > least bit like PC-ism?
> >
>
> You really must be female, because only a woman could invalidate her
> entire first statement by posting something completely contrary.
> Why don't you go get on that babe, I'm sure hubby is mighty hungry
> after a hard day playing Diablo 2 beta test.
>
Coder52
interact with to be immensely attractive, but I also enjoy variety too.
For instance, I really appreciated the variety of characters that were
available in Everquest: from the alluring thong-wearing wood elf females to
the cute and grumpy-looking gnome males.
I thought the portrait selection from Baldur's gate for male characters was
excellent. I could not resist having an all-male pack during a customized
game in this instance; the thief, fighter, and wizard portraits (or at least
that's what the guys looked like according to their clothes) were all 9-10
on a looks level. Yummy.
I would have selected some of the women from Baldur's for my party, but they
looked like aging prostitutes!
Tom Meyer
news:B2f9OCHUE=ygeItNzYB...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:22:05 -0500, "Tom Meyer" <jke...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >(Snipped a lot of PC drivel)
>
> I'll type this slowly, so you'll understand before you spout off
> again.
What does it matter what speed you type your post at? I'll still read it at
the same speed.
> Though you may not believe this, when I buy a game off the shelf I pay
> the same amount as you do to buy the same game. That gives me the same
> right as anyone to query our favorite programmers as to why my
> character is wearing a tu-tu while my husband's character gets a
> bitchin' breastplate and steel greaves.
I'll ask again: what bloody RPG's do you play? The great majority of RPG's
I've played had women equal to the men. In Baldur's Gate, Branwen was a
mace-wielding full-plate wearing spell-casting bad-ass. In Fallout, the
female party member had a mohawk and threw deadly knives like nobody's
business. In Albion, both female party members were my primary fighters. In
Diablo, by the end, the rogue cast spells and shot deadly arrows fast and
furious in full-body, wicked armor. In Diablo 2, the amazon's going to be an
ass-kicker. In Heroes of Might and Magic 3, there is no difference between
men and women in terms of abilities. In Jagged Alliance 2, the women wear
armor and helmets, toting grenade launchers just like the men. Need I go on?
I think not. So once again, tell me what games support your original rant.
Tom
John Carey
Ykalon Dragon <yka...@SoftHome.net> wrote in message
news:38FCE871...@SoftHome.net...
> Speaking of chainmail and chicks, why has no one done a "Chicks in
> chainmail" crpg? BTW "Chicks in chainmail" were written by women.
> --
> My games for trade http://ugtz.com/users/Patrik.html
> ICQ # 45086408
Could file it along with a game based on the Cramps "Bikini Girls with
Machine Guns"--the next Action game.
John Carey
Cay <kennaway_...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:Id9L4.38158$2D6.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> Lost Dragon <lostd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3eapfsgrnsnd5dtgc...@4ax.com...
).
>
> Yeah, the "chainmail bikini" has always seemed ridiculous to me.
> However, I like to see places like The Hive with it's scantily-clad
> prostitutes, and The Mortuary with it's bare-breasted female corpses. To
> me, these things aren't sexy -- they're realistic. Showing some skin just
> to make a game sexier just reduces the realism for me, but on the other so
> does hiding it when it's appropriate.
>
In the case of the prostitutes sure. But the upper class women in P:T wear
even less than the prostitutes and that's rather odd.
John Carey
>
> The whole point of this is, that fantasy-settings have a certain
creativity
> and romance that sets it apart from the realistic medieval setting,
>
> So yes maybe housewifes kick ass (although I find it somewhat difficult to
> believe, even after your entertaining contribution), but they are not part
> of the setting. Oldtime novels set in a fantasyworld, and made before
> computers where maintream, do not include 200 pounds of malignant musle
> armed with dowrolls doing 3D8 damage. What they do include is damsels in
> distress, and flashy rogues with a nack of saving them, and earning half
the
> fiefdom.
>
If you're going to defend it in terms of traditional fairy tales, the
damsels in distress were not that scantily clad (unless they had just been
ravished, I suppose). And the woman who goes to war with the men is a
recurring theme in fantasy (e.g. Eowyn) and occurs in history as well (Joan
of Arc). If Eowyn is clad in a chain mail bikini in the Lord of the Rings
movie, I may assassinate the director.
The scantily clad women tend to be more of a fixture of fantasy art than
fiction. I suspect the author's real point is that if you're going to have
woman warriors in games, they ought to plausibly look and dress like
warriors. I don't see why having rangy, athletic-looking heroines with
normal armor as causing some great loss of romance. Not that they have to
be ugly--I could see modelling a fantasy heroin after Gabriela Sabatini, for
example. But they shouldn't all have to be gorgeous (or ugly old crones).
Aslog
TCH wrote in message <38fe141e...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:00:43 -0500, MsJudi <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Now that we have that out of the way, let's get down to the meat of
>>the issue. Sexism is rampant in computer games. It just *is*. Why?
>>Because sexism is rampant in game players.
>
>Obviously you have never played Baldur's Gate. The sex of the character
>makes absolutely *zero* difference. When you roll a character and gender
is
>chosen you see this message: "This is an aesthetic choice and will not
>affect your attributes in any fashion." Bottom line; what you say you want
>already exists. Go buy the game.
I have, but I will never buy Ultima IX (not a great loss from what I have
read in this newsgroup) or Planetscape Torment which otherwise sounds like
the kind a game I would enjoy, but I do not buy games, that forces me to
play as a male character.
That for me is the real sexism.
Aslog
MsJudi
wrote:
>"MsJudi" <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote in message
>news:B2f9OCHUE=ygeItNzYB...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:22:05 -0500, "Tom Meyer" <jke...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >(Snipped a lot of PC drivel)
>>
>> I'll type this slowly, so you'll understand before you spout off
>> again.
