(no subject given)
Michael Doelle
>Now the increasing narcosis you can deal with. <
No, you can't.. Please don't post any more "Gilliamisms" here. Do that on
techdiver, where you seem to be a major player on the comedy circuit at the
moment.
But don't continue telling divers that "narcosis" can be dealt with.
Narcosis is one thing that really scares me, as it makes me potentionally
incompetent when it may really count. If you don't know that, or don't know
when narcosis affects you, you just don't know the symptoms well enough.
michael, delray beach
Wrolf Courtney
the range where it is a possibility.
Yes, of course you should be concerned about inert gas narcosis. But in
my experience, with experienced divers, especially experienced deep air
divers, arguing that they should not go to 187 fsw or 218 fsw on account
of narcosis is a losing proposition. Given all the wealth of
techniques, and especially if the diver consciously chooses to accept a
level of objective risk, I have never been able to dissuade an
experienced diver.
But once I learned about oxygen toxicity at 1.4 ATA (187fsw) and 1.6 ATA
(218 fsw), back in the early '90s, from Internet resources like
rec.scuba, scuba-l, and first and foremost techdiver; plus from books
like Mount and Gilliam's Mixed Gas Diving, things were very different.
When people twitched out on a wreck like the U-Who, we had a clear
explanation.
And I had a clear message for my friends. Those narcosis techniques
(overlearning skills, flick a number to your buddy who responds with the
number plus one, monitoring your personal narcosis symptoms - mine is
tunnel or fishbowl vision) mean NOTHING for oxtox.
You just twitch out. No warning. VENTID comes too late, if at all.
It seemed to be an effective argument, I think in part because I did not
contradict what they and I knew full well.
BTW, how long have you been doing this? Your name is not familiar to
me. I see you are on Compu$erve, but I do not recall you from the early
1990s, back when I was active on the Compuserve SCUBA forum.
Is that still going strong? Are there any archives, especially ones
that I could access?
--
Wrolf
Wrolf's Wreck: http://www.concentric.net/~Wrolf
Christian Gerzner
> Wrolf fely like saying
>
> >Now the increasing narcosis you can deal with. <
>
> No, you can't.. Please don't post any more "Gilliamisms" here. Do that on
> techdiver, where you seem to be a major player on the comedy circuit at the
> moment.
>
> But don't continue telling divers that "narcosis" can be dealt with.
> Narcosis is one thing that really scares me, as it makes me potentionally
> incompetent when it may really count. If you don't know that, or don't know
> when narcosis affects you, you just don't know the symptoms well enough.
I definitely have to agree with Michael here and I have an example to
share:
I consider myself reasonably competent, read Narcosis tolerant, at the
depths I generally dive to. But then I don't usually work at these
depths, unless you call a camera "work". :-7
Occasionally the local fishos ask me to retrive a "hung" anchor (these
are stainless steel anchors, difficult to make and extremely expensive)
and this happened to me one time about 5 years ago. So I went down with
a buddy who had strict instructions simply to watch out for me. The
depth was 37 metres (close to 123ft for the metrically challenged), not
a particularly *deep* dive by the standards that I am used to. I had a
crowbar with me, a big one, and with this I proceeded to lever the
anchor out of the crack it had got jammed in. I succeeded and commenced
swimming towards the anchor line with the crowbar. At this point I
*REALLY AND TRULY FELT THAT THIS WAS NOTHING BUT A DREAM, THAT I DIDN'T
REALLY NEED A REGULATOR IN MY MOUTH* and I really and truly would have
probably taken it out if it weren't for the fact that one hand was on
the anchor chain and the other was holding the crowbar. Fortunately this
"euphoria" passed as quickly as it commenced and by the time I got along
the anchor chain to the anchor rope I was capable of doing the half
hitches to secure the crowbar to the rope.
This was a ///VERY/// sobering experience for what was by now a pretty
frightened diver.
Of course the narcosis "hit" was exacerbated by the fact that I had been
working a lot harder than normal.
Cheers, I hope that this is a lesson vicariously learned ONLY,
Christian
Christian Gerzner
> Wrolf fely like saying
>
> >Now the increasing narcosis you can deal with. <
>
> No, you can't.. Please don't post any more "Gilliamisms" here. Do that on
> techdiver, where you seem to be a major player on the comedy circuit at the
> moment.
>
> But don't continue telling divers that "narcosis" can be dealt with.
