Extra key on my clarinet
Robert
70's or early 80's, and which was already fairly old at that time. It
has an extra key between the first and second finger holes on the right
hand. Otherwise the clarinet follows the Boehm system as far as I can
tell.
Has anybody ever heard of that extra key, and know what it does?
Unfortunately I don't know what year or model my instrument is except
that it was manufactured by Buffet.
Robert
Steve Marshall
"Robert" <rmi...@fc.net> wrote
Does it have an articulated G# ?
It sounds like one of those clarinets that is a full Boehm except for the
extra lower note.
Steve M
Arthur Ness
I've never understood what an articulated G# is. Can you give us a brief
explanation? Is it a key beween the firstand secondfingers, RHand,as
described?
arthur.
"Steve Marshall" <s...@atmos.plusBlockA.com> wrote in message
news:45a2c33a$0$8726$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
Stephen Howard
It should be the F#/G# trill - which takes advantage of the full
Boehm's articulated G# mechanism.
Regards,
--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
Stephen Howard
<arthu...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Stevem
>
>I've never understood what an articulated G# is. Can you give us a brief
>explanation? Is it a key beween the firstand secondfingers, RHand,as
>described?
>
Articulation describes a mechanism whereby a typically single key is
broken into two parts that can act independently of each other.
This means that the touchpiece ( the bit you press ) of the G# key is
mechanically separated from the key cup.
In normal use, when you press the G# touchpiece the G# key cup will
open - giving you a G# ( or C#, depending on which octave you're in ).
However, when you finger an F ( or a B ) the F key has a linking
mechanism connected to the G# key cup which brings it down ( as though
you'd released the G# touchpiece ).
This allows the player to keep their finger on the G# touchpiece and
let the F link mech do the work of closing the G# key cup - so that
instead of having to move two fingers to switch between F and G#, you
need only move the F finger.
Standard Boehm clarinets have been produced with articulated G# keys -
it requires no additional touchpieces to work.
It sounds ideal, but there are some drawbacks - the additional
mechanism can make the G# feel less responsive, and there can be
problems with the G# pad sticking. This can be alleviated to some
degree by the use of a cork pad.
A significant advantage of the mechanism is that the G# tone hole is
place on the top of the bore - thus dispensing with moisture problems.
Robert
Stephen Howard wrote:
> >Has anybody ever heard of that extra key, and know what it does?
> >Unfortunately I don't know what year or model my instrument is except
> >that it was manufactured by Buffet.
> >
> It should be the F#/G# trill - which takes advantage of the full
> Boehm's articulated G# mechanism.
I want to thank everybody for their responses so far.
My clarinet does not use a full Boehm system. It doesn't have an Eb
key or a ring for the LH third finger hole.
The extra key appears to open a hole just a little below where the pad
above the RH first finger is. Therefore it looks like pressing the key
should result in a flat C/G. I'll give it a try later and see whether
I get a F#/G# trill using it.
Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the C#/G# key being
articulated. On my instrument it looks like pressing that key always
opens the appropriate hole, and that no other action has an effect on
that key. Could you explain further?
Thanks,
Robert
carlbaron
> Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the C#/G# key being
> articulated. On my instrument it looks like pressing that key always
> opens the appropriate hole, and that no other action has an effect on
> that key. Could you explain further?
http://gandalfe.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!51AA828BCB20646!888.entry
on the following, click to zoom on the picture
http://www.music123.com/Patricola-Model-CL1-Eb-Clarinet-i43549.music
Carl
Robert
Stephen Howard wrote:
> >Has anybody ever heard of that extra key, and know what it does?
> >Unfortunately I don't know what year or model my instrument is except
> >that it was manufactured by Buffet.
> >
> It should be the F#/G# trill - which takes advantage of the full
> Boehm's articulated G# mechanism.
Okay, let me see if I understand correctly.
An articulated G# key means if I finger G# and then cover any of the
holes with my right fingers, the G# cup will release without my having
to release the key.
However, that key will in a sense disable the articulation, so that the
cup will open even while my RH second finger is covering the hole?
(I apologize if my terminology here is incorrect.)
As far as I can determine, the G# key on my instrument is not
articulated, but I'll give it a try when I get home.
Robert
Arthur Ness
Thank you very much for the explanation. I'd always heard about the
articulated G#, but had never seen a clarinet with the mechanism. I once
played the Carmen Suite in an orchestra, and it would have come in handy for
that trill, G#/F#. I should have played it on the A clarinet. Instead I
had the
second clarinetist play the trill on _his_ A clarinet.
I want again to thank you for your participation on this list. We all
benefit so much from your gracious, professional advice.