>
>What does it matter what speed you type your post at? I'll still read it at
>the same speed.
Not real familiar with sarcasm, are you?
>> Though you may not believe this, when I buy a game off the shelf I pay
>> the same amount as you do to buy the same game. That gives me the same
>> right as anyone to query our favorite programmers as to why my
>> character is wearing a tu-tu while my husband's character gets a
>> bitchin' breastplate and steel greaves.
>
>I'll ask again: what bloody RPG's do you play? The great majority of RPG's
>I've played had women equal to the men. In Baldur's Gate,
I already answered your comment about Baulder's Gate... Reading
comprehension: C-
>In Fallout, the
>female party member had a mohawk and threw deadly knives like nobody's
>business.
Fallout I tried as well. Husband loved it, I wasn't so impressed. Go
figure. I think it was the futuristic setting more than anything that
turned me off. I like dragons and serene forest glens filled with
nasty little critters just dying to chew off my toes. In fact, while I
loved the MM6-8 series, when both 6 and 7 turned (in the end) towards
fighting machines, my enjoyment of the games declined sharply. High
tech, for me, clashes jarringly with the fantasy world of medieval
settings. It jerks me *out* of the fantasy experience, which I don't
enjoy when I'm tooling along, bashing ogres. YMMV (your milage may
vary.)
>In Albion, both female party members were my primary fighters.
Never heard of it. We're talking true RPG, here, I assume? Not a
hack-n-slash or a shooter (neither of which manages to hold my
interest for more than a few minutes.)
>In Diablo, by the end, the rogue cast spells and shot deadly arrows fast and
>furious in full-body, wicked armor.
Loved Diablo and played the rogue almost exclusively. Why did she have
to start out in her undies? Think it was because that's what her
counterpart male companions were wearing? Or because it was
titillating? You've used all three of your lifelines... you can leave
now with your 2000$ or take a chance and guess, what's it gonna be?
(Ok, so I don't do a convincing Regis... never liked him anyway.)
>In Diablo 2, the amazon's going to be an
>ass-kicker.
We can only hope. Betcha dollars to donuts she starts out as a hot
little number in a thong and a headband... and not much else. Getting
turned on yet? Blizzard sure hopes so.
>In Heroes of Might and Magic 3, there is no difference between
>men and women in terms of abilities.
Whoops, reading comprehension down to a D-... didn't I say in my last
response to you that 3DO is one of the few standouts in the field?
>In Jagged Alliance 2, the women wear
>armor and helmets, toting grenade launchers just like the men.
Never heard of that one, but if they're toting "grenade launchers" I
don't think I'll be very interested. (Think I'm difficult? You dunno
the half of it.) I prefer CRPGs which stick to the
medieval/dungeons/orge genre. Hey, that's just me.
>So once again, tell me what games support your original rant.
Nox leaps immediately to mind, since I just spent a pretty penny on it
two nights ago. Oh, man, could I relate to that loser geek guy sitting
in his recliner watching TV! Yeah, baby, give me more of that!
<simulated panting sounds can be heard faintly in the background>
Besides RPGs I'm also fond of city-building sims along the line of
SimCity, Caesar, etc. In every one of those games, without fail, the
mayor, pharaoh, leader-to-be is automatically *assumed* to be male.
"Pharaoh Judi, Sir, the Hitites are attacking the city!" Blah.
Now a question for you, Tom. If your gaming experiences are so vastly
different from mine (as they obviously seem to be), and you're so sure
that there's no, zero, zippo, you-must-be-fucking-looney-lady sexism
in games (never seen T&A used for the sole purpose of getting a tingle
out of small boys, have you?), marketing (ever seen the scrolling ads
for Majesty? "Your kingdom awaits, Sire!") and gamers (some of whom
proved my point so deliciously by doing a rather bad job of trolling
right here in this newsgroup), why exactly is your nose so out of
joint over my original post, in which I tried to show a modicum of
grace and humor while still (apparently, if I can judge by the email
flooding my box these days) getting my point across?
Oh, and one more thing. You never answered my question about how in
the world it could be "PC" for me (a woman) to be saying that I'd like
to see more power and less flesh in the female party members I'm
offered in CRPGs... *that*I*paid*full*price*for*just*like*you*did*!
Judi
Paul Angstrom
message <sfsu4j...@corp.supernews.com>:
> have, but I will never buy Ultima IX (not a great loss from what I have
>read in this newsgroup) or Planetscape Torment which otherwise sounds like
>the kind a game I would enjoy, but I do not buy games, that forces me to
>play as a male character.
>That for me is the real sexism.
Well, missing out on Planescape Torment is your loss.
Due to the highly specific plot-oriented nature of the game, allowing a
female character would force a significant rewrite of the script. Unlike
other RPGs such as Fallout, Ultima, and Might&Magic, PS:T is written
such that it would be impossible to allow a drop-in cookie-cutter
generic player character of any race and/or sex.
It *may* have been possible to allow a female character, but it would
have required a significantly different second plot to replace the
original. Interactions and dialogue with NPCs would have had to be
rewritten, and TNO's history would have had to be redone (with regard to
Ravel and Deionarra). For example, cutting out the Deionarra memory
stone sequence would have been a great loss.
Given that the text in the game totalled about 1,000,000 words
(according to lead designer Chris Avellone), such a rewrite to
accomodate the plot changes would have been prohibitively difficult.
The decision to limit PS:T's choice of player character allowed for a
deeper, more intimate plot than would have otherwise been possible.
MsJudi
>Hey, Goldmine,
The name's Judi... but you can call me Ma'am.
>Here are some ideas:
>1. There should be a quest that kill all stinking rapists.
>2. Another quest to save all kids kidnapped by child abusers.
>3. There must be lots of gems & fashions for you to collect.