> Narcosis is one thing that really scares me, as it makes me potentionally
> incompetent when it may really count. If you don't know that, or don't know
> when narcosis affects you, you just don't know the symptoms well enough.
I definitely have to agree with Michael [Mika: Servus :-)] here and I
have an example to share:
I consider myself reasonably competent, read Narcosis tolerant, at the
depths I generally dive to. But then I don't usually work at these
depths, unless you call a camera "work". :-7
Occasionally the local fishos ask me to retrive a "hung" anchor (these
are stainless steel anchors, difficult to make and extremely expensive)
and this happened to me one time about 5 years ago. So I went down with
a buddy who had strict instructions simply to watch out for me. The
depth was 37 metres (close to 123ft for the metrically challenged), not
an especially deep dive by the standards that I am used to. I had a
crowbar with me, a big one, and with this I proceeded to lever the
anchor out of the crack it had got jammed in. I succeeded and commenced
swimming towards the anchor line with the crowbar.
At this point I *REALLY AND TRULY FELT THAT THIS WAS NOTHING BUT A
DREAM, THAT I DIDN'T REALLY NEED A REGULATOR IN MY MOUTH* and I really
and truly would have probably taken it out if it weren't for the fact
that one hand was on the anchor chain and the other was holding the
crowbar. Fortunately this "euphoria" passed as quickly as it commenced
and by the time I got along the anchor chain to the anchor rope I was
capable of doing the half hitches to secure the crowbar to the rope.
This was a ///VERY/// sobering experience for what was by now a pretty
frightened diver.
Of course the narcosis "hit" was exacerbated by the fact that I had been
working a lot harder than normal. I suspect that O2 was also a party in
this incident.
David Strike
(snip)
>I consider myself reasonably competent, read Narcosis tolerant, at the
>depths I generally dive to. But then I don't usually work at these
>depths, unless you call a camera "work". :-7
>
>Occasionally the local fishos ask me to retrive a "hung" anchor (these
>are stainless steel anchors, difficult to make and extremely expensive)
>and this happened to me one time about 5 years ago.
(A good story snipped and tagged on to the end)
Christian! That's a good - and salutary - tale. (But you know how I feel
about "amateurs" taking jobs away from working divers!) :-)
BTW! When are you going to confirm as definite for Coz'99?
Strike
Christian Gerzner
(lots snipped)
> Christian! That's a good - and salutary - tale.
Thanks Strike, and its one I tell often, in order to wake the odd person
up to the dangers of this.
To emphasise what I said, I cannot REMOTELY remember another incident
like it. And because I make this point I am (again, as you) tagging it
to the end.
> (But you know how I feel
> about "amateurs" taking jobs away from working divers!) :-)
Yes, I agree here too, but if I/we don't do it, it simply doesn't get
done, they (a) can't afford it, (b) wouldn't know where to start to get
a professional and (c) it wouldn't occur to them (it would also be more
expensive than the anchor which they laboriously manufactured for
themselves [if I remember, they refer to it as a "bullet" or "torpedo"
anchor]. I, and the Terrigal Underwater Group, "live" with these guys,
they help us and we, as best we can, help them.
> BTW! When are you going to confirm as definite for Coz'99?
I'm not at home and so I can't produce the appropriate FUC. :-)
Therefore: AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
You can take that to read "dunno". :-7
Cheers,
Christian
I wrote:
> Occasionally the local fishos ask me to retrive a "hung" anchor (these
> are stainless steel anchors, difficult to make and extremely expensive)
> and this happened to me one time about 5 years ago. So I went down with
John Nitrox
>
>I consider myself reasonably competent, read Narcosis tolerant, at the
>depths I generally dive to. But then I don't usually work at these
>depths, unless you call a camera "work". :-7
>
>...I *REALLY AND TRULY FELT... THAT I DIDN'T
>REALLY NEED A REGULATOR IN MY MOUTH*
While I don't dive to the depths that Christian does, I still manage
to get intoxicated and lose my common sense. In fact, I have had the very
same thought -- that I didn't really need a regulator. In a more sober
enthusiasm for staying alive I've found two subjective warning signals that
I'm getting narked. They are: One, the air tastes sweet on my tongue.
This seems to be an uncommon phenomenon because I've asked two tech divers
about it and neither of them had ever noticed any sensation of sweetness at
depth. Two, while I continue to monitor my gauges, it becomes difficult
to bracket my camera shots, or I seem to fail to bracket them when I should.
I've never tried mathematics underwater, but I'm interested in
techniques other people use to judge their intellectual impairment while
they are impaired.