Arthur.
========================
"Stephen Howard" <sees...@email.uk> wrote in message
news:e1f6q2td0r4c5sqni...@4ax.com...
Stephen Howard
>
>Stephen Howard wrote:
>
>> >Has anybody ever heard of that extra key, and know what it does?
>> >Unfortunately I don't know what year or model my instrument is except
>> >that it was manufactured by Buffet.
>> >
>> It should be the F#/G# trill - which takes advantage of the full
>> Boehm's articulated G# mechanism.
>
>Okay, let me see if I understand correctly.
>
>An articulated G# key means if I finger G# and then cover any of the
>holes with my right fingers, the G# cup will release without my having
>to release the key.
Not quite. If you finger the G# ( which opens the key ) and then cover
F or E right hand holes, the G# key cup will close....even though you
still have your finger on the G# key.
Robert
Stephen Howard wrote:
> Not quite. If you finger the G# ( which opens the key ) and then cover
> F or E right hand holes, the G# key cup will close....even though you
> still have your finger on the G# key.
Okay, I think I understand now. :-)
So it is this articulation that makes a RH key necessary to do the
F#/G# trill?
Anyway, I checked my clarinet and the G# key is not articulated.
Playing F# and then fingering that extra RH key results in a slightly
out of tune G. I wonder if this key is used for some of the notes
above high G?
Robert
Stephen Howard
>
>Stephen Howard wrote:
>
>> Not quite. If you finger the G# ( which opens the key ) and then cover
>> F or E right hand holes, the G# key cup will close....even though you
>> still have your finger on the G# key.
>
>Okay, I think I understand now. :-)
>
>So it is this articulation that makes a RH key necessary to do the
>F#/G# trill?
It's the other way round..the articulation is necessary etc.
>
>Anyway, I checked my clarinet and the G# key is not articulated.
>Playing F# and then fingering that extra RH key results in a slightly
>out of tune G. I wonder if this key is used for some of the notes
>above high G?
>
It's not an F# trill then. Not sure what it might be!
What happens when you play G and hit the key?
Steve Marshall
"Robert" <rmi...@fc.net> wrote
> My clarinet does not use a full Boehm system. It doesn't have an Eb
> key or a ring for the LH third finger hole.
>
That's what I thought. There are several instruments like this. The Selmer
Centred Tone came in a version like that. Also LeBlanc 1186. (18 keys 6
ring) The 1187 has the extra ring (18 keys, 7 rings) and the 1197 which has
19 keys and 7 rings. the Full Boehm has 20 keys and 7 rings.
(These are older models - not sure of the latest model numbers).
Steve M
Robert
Stephen Howard wrote:
> >Anyway, I checked my clarinet and the G# key is not articulated.
> >Playing F# and then fingering that extra RH key results in a slightly
> >out of tune G. I wonder if this key is used for some of the notes
> >above high G?
> >
> It's not an F# trill then. Not sure what it might be!
> What happens when you play G and hit the key?
When I play G and hit the key, the G goes slightly sharp, but it
doesn't sound like a G#. Nothing happens if I play G# and hit the key.
If I play F# and hit the key, I get the slightly sharp G, but of
course playing an F#-G trill is not a problem on a standard clarinet.
Robert
Stephen Howard
Does it do anything to F and E?
JerseySax
1) which Eb key doesn't it have? Are you referring to the key that would be
located in the left hand just below the 2nd ring that can be used to play an
Eb (lower) Bb (upper)?
2) I have a Buffet R13 from 1960. the left hand third hole down does not
have a ring. I haven't seen a Boehm system clarinet that does. Doesn't mean
there are no clarinets with a ring on the C/G hole; I just have never seen
one with a ring.
3) regarding that "extra" key. Most clarinets have a key between the 2nd and
3rd ring in the right hand. If you finger a Bb (lower) F (upper) and press
this key you get a B natural (lower) F# (upper) and can be used for trills,
chromatic runs, etc. Perhaps that's what this key does for you on your
clarinet, but I've never seen this key placed between the 1st and 2nd ring
as you describe. Do you know what model your Buffet clarinet is? Perhaps you
can supply a photo showing the extra key and the missing Eb key.
Forgive me if I sound overbearing about this subject. It's not my intent to
criticize. It's just that I've been playing clarinet since I was 14; I'm 67
now. I've never seen what you describe. I pretty much exclusively played my
Buffet, although I have seen and played other manufacturers' instruments and
they all seem to follow the description of mine. And, by the way, my Buffet
does not have an articulated G#/C#. I think Selmer introduced that sometime
in the early 1960's; not sure.