>4. Some skills like barter & "gossip" must be of high importance.
>5. Your protagonist in the game must have a "family" to protect.
>
>Hm... what else? I am not a goldmine! I supposed most programmers
>aren't goldmines too...
When you hit puberty you might re-think your narrow POV about women.
Then again, you may always be this shallow.
Judi
mr bernard langham
creativity
> you weren't allowed on the streets past 22.00 because of curfews, and you
> died after 35 years of harsh living...if you were lucky.
You think that women in chainmail bikinis == creativity and romance, eh?
I've got news for you.
>^..^<
Bernard
--
mr bernard langham . blueboy@(diespamdie)ii.net . perth, western ashtraylia
cassetteNET/DIY lo-fi punkarama/indie vs major FAQ http://ii.net/~blueboy
--
"Feel free to cite, sample, steal, sell, reference, borrow or plagiarize
anything that I have created, thought or said. Information wants to be free
and intellectual property is both anachronistic and wrong" -- Meme #96
Twin Ion Engine
>On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:22:05 -0500, "Tom Meyer" <jke...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>(Snipped a lot of PC drivel)
>
>I'll type this slowly, so you'll understand before you spout off
>again.
>
>game programmers, marketers and sexist gamers that women can and
>should be taken seriously? Isn't it a bit more like fighting for my
[snip]
The day there are more women buying games. When I go to a shopping mall, I
felt that it screamed out at women. Many boutiques are women friendly but
seldom men friendly. Same thing in games.
Twin Ion Engine
>I suppose I shouldn't feed the troll, but on the off chance that
>you actually believe any of what you just said....
>
>On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:10:20 GMT, "Qwibble"
><pat...@pugetsound.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>Also, I submit that if you ever have personal fantasies of yourself in a
>>traditional RPG setting, that you are not wearing jeans, sweatshirt and
>>cross-trainer shoes...
>
>Personally, when I have personal fantasies of myself in a
>traditional RPG setting, I'm wearing mail that provides good,
>solid protection for most of my body, as any sensible person
>would, not a chainmail bikini.
>
>>Scantily dressed sexy babes in hand-to-hand combat and casting spells is
>>about as believable as dragons, wizards, imps et al. To invalidate one
>>element because it is unreal is to invalidate the whole milieu, and so then
>>why bother?
>
>*blinks* Because I've never considered "scantily dressed sexy
>babes" an essential part of the milieu in question.
But you don't know that. A scantily clad female warrior might distract a few
lecherous bandits while she pound their collective heads with her mace.
Besides, wearing fewer armour (as opposed to the turtle-like knights)
increased her agility.
Personally, I find the likes of Xena just right. She might look
"scantily-clad" at first glance but it afforded her to back-flip, twirl and
basically do evil stuff with her broadsword and that round thingie.
In fact, it would look very ridiculous if she is clad in one-inch steel.
Brian H.
twi...@imperial.navy.squadron (Twin Ion Engine) wrote:
(*snip*)
>
> Besides, wearing fewer armour (as opposed to the turtle-like knights)
> increased her agility.
>
> Personally, I find the likes of Xena just right. She might look
> "scantily-clad" at first glance but it afforded her to back-flip,
twirl and
> basically do evil stuff with her broadsword and that round thingie.
> In fact, it would look very ridiculous if she is clad in one-inch
steel.
>
>
Good point.
But the CRPGs implemented so far does not deal with this issue well.
Heavy armors do not impose any penalties on reactions or agility on the
wearers. Maybe there is, the effect is unnoticeable.
--
Brian.
Human beings can send to bh1234...@nospam.please.ismart.net.
Spammers can send to bh1...@my-deja.com because I never use it.
Brian H.
I agree!
The clothes of those upper class women are so sexy that they look like
prostitutes.
That's why I think they should be naked instead.
Brian H.
mc...@mastnet.net wrote:
(*snip*)
>
> Let's face it, the gaming industry is ignoring a potential goldmine by
> alienating women from the gaming experience. Exactly what is the point
> your face." Would you, as a man, NOT buy a good game if it didn't
> contain T&A? I doubt it. What's wrong with actually expanding one's
> market share (and a few minds in the process) by taking in the
> (shocking?) reality that horny teenage boys aren't the ONLY ones who
> play computer games?
>
Hey, Goldmine, you have to tell the game developers what exactly
a "Housewife CRPGs" looks like before they got any idea to implement
one!
Here are some ideas:
1. There should be a quest that kill all stinking rapists.
2. Another quest to save all kids kidnapped by child abusers.
3. There must be lots of gems & fashions for you to collect.
4. Some skills like barter & "gossip" must be of high importance.
5. Your protagonist in the game must have a "family" to protect.
Hm... what else? I am not a goldmine! I supposed most programmers
aren't goldmines too...
--
Lorna Ronacher
most intelligent and funniest post I have read in a very long while.
MsJudi <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote in message
news:krv8OOJIekHiYA...@4ax.com...
> [Flame Alert/Humor Alert]
>
> First
>
> >TrosKompas en TV Krant
>
> said:
>
> ><8dhu6a$rse$1...@nereid.worldonline.nl>...
> >>One of the things I like in Planescape: Torment is the sexy Annah with
the
> >>beautiful tail and the cute little ass. I also appreciate the way the
women
> >>are dressed, showing much of their breasts and buttocks. To me it is not
> >the
>
> and then <some...@therain.bow> wrote:
>
> >It goes both ways my man. Have you seen the guys in those rpgs?
Muscular
> >physique "conan the barbarian" type wearing almost next to nothing... you
> >know they're gay.
>
> One gets turned on by sexy cartoon drawings of women, the other is
> threatened by sexy cartoon drawings of men.