DPTNST,
John
Kenneth A. Smith
> I've never tried mathematics underwater, but I'm interested in
> techniques other people use to judge their intellectual impairment while
> they are impaired.
I find the narrowing of my vision (loss of peripheral vision) as one of
my indicators that narcosis is begining to take hold........this is
combined with a decreased visibility or depth of field....where focus is
affected....
I have also noticed an increased concern with being able to read my
computer (digital) as my eyes start to fuzz....
Ken
Krazy Kiwi
>Occasionally the local fishos ask me to retrive a hung anchor..SNIP
>I had a crowbar with me, a big one, & with this I proceeded to lever
>the anchor out of the crack it had got jammed in. I succeeded and
>commenced swimming towards the anchor line with the crowbar.
>At this point I *REALLY AND TRULY FELT THAT THIS WAS NOTHING BUT A
Well I have to fess up. On my deepest wreck dive, 60 metres at Madang,
Papua New Guinea, I experienced quite a strange, but pleasant sensation.
It felt like the buzz you get from the drugs the dentist gives you before
he puts you to sleep when you are having wisdom teeth removed though I was
aware of what was happening around me. Things seemed to be buzzing way off
in the distance .. everything felt warm & cosy.
I signalled to my dive buddy that I was feeling a bit odd & was going to
pop up higher to buddy up with the other divers who were not doing a
penetration. Back up 5 metres and the feeling went away just as fast as it
had come. My buddy at the time was going in to penetrate the wreck so all
those waiting to ensure they exited out safely hovered higher above the
wreck, following their bubbles along as they did a quick tour through the
wreck with the DM.
This is, thankfully, the one & only incidence I have personally
experienced. I have dived at Truk Lagoon (Guam) where both my buddy & I had
to help a DM extract a seriously NARKED guy who wanted to keep on going
deeper beyond the wreck we were diving. Only a punch in the face stopped
him from fighting us. This was quite scary as the guy was so aggressive and
having a build like what I would call an *army gorilla* in size, shape &
fitness it felt like it took us ages to subdue him. Something I never want
to experience again.
Viv
*People whose main concern is their own happiness seldom find it*
Ray Jones
Ray here in Pensacola
Bob first off I think we have a common friend in Kansas City a Mr. Mark
Mischler.
He speaks very highly of you.
Any way about being narced. I've made almost 3000 dives with probably about
10% of those being deeper than 130 with several 200+ foot dives in these.
There has been only one time that I felt narced and strangley it was in 127 of
water.
It was in January. Bob I'm very hot natured. I start using just a dive skin
here in early April when the water is usually around 64 to 66 degrees. The
cold water just doesn't affect me like it does most people.
Tjis time however I reached over the side (in January mind you) and felt the
water and I thought "thats not to cold" so I dove in only a farmer john.
When I got to the bottom there was a tire pile with trigger fish everywhere of
which I was trying to shoot. The tire pile is in two parts I remember and I
couln't figure out how to get to the other part. I could see it and then I
would "blink" and then it would be about 30ft away from me and then it seemed
I would "blink" again and it would be 10 foot away from me. Anyway I usually
look into old tires after shovelnose lobster but this day I couldn't figure
out how.
OK everybody I know I'm opening myself up here but I just about only dive solo
and have done so for years. Only when I was back on the boat did it dawn on me
that I was narced.
From that I learned that if you do anything different(such as no top on in
cold water) or when I make any deep dive(past 175) When I hit 100 feet I start
doing SIMPLE multpications. If I can't do simple math then I know I'm getting
narced. But you know it's never happened again to me.
Well anyway I thought you would like that input.
Ray
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
>
>Ray here in Pensacola
>
>Bob first off I think we have a common friend in Kansas City a Mr. Mark
>Mischler. He speaks very highly of you.
Thank you both. The first time (multiple dives on a trip) I dived with
Mark was in Coz in 1997, with Jeff Kell! As luck would have it, his
first Punta Sur dive turned into a Devil's brew and he probably thought
he was narked because the world was whirling around, but he wasn't. :)
The current was REALLY whirling around in random directions. :-)
The second time was 3 months ago when he collected his two-tank prize for
being the winner of a Quiz I gave in Scuba-L. Mark is a scholar,
gentleman, and a damned good diver. He should unlurk more often.
Mark was on scuba-L record (he posted it himself) about having done
some deep bounces (meaning > 150 fsw) with me.