>
> Before the little ones can make the ubiquitous claims about my
> following post because it threatens their burgeoning sexuality, let me
> go ahead and answer them, right up front:
>
> 1) I'm not an old crone... I'm 35... a YOUNG 35.
> 2) I'm not ugly... I'm quite beautiful and sexy.
> 3) I'm not gay... I'm married for 17 years.
> 4) I'm not a man-hater... see #3.
> 5) I don't need to "get a life"... I have one that keeps me busier
> than I EVER thought life could keep a human being.
>
> Now that we have that out of the way, let's get down to the meat of
> the issue. Sexism is rampant in computer games. It just *is*. Why?
> Because sexism is rampant in game players.
>
> Game companies, contrary to popular belief, aren't stupid. They know
> what sells, and they know where the biggest market share is for their
> product: single boys between the ages of 13 and 25.
>
> Let's face it: teenage boys have no sex life. Before you start
> shouting that you're 16 and get laid every weekend, let me remind you
> that those of us who've passed 16 know better. Game programmers know
> better, too, and they know that any thrill, even a cartooney one in
> the midst of blood and gore hack-n-slash games, is more valuable to
> their bottom line than good game play. They feed you crap, they dress
> it up pretty and you buy it. You also buy the lie. The one that
> postulates that sexy women with long blonde locks, hourglass figures
> and badass attitudes are just standing around, waiting to soak their
> panties like the Nile river over your prowess in Quake.
>
> And these clever busy bee programmers know something else: that ain't
> never gonna happen. So they show you busty, poorly-dressed babes with
> machine guns and you (predictably) salivate and open your (parents)
> wallets.
>
> Now, personally, I'd rather have a housewife in my gaming party than
> some wimpy but cute bimbo... catch a housewife on a *good* day and
> she's likely to wipe the floor with your ass. Catch her on a bad day
> and you're dogmeat. Catch her on a bad day and put a broadsword in her
> hands and you better fucking RUN, cos nothing, and I mean *nothing*,
> is gonna survive. She's never wimped out, not once in her life. She
> doesn't wear thigh-high boots with 6 inch heels because she knows
> without a doubt that no one can stand toe-to-toe with a level 30 orge
> mage for ten minutes and whup up on his ass when your feet hurt. She
> knows that you can't sneak up on even the most stone-deaf giant rat
> with those heels clacking away on the dungeon floor. She know that a
> strapless bustier doesn't count for shit when fire archers are lobbing
> bombs at you and your armor plated comrades.
>
> She's not weak, though most programmers make female characters weaker
> than men and unable to equip the best shit. She's carried 2 babies in
> her arms with 5 bags of groceries dangling off her fingers at least 3
> times a week. She's removed and replaced the back seat of the GMC
> Suburban twice a day for the last 3 years. She's hauled a king sized
> mattress off the frame a thousand times in the last 10 years just to
> clean under it.
>
> And don't even talk to me about stamina. That housewife having a bad
> day has already been up a solid 8 hours before you've dragged your
> butt out of bed, and slain more dragons in that time than you'll ever
> see in a lifetime. While you're drinking a beer in the barcolounger at
> 9 pm, trying to decide if you'd rather sleep or watch another hour of
> WWF, she's just hitting her stride. She's got another 4 hours ahead of
> her, filled with dirty toilets and rank laundry and picking lint out
> of the corners because your mother is coming to inspect... errr...
> visit tomorrow.
>
> Intelligence? She's got it out the wazoo. How many people can do the
> taxes, keep 3 pre-teens from setting fire to the bathroom with a bic
> lighter and 2 of her best linen sheets, answer a phone that never
> stops ringing and make a grocery list in her head... ALL AT THE SAME
> TIME? Think she can handle "complex" spell casting, like tossing a
> fireball at the goblin hiding in the corner? With her eyes closed,
> boys.
>
> Let's sum up. Petite little jail-bait minces around in 6-inch spike
> heels and has a max AC of 12 (which is ok, since it matches her IQ
> perfectly.) She fires her wimpy arrows from a wimpy distance of 30
> feet and can't remember if ice magic douses fire magic. She says
> "eek... oh, GROSS" when she's swarmed by the undead and thinks the
> best way to deal with armor-chewing cockroaches is an industrial-sized
> can of Raid.
>
> Mean mother-fucker housewives know how to deal with dwarves because
> she's put three of them through college. She can outwit the dragon
> lurking in his cave because just yesterday she bullied one into
> shelling out 300.00 to replace the front door when an elf from down
> the street talked one of her own dwarves into using it for shooting
> practice with his new bb gun. She can take out a wyrven in one hit
> from 50 paces with a pea-shooter because she did it when a bat got
> into the attic.
>
> So, if you want to make game marketer's dreams come true, keep
> coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
> them. When you're ready to really PLAY, come see me... I wear sensible
> shoes, carry my own broadsword and I'm having a really bad day.
>
>
> Judi
Brian H.
In article <Q47+ONOcVqPa12...@4ax.com>,
mc...@mastnet.net wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:39:18 GMT, Brian H. <bh1...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >Hey, Goldmine,
>
> The name's Judi... but you can call me Ma'am.
>
> >Here are some ideas:
> >1. There should be a quest that kill all stinking rapists.
> >2. Another quest to save all kids kidnapped by child abusers.
> >3. There must be lots of gems & fashions for you to collect.
> >4. Some skills like barter & "gossip" must be of high importance.
> >5. Your protagonist in the game must have a "family" to protect.
> >
> >Hm... what else? I am not a goldmine! I supposed most programmers
> >aren't goldmines too...
>
> When you hit puberty you might re-think your narrow POV about women.
> Then again, you may always be this shallow.
>
> Judi
>
--
Jim P.
I'm just curious why you need to personally attack anyone who has an opinion
which differs from yours or questions something you say. Why do you need to
issue grades to Tom for reading comprehension? I could not find anything in
any of Tom's posts that you should have found offensive, yet you couldn't
help but put him down. Your "I'll type this slowly, so you understand . . ."
comment seemed quite rude to me. The sarcasm was obvious, but it still came
off as rude. Why is it that every post of yours I read has an air of
arrogance and condescension to it? Or am I not interpreting what you wrote
correctly - do I get a D- ? Everyone is entitled to his or her own thoughts
and opinion, and they do not deserve to be bashed for having it.
This thread started with someone who liked the idea of "sexiness" in games.
Is this so bad? These are just games we are playing. We are dealing with
fantasies - meaning many of us don't want things to be realistic. If you do
not like the way women are portrayed in some games - well, that is your
right. I have no problem with you voicing your opinions here or to the
publishers. But do you need to put others down to do it? Why do you insist
on referring to anyone who likes a scantily clad women in their games as
immature little boys who never get laid (no this is not a direct quote - but
close enough)?
If you find that your choices in computer game titles are limited because of
the way women are portrayed, then that is probably your own fault. Why can't
you play a male role if you don't like the women? I think you mentioned
something about woman characters not being able to use the best armor or
weapons. The reason for that could be that in general, men are stronger than
women (but not always, of course). I actually can't remember playing a game
that had this limitation, but I don't see why it is such a problem if that
limitation exists. I assume that a lack of strength might be made up for in
other ways (compassion, intelligence, stealth, . . . who knows?). I play
many games; sometimes I choose a male, and sometimes I choose a female. Just
because I am a guy does not mean that I will only choose a male lead
character. Nor will I choose a woman just because she is "sexy." But so what
if I did? That's my right to do so. Anyway, I don't see why you can't play a
male if you are unhappy with the female choices.
Also, the fact that you pay just as much money for a game as someone else
does not give you the right to dictate how the characters should be. There
may be any number of things that I don't like about a particular game that
other people love. This does not give me the right to complain that they put
elements that I don't like into a game even though I had to pay full price
like everyone else! I would suggest that you read previews / reviews and
purchase your games from a place that accepts software returns (it sounds
like you already do this - the return part). If you don't wish to pay for a
product, then don't buy it. Or simply return it. But don't get angry because
the game developers included elements that you don't like even though you
paid full price for it. That doesn't make much sense. Just feel free to do
what you're apparently doing already: voice your opinion to the publishers.
I don't think anyone questions your right to do that.
Now - from reading your posts it is obvious that you are an intelligent
woman. I'm sure you understand then that I am not bashing you or your
opinions in any way. I'm merely making the point that you should consider
showing others a little more respect when you criticize them. To each his
own. Now feel free to tell me I am an immature little boy -- or go ahead and
grade my comprehension skills - or whatever. I just felt like voicing my
opinion.
Jim P.
"MsJudi" <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote in message
news:UHH+OD4R1KPqkn...@4ax.com...
MsJudi
>Sorry Ma'am! ;)
Now there's a sense of humor I can respect ;)
Judi
Led Mirage
>Let's face it, the gaming industry is ignoring a potential goldmine by
>alienating women from the gaming experience. Exactly what is the point
>of it? As my old dad would say, "that's cutting your nose of to spite
>your face." Would you, as a man, NOT buy a good game if it didn't
>contain T&A? I doubt it. What's wrong with actually expanding one's
>market share (and a few minds in the process) by taking in the
>(shocking?) reality that horny teenage boys aren't the ONLY ones who
>play computer games?
Or maybe you can take a reality check and actually see that the "other
market" is so small that it's not worth the effort.
MsJudi
wrote:
>MsJudi,
>
>I'm just curious why you need to personally attack anyone who has an opinion
>which differs from yours or questions something you say.
>Why do you need to
>issue grades to Tom for reading comprehension?
It's possible that you hadn't been following the thread in it's
entirety... there are a lot of posts there, it's understandable... so
I'll explain why I said what I did to him.
My first post was meant to be not only slightly caustic and sardonic,
but humorous as well. Tom came flaming back with the following, and I
quote:
>"(Snipped a lot of PC drivel)
>
>What the hell RPG's do you play? Barbie Fashion Dungeon Hack?
>Just about all the RPG's I've played have females that cast
>spells and mindlessly cut apart ogres in full armor alongside the males."
I then made a mistake... Someone asked why I didn't just play
Baulder's Gate. I replied that I had and didn't like it. Tom then
asked why I didn't just play Baulder's Gate, and mistaking him for the
person who had already asked that and been answered, I shot back the
comment about reading comprehension. That was my mistake, I apologize
for it and the comment I make based on my error, and I appreciate you
pointing it out.
However, my initial impression of Tom was not a good one after his
first reply. As I've stated, my original post was meant to get people
talking about the issue of sexism in games and in the gaming
community... it was done mostly tongue-in-cheek with a real message
behind it. Tom chose to be insulting and as a result, I no longer felt
a responsibility to be polite to him, in return. THAT I don't
apologize for.
>Why is it that every post of yours I read has an air of
>arrogance and condescension to it? Or am I not interpreting what you wrote
>correctly - do I get a D- ? Everyone is entitled to his or her own thoughts
>and opinion, and they do not deserve to be bashed for having it.
I don't have a window into your mind... I don't know why you feel this
way about my posts, but my best suggestion, if they make you feel
insulted or irritated, is the almighty (and god I love 'em) killfile
;) That's not an insult, just a suggestion. The great thing about
usenet is that none of us have to suffer fools gladly and if you feel
I am one of those fools, you have recourse.
>This thread started with someone who liked the idea of "sexiness" in games.