BTW, why aren't you two on the Coz99NEDfest bandwagon yet? Go sign
up with Strike NOW! We may do a day on a "small bouncing boat"
which may take new meaning of the "bouncing boat" part. :-)
>Any way about being narced. I've made almost 3000 dives with probably about
>10% of those being deeper than 130 with several 200+ foot dives in these.
>There has been only one time that I felt narced and strangley it was in
127 of
>water.
Your overall experience on narcosis sounds similar to mine, though your
profiles (from what you posted before <g>) put mine in the pre-kiddy room
class (short no deco bounces) compared to your heavy deco ones! But I am
not at all surprised at the 127 part, as most experienced divers with deep
exposures realize the dependence on many factors, for the same person.
>It was in January. Bob I'm very hot natured. I start using just a dive skin
>here in early April when the water is usually around 64 to 66 degrees. The
>cold water just doesn't affect me like it does most people.
80 or below is COLD water diving to me, now. I am a fully certified Warm
Water Wimp! 64 - 66? That might as well be "freezing"! :-) I might add
that I've never done a bounce > 100 fsw at that temp range or below.
However, I did get my Ice Diver cert in 1990 in a 1/4 " wetsuit. :-)
<Incident of narcosis impairment snipped.>
>Only when I was back on the boat did it dawn on me that I was narced.
Excellent story to remind readers of the unpredictability of narcosis
as a function of many physiological factors.
>From that I learned that if you do anything different(such as no top on in
>cold water) or when I make any deep dive(past 175) When I hit 100 feet I
start
>doing SIMPLE multpications. If I can't do simple math then I know I'm getting
>narced. But you know it's never happened again to me.
That doesn't work for me. :-) I can do complicated mathematics at depth.
Besides, if one is narked, how would one KNOW whether one can do simple
math or not -- s/he might think all answers are right, even if they aren't!
>Well anyway I thought you would like that input.
>
>Ray
Thanks. I think a couple of other posters talked about similar exercises.
If it appears to work for you, great! Other may want to try it. I stay
with my awareness of symptoms (for my mild type of bounces) and the mental
preparation to act if they appear. As they say, "don't fix it if it
ain't broke". My ain't broke yet, and hope it never will.
-- Bob.
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
>
>Well I have to fess up. On my deepest wreck dive, 60 metres at Madang,
>Papua New Guinea, I experienced quite a strange, but pleasant sensation.
>
> Back up 5 metres and the feeling went away just as fast as it had come.
This is the ONE SINGLE fact that has been said time
and again that is of note to act against the onset of
"severe impairment" due to narcosis.
ASCEND 5 or 10 meters as necessary, IMMEDIATELY, as soon as one
recognizes any symptom of the onset.
I have been told that by those who are vastly more experienced than
me and who have dived considerably deeper than me; and I've been
told that by those who are considerably less experienced than me;
and all in between. They ALL say, upon ascending to shallower depths,
(the narcosis) "feeling went away just as fast as it had come."
None of those who said that waited too long before acting! I don't
know what happens if one waited too long. PROBABLY it would result
in some out of control anecdotes as reported in this thread; or it
COULD have been the cause of other acts that resulted in many of
the "unexplained" fatalities.
Jeff Kell dived with me many times in Coz, and I recall at least two
incidents when he said he was noticeably narked, but a return to
shallower depths, by as little as 10-15 ft, brought him back to his
normal perception. One time was on his first trip there, in 1994,
when he was relatively inexperienced, and never dived deep. He said
that he was narked between 130 and 140 fsw, when Pedro (DM) was
leading the two of us in search of the Alexandria Wall (a name Pedro
made up, we learned years later <G>). The other incident was years
later when Jeff went to about 190 fsw. Perhaps Jeff should describe
those incidents of narcosis recovery by going shallow(er).
As I said, I don't have any first hand experience of a noticeable
"severe impairment" of the narcosis type to report.
-- Bob.
Christian Gerzner
[lotsa snips of what I wrote - thankfully :-)]
> >...I *REALLY AND TRULY FELT... THAT I DIDN'T
> >REALLY NEED A REGULATOR IN MY MOUTH*
>
> While I don't dive to the depths that Christian does, I still manage
> to get intoxicated and lose my common sense. In fact, I have had the very
> same thought -- that I didn't really need a regulator. In a more sober
> enthusiasm for staying alive I've found two subjective warning signals that
> I'm getting narked. They are: One, the air tastes sweet on my tongue.