>Is this so bad? These are just games we are playing. We are dealing with
>fantasies - meaning many of us don't want things to be realistic. If you do
>not like the way women are portrayed in some games - well, that is your
>right. I have no problem with you voicing your opinions here or to the
>publishers. But do you need to put others down to do it? Why do you insist
>on referring to anyone who likes a scantily clad women in their games as
>immature little boys who never get laid (no this is not a direct quote - but
>close enough)?
Maybe because that's the way I feel. How's that for un-PC? ;) I find
it hard to respect anyone who trivialities women, or objectifies them.
I find *that* a "put down" to me and my gender, and when I'm faced
with it, then Katy bar the door, the fight's on. Yep, it's just a
game... that happens to cost anywhere between 45-75 dollars I've
worked hard to earn. Yep, it's just fantasy... a fantasy about women
being weaker and slower and less capable. Have all the fantasies about
women you like, but why support perpetuating an outdated belief in a
popular medium? What good does it do anyone?
>If you find that your choices in computer game titles are limited because of
>the way women are portrayed, then that is probably your own fault. Why can't
>you play a male role if you don't like the women?
Why should I have to? Why can't programmers write strong women? Why
should I just be a sheep and say, "well, I don't like it but *ladylike
sigh*, what can I do?"
>I think you mentioned
>something about woman characters not being able to use the best armor or
>weapons. The reason for that could be that in general, men are stronger than
>women (but not always, of course).
And here's the crux of it. Where in the world did you ever get such an
idea? Could it be that others before you have perpetuated an outdated
belief?
>I actually can't remember playing a game
>that had this limitation, but I don't see why it is such a problem if that
>limitation exists.
No, obviously you don't. I, and others, do. Limiting someone because
of their gender IS a problem to those you're trying to limit, and
closing your eyes to it doesn't make it a non-issue. What it *does* do
is make the fight to change things that much harder.
> Anyway, I don't see why you can't play a
>male if you are unhappy with the female choices.
Again, I ask: why should I be forced to?
>Also, the fact that you pay just as much money for a game as someone else
>does not give you the right to dictate how the characters should be.
Oh yeah, it does. It gives me the right, it gives you the right, it
gives every single one of us the right to demand that games be made to
OUR specifications. WE pay for them. WE play them. Without us, the
gaming industry might as well make widgets. Are you going to tell me
that paying taxes doesn't give us the right to choose our own
government? Or that needing health care doesn't give us the right to
receive quality health care? Once again, you seem to be saying that
you'd prefer it if we closed our eyes... don't rock the boat, we don't
have the right to do that. Bull.
>There
>may be any number of things that I don't like about a particular game that
>other people love. This does not give me the right to complain that they put
>elements that I don't like into a game even though I had to pay full price
>like everyone else!
Once again, yes it most certainly does. Let's take an example to the
extreme and see if maybe we can clear up this "we don't have the
right" stuff. Say you buy a game, load it on to your machine, run it
and are given the following message: "Everyone named Jim P. can only
play this game on Tuesdays between 3 and 4 pm. Trying to run this game
at any other time will cause the game to close and your machine to
reboot." Think you'd complain then? Think you'd have the right to GET
what you PAID for?
>I would suggest that you read previews / reviews and
>purchase your games from a place that accepts software returns (it sounds
>like you already do this - the return part). If you don't wish to pay for a
>product, then don't buy it. Or simply return it.
All very reasonable and logical... except that I *enjoy* playing
quality computer games. I shouldn't have to curtail that hobby simply
because one particular game company or another employs programmers who
think women are weak and that if we don't like it we should just shut
the hell up about it.
>But don't get angry because
>the game developers included elements that you don't like even though you
>paid full price for it.
Why not? Shouldn't I get angry if Oscar Meyer put rat tails in hotdogs
that I purchase and eat? We are not being given a privilege by
shelling out our money on a product. WE are the consumers, and you bet
your butt we have rights.
>That doesn't make much sense. Just feel free to do
>what you're apparently doing already: voice your opinion to the publishers.
>I don't think anyone questions your right to do that.
You just did.
>Now - from reading your posts it is obvious that you are an intelligent
>woman. I'm sure you understand then that I am not bashing you or your
>opinions in any way.
I do understand that.
>I'm merely making the point that you should consider
>showing others a little more respect when you criticize them.
I give respect when I receive it. Doesn't everyone?
Judi
MsJudi
wrote:
>Or maybe you can take a reality check and actually see that the "other
>market" is so small that it's not worth the effort.
Or maybe you should take a reality check and see that the "other
market" is so small *because* it has always been believed to be "not
worth it".
Judi
xusan
taking offense. I realise that there aren't many games around that are
like you describe - maybe Fallout? However, please don't try to deny
other people the right to enjoy _their fantasy_ CRPG's. It may be PC
to do so, but it goes against my standards to impose my views and
standards over others. (I don't like censorship among adults, with
the exception of protecting children and animals).
MsJudi <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:22:05 -0500, "Tom Meyer" <jke...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>(Snipped a lot of PC drivel)
>
>I'll type this slowly, so you'll understand before you spout off
>again.
>
>Exactly how is it "PC" for a woman (namely, me) to stand up and say to
>game programmers, marketers and sexist gamers that women can and
>should be taken seriously? Isn't it a bit more like fighting for my
>right to see the money I invest in CRPG companies (by purchasing their
>products) go into programming sexist-free environments, and not the
>least bit like PC-ism?
>
>Frankly, the old "PC sucks just because it does" argument has grown
>tired. It has become the refuge of those who need to invalidate an
>argument simply because they can't come up with a reasoned and
>sensible counter-point. Scream, "ugh, how PC", roll your eyes as if
>you've just stated a profundity, and others of the same ilk will thump
>you on the back and give you attaboys, congratulating you on your
>wisdom and insight.
>
>Feh.
>
>Though you may not believe this, when I buy a game off the shelf I pay
>the same amount as you do to buy the same game. That gives me the same
>right as anyone to query our favorite programmers as to why my
>character is wearing a tu-tu while my husband's character gets a
>bitchin' breastplate and steel greaves.
>
>To their credit, 3DO seems to balance their characters, at least in
>the games I've played. Others need to follow suit or watch their
>revenue drop off. Face it boys, we have money... and we spend it on
>more than floor cleaners and manicures.
xusan
>prince in distress?
Sounds a bit like rescuing Xan in Baldurs Gate.
Kazoo King
"The T Stands for Smooth" <smo...@home.com> wrote:
>
>"Olaf" <ol...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:5E0395C7AF4A5A8C.8CEE3139...@lp.airne
ws.net...
>> Whats wrong with females in CRPGs being scantily clad?
>
>Because it makes no sense.
And people running around shooting fireballs out of their fingers
does? :) This is a fantasy world, with fantasy girls, made for
fantasising boys. It makes huge economic sense.
Not to mention it keeps my attention on the game, as opposed to
thinking about real-life girls with whom I have no chance with.
Or evil, er, even my girlfriend (who I'd take over Lara any day
thankyou very much). Basicly, my mind drifts into another
space and time when it's not stimulated. If a plot involves a
cute female wearing very little clothing I'm much more likely to
follow it and appreciate it.
Did anyone ever see a Mortal Kombat style game on the Amiga
called Capital Punishment or something like that? There was a
chick called Demona who wore a red full body and head leotard,
highheels and a whip. Oh, I almost forgot, her leotard had no
chest.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Christoph Nahr
>marketing (ever seen the scrolling ads
>for Majesty? "Your kingdom awaits, Sire!")
The game's fiction as outlined in the manual casts you in the role of
a male monarch. For the record, there are many female characters in
the game that look exactly like you want them, fully clad and
reasonably proportioned.
--
Chris Nahr (christo...@uumail.xxde, remove xx to reply by e-mail)
Please reply either on Usenet or by e-mail but not both!
Visit http://uuhome.de/christoph.nahr/ for Might & Magic information
and game projects with source code for download: Star Chess & Hexkit
Gordon Lipford
(very funny snip)
> So, if you want to make game marketer's dreams come true, keep
> coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
> them. When you're ready to really PLAY, come see me... I wear sensible
> shoes, carry my own broadsword and I'm having a really bad day.
Thanks. That was great - I'm forwarding it to my wife (and no, I'm
hardly a neanderthal - my wife gets plenty of help, but she'll still
find this hilarious).
Cheers,
Gordon
Christoph Nahr
>I have, but I will never buy Ultima IX (not a great loss from what I have
>read in this newsgroup) or Planetscape Torment which otherwise sounds like
>the kind a game I would enjoy, but I do not buy games, that forces me to
>play as a male character.
>That for me is the real sexism.
Then I guess you think novels with male lead characters are sexist
too, and you refuse to read them...
Cay
news:38fe825...@news.remarq.com...
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:33:46 -0700, "Aslog" <d...@azstarnet.com> wrote in
> message <sfsu4j...@corp.supernews.com>:
>
> > have, but I will never buy Ultima IX (not a great loss from what I have
> >read in this newsgroup) or Planetscape Torment which otherwise sounds
like
> >the kind a game I would enjoy, but I do not buy games, that forces me to
> >play as a male character.
> >That for me is the real sexism.
>
>
> Due to the highly specific plot-oriented nature of the game, allowing a
> female character would force a significant rewrite of the script. Unlike
> other RPGs such as Fallout, Ultima, and Might&Magic, PS:T is written
> such that it would be impossible to allow a drop-in cookie-cutter
> generic player character of any race and/or sex.
>
> It *may* have been possible to allow a female character, but it would
> have required a significantly different second plot to replace the
> original. Interactions and dialogue with NPCs would have had to be
> rewritten, and TNO's history would have had to be redone (with regard to
> Ravel and Deionarra). For example, cutting out the Deionarra memory
> stone sequence would have been a great loss.
>
> Given that the text in the game totalled about 1,000,000 words
> (according to lead designer Chris Avellone), such a rewrite to
> accomodate the plot changes would have been prohibitively difficult.
>
> The decision to limit PS:T's choice of player character allowed for a
> deeper, more intimate plot than would have otherwise been possible.
Well stated. I think this is a good example of the influence of market
share. The game makers couldn't allow the players to make their own
character because the story and the writing are higly detailed and
TNO-specific. So being in a situation where they had to create one pre-made
PC character for everyone to use, they created TNO -- a male character that
would appeal to the largest market share. It goes without saying that even
though we all have to pay (approximately) the same price for the game, some
of us will get more utility out of it than others will. Unfortunately,
female players who want to role-play a female character will get the least
utility out of it.
But I don't feel that this is sexism (n1. attitudes and institutions, often
unconscious, that judge human worth on the grounds of gender or sex roles;
n2. prejudice or discrimination, usu. against women, based on their gender)
on the part of game makers. Rather, I think it is good business sense based
on market share which happens to be a function of gender.
Also I don't feel that this only affects female players. Even as a male
player I was turned off by PST the moment the character generation screen
appeared and I couldn't choose a character other than TNO. I normally
role-play charming, intelligent and witty characters (usually mages or
paladins), and there was no way on Earth that I could imagine this *goon*
being any of those things. I'm glad that I gave the game a chance because
PST turned out to be the best RPG I've ever played. As far as dialogue and
game mechanics are concerned, TNO is the most realistic "charming,
intelligent and witty" character that I've ever role-played. These
qualities are evident in the game, and make a real impact on game-play. But
as far as appearance goes *Forget it -- he's a goon!*, and that's how this
whole thread started isn't it? ...with appearances.