> This seems to be an uncommon phenomenon because I've asked two tech divers
> about it and neither of them had ever noticed any sensation of sweetness at
> depth. Two, while I continue to monitor my gauges, it becomes difficult
> to bracket my camera shots, or I seem to fail to bracket them when I should.
>
> I've never tried mathematics underwater, but I'm interested in
> techniques other people use to judge their intellectual impairment while
> they are impaired.
Some may remember that I am a member of the Terrigal Underwater Group
(TUG), a private, FIERCELY independent, Dive Club. We own up to the
usual group of suspects: hoary old divers (like me), ex-instructors (and
hoary old divers) who nowadays simply like diving, techies (in our case
penetration standard cave divers), lots of camera toting cowboys (funny
how peers will get others into that game), "normal" divers (by whatever
definition) and newbies. I am, today, of the firm opinion that TUG
nurtures those newbies (etc) into being extremely responsible and
capable divers, without EVER getting another C Card than that ubiquitous
OW1. This is because, of course, TUG is not an "official" training
institution. As an example just a couple of years ago our current
President (5 years ago a wet-behind-the-ears newbie) went on his
honeymoon to South Australia and did a few dives at Kangaroo Island. His
wife was quietly asked whether he was in fact an Instructor. At the time
he only had his OW1. Actually all he has today is his OW1 (plus a Cave
Divers Association of Australia "Cavern" qualification). You can draw
your own conclusions as to why he has that Cavern qualification rather
than a more "conventional" one.
So what's the point to all of this? Two actually:
1) If you can find a club like TUG you're doing well, actually you're
pretty bloody lucky.
2) John asked "techniques other people use to judge their intellectual
impairment while they are impaired". Allow me to put this another way:
quite a few years ago, having thought about this somewhat, I decided on
a different technique. I pointed out to the diver about to go into
narcosis territory that I was going to ask them several questions
(embellishment, embellishment, embellishment) to ascertain their
susceptibility to the narcs. Now this, to ANY human being, is a
CHALLENGE. During the dive, whenever I looked to check on the diver
(very often) I would make a particular emphasis of it (swim right up, in
your face, etc) but I never actually asked them a question, made them do
a task (unless they were affecting the dive plan). I point out that
usually if I am "holding hands" with a newbie or "diver I am looking
after", I try to do it just as unobtrusively as possible.
Back on the surface they would, depending on temperament, storm up to
me, demand, ask, even ask mildly, why I had never asked them anything.
To which I would reply (words to the effect of and depending on the
circumstance):"well, were you narked?!" Of course they weren't (well,
sort of) and promptly (well, usually) realised that they were really
REQUIRED to be that aware in that type of circumstance.
Now I KNOW that this is a generalisation, that there are going to be
people who get narked at the drop of a hat. I've known many. But the
technique really does work (where an individual is *potentially* capable
of absorbing a nitrogen narcosis loading with reasonable success) and,
IMO, has merit.
I hasten to add that I do not think any of this as *MY* technique, nor
of course should it be the ONLY technique. I'm quite sure that it has
been thought of, and employed, many times before I (and TUG) employed
it.
Comments?
Cheers,
Christian
David Strike
>Well I just thought that I'd try to bring some newbie "experience" here.
>The one and only time I dived deeper than 40 m ( 48 to be precise ) I got
>narced. Oh, nothing spectacular. Only a strong sensation of euphoria.
Actually >a very pleasant feeling that can indeed be compared with the
effect of a couple >of drinks too many.
>
>Beyond the intrinsic dangers to having ones abilities impaired by narcosis, I
>think that the fact alone that narcosis can be a pleasant feeling is dangerous.
>Although only a few will admit it, there are divers who will go deep for
the >sole purpose of getting a N2 "fix".
>Just imagine what it would be if narcosis symptoms were nausea. I guess we
>would have fewer deep air divers ;-)
The feeling of euphoria is a pernicious little devil and the one that, it
seems, most people have either heard of or are familiar with - the Martini
Rule. (Each additional atmosphere of gauge pressure is the equivalent of
drinking one large, very dry martini - with, naturally, the addition of one
well marinated olive!) :-)
The pendulum swings in two directions, however, and, as has already been
stated, on different days with changed conditions and different pre-dive
preparations in terms of adequate rest and diet the result may well be the
'heebie-jeebies', an unwarranted sense of foreboding that can escalate into
panic.
While most of us tend to be aware of the importance of those PPO2's we tend
to forget - or overlook - PPN2's and the fact that narcosis is reputed to be
the major contributor to deep diving deaths.
Strike