-Cay
Cay
>
> So, if you want to make game marketer's dreams come true, keep
> coughing up for games with "sexy", weaker ladies prancing around in
> them. When you're ready to really PLAY, come see me... I wear sensible
> shoes, carry my own broadsword and I'm having a really bad day.
MsJudi,
I'm asking this ignorantly not rhetorically, but what RPGs have you played
in which you weren't satisified with the appearance or functionality of your
female party members? I have only played AD&D-based crpgs, and haven't
experienced this rampant sexism that you speak of.
While I have the floor, I'd like to make another comment about this thread.
It seems like there are two different arguments going on here, but the
distinction often gets blurred:
(1) The first argument, which is what the content of TKeTVK's initial
post dealt with, is sexiness/sexism in the *appearance* of games. This
means the appearance of PCs, NPCs, extras, game art, etc. He wasn't talking
the functionality of female characters in the game, just their appearance.
I guess this is the whole "chainmail bikini" issue, and there is probably
enough evidence in RPGs out there to support an argument for sexism based on
appearance.
(2) The second argument, which I think is distinct from the first,
regards the *functionality* of female characters in RPGs. I have yet to
play a crpg in which I felt that a female character was at a functional
disadvantage to her male counterparts. However, we seem to be arguing this
point. My question is how? What evidence is there. Since I am ignorant of
any evidence, I would like someone to give me some examples.
Thanks,
Cay
LOTcyclops
>right to see the money I invest in CRPG >companies (by purchasing their
>products) go into programming sexist-free >environments, and not the
>least bit like PC-ism?
registrations from my earlier games, which very explicitly represent the women
characters as on equal par with the men. I challenge you to play MadMan here:
http://hometown.aol.com/lotcyclops/madpage.html
and go in as a woman character. See if you find any instance where the woman
is treated less than a man, less than noble!
Its one thing to complain about games that treat women as sexist objects,
quite another to NOT be supportive of those games that don't!
Thou must put thy money where thy mouth is, thus spaketh Dr. Dungeon.
+Five-Clawed Dragon UDIC Dr. Dungeon, In The Castle of The Mach Gryphon+
-----== The last word in shareware rpg's will soon be here! ==----
--== Ultizurk IV: Lord of the Cyclops ==--
L.J. Wischik
>This thread started with someone who liked the idea of "sexiness" in games.
>Is this so bad? These are just games we are playing. We are dealing with
>fantasies - meaning many of us don't want things to be realistic.
I don't think this clear, clinical divide you put between "playing fantasy
games" and "real life" really exists. I'm certain that someone exposed and
involved in a computer game in which the women are scantily clad with
large breasts will walk down the street and look in the same way at women.
And at their female friends. That's wrong.
There was a widely used electioneering quote here in the UK a few years
ago. "Tony Blair: Tough On Crime, Tough On The Causes Of Crime". Of
course, the causes and effects are bound up in a circle, and the same
approach should be used for sexism.
--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu
Geiss
<D7H+ONV5eH4qfOk2ux=yu+i...@4ax.com>:
What type of game would you reccommend, then? Are you stating that
games like Grim Fandango aren't conducive to feminine interests?
Games are just like any other industry. If something is popular,
others will imitate. Why don't you tell all your friends, hell,
maybe even some women friends, to go out and buy non-sexist games?
The general perception I get is that women simply aren't that
interested in games. Of course there are always exceptions, you,
and some girl gamers that I know. But most seem to be turned off
by the technical aspect of playing games. Perhaps it's the
association with geekiness that turns them off. But as long as
girls aren't interested in any form of game more complicated than
Super Mario Brothers, I doubt the industry is going to experience
a paradigm shift.
--
Geiss
[40%] Crap Artist Extraordinaire
[25%] Web Stylist
[10%] Wired God Disciple
[25%] Jung Groupie
Use only as directed! Do not exceed recommended dosage!
IE5 Whore Website: http://members.home.com/ajyi
Kevin McGuire
: On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:33:46 -0700, "Aslog" <d...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
: >I have, but I will never buy Ultima IX (not a great loss from what I have
: >read in this newsgroup) or Planetscape Torment which otherwise sounds like
: >the kind a game I would enjoy, but I do not buy games, that forces me to
: >play as a male character.
: >That for me is the real sexism.
: Then I guess you think novels with male lead characters are sexist
: too, and you refuse to read them...
The thing is, computer and video games have a very very long history of
having male leads, and females represented as objects to be rescued. Who
can blame someone for being fed up with that?
Planescape is the best RPG I've ever played, and taken as just one game,
the fact that it has a male lead shouldn't be a big deal. However, seen
as the latest in a long line of computer games that only allow a male
lead, I can see how someone would be annoyed enough not to play it.
--
Kevin McGuire
University of Pennsylvania
http://www.theenergyco-op.com/ <-- 100% Green Electricity in PA!
Deborah Gray
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:41:08 -0500, MsJudi <mc...@mastnet.net> wrote:
>
> >Let's face it, the gaming industry is ignoring a potential goldmine by
> >alienating women from the gaming experience. Exactly what is the point
> >of it? As my old dad would say, "that's cutting your nose of to spite
> >your face." Would you, as a man, NOT buy a good game if it didn't
> >contain T&A? I doubt it. What's wrong with actually expanding one's
> >market share (and a few minds in the process) by taking in the
> >(shocking?) reality that horny teenage boys aren't the ONLY ones who
> >play computer games?
>
> Or maybe you can take a reality check and actually see that the "other
> market" is so small that it's not worth the effort.
Oh, really? I'm a woman who has a hell of a lot more disposable income than
any teenage boy, and I buy about four games a month, on top of playing two
online games. Just because I'm not as vocal as a teenage boy doesn't mean
I'm not here.
I'll bet the makers of the Sims and Roller Coaster Tycoon are pretty happy
that they took the "other market" into account.
- Deborah