====
"Robert" <rmi...@fc.net> wrote in message
news:1168440714....@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Stephen Howard
wrote:
<snip>
>
>Forgive me if I sound overbearing about this subject. It's not my intent to
>criticize. It's just that I've been playing clarinet since I was 14; I'm 67
>now. I've never seen what you describe.
I wouldn't be at all surprised - I've seen thousands of clarinets, and
I'm still seeing instruments come in with keys in places I've never
seen them before...even some with keys extending onto the barrel.
JerseySax
I don't disagree with you. we are living in an age of gimmicks. I'm old
school. My Buffet and 2 M-VI's from the late 50's are all great instruments.
But Robert seems to indicate that his instrument looked old when he
purchased it in the 70's or 80's. I would guess it would be at least 45
years old from the information he provided. If he were to provide the serial
number, its vintage and model could possibly be determined from this web
site:
http://www.uark.edu/ua/nc/ClarinetCollections/BuffetClarinetsSerialNumber.htm
Perhaps you have other serial number web sites for Buffet that are
comprehensive. This is the only one I have found.
So, Robert, I hope you are continuing to read this thread. Your instrument
has really aroused my curiosity. Again, a photo might be helpful.
===
"Stephen Howard" <sees...@email.uk> wrote in message
news:bdorq2hs9kjnqgb1c...@4ax.com...
Rich Holmes
> 1) which Eb key doesn't it have? Are you referring to the key that would be
> located in the left hand just below the 2nd ring that can be used to play an
> Eb (lower) Bb (upper)?
I think he's referring to a low E flat key, i.e. a fifth touchpiece
for the RH little finger, like that found on most alto and bass
clarinets, playing the E flat below the treble clef.
> 2) I have a Buffet R13 from 1960. the left hand third hole down does not
> have a ring. I haven't seen a Boehm system clarinet that does. Doesn't mean
> there are no clarinets with a ring on the C/G hole; I just have never seen
> one with a ring.
Here's a photo of a full Boehm clarinet with both the low Eb key and a
rings on all the finger holes:
<http://www.musical-instrument-repair-shop.com/customerpics/clarinets/Robertsselmerparisclarinet.jpg>
- Rich Holmes
Stephen Howard
wrote:
>Stephen,
>
>I don't disagree with you. we are living in an age of gimmicks. I'm old
>school. My Buffet and 2 M-VI's from the late 50's are all great instruments.
Ah, there's very little that's new really. If anything, instruments
have got simpler with regard to keywork since the glory days of the
late 19th century - where the tendency was to engineer the instrument
so that it did all the tuning and tonal work rather than leave it to
the player.
Some of the more 'advanced' instruments had double R/H thumb keys and
dual octave vents ( a la sax ).
In other words, it's probably been done before ( like Selmer's top C#
tuning gadget on their Series III saxes...which appeared a long time
ago on the some King saxes ).
Given all that, a single extra trill key sounds almost discreet.
JerseySax
clarinet with a low Eb. I can see the group of 5 RH keys that is normally 4
keys and I can see the additional cup/pad. I guess you can learn something
new every 50 years. thanks for the enlightenment.
Are these clarinets commonly used?
=====
"Rich Holmes" <rsholme...@mailbox.syr.edu> wrote in message
news:u4zm8ht...@mep1.phy.syr.edu...
Steve Marshall
"JerseySax" <Jers...@gmail.com> wrote
> That IS interesting. In all my years I never heard of a standard soprano
> Bb clarinet with a low Eb. I can see the group of 5 RH keys that is
> normally 4 keys and I can see the additional cup/pad. I guess you can
> learn something new every 50 years. thanks for the enlightenment.
>
> Are these clarinets commonly used?
They're fairly rare. The extra length required makes them quite a bit more
expensive. It's more common to see the keywork you find on a full Boehm but
without that extra Eb.
Have you seen a basset clarinet as used on the Mozart clarinet concerto ?
Steve M
m...@rco.rosano
Holmes<rsholme...@mailbox.syr.edu> wrote:
><http://www.musical-instrument-repair-shop.com/customerpics/clarinets/Robertsselmerparisclarinet.jpg>
>
>- Rich Holmes
What is the purpose of the ring on the C/G tone hole?
Thanks,
Marco
Robert
JerseySax wrote:
> So, Robert, I hope you are continuing to read this thread. Your instrument
> has really aroused my curiosity. Again, a photo might be helpful.
I'm not sure about a serial number. The Buffet logo is pretty worn on
each part of the instrument it appears. Where would I find the serial
number?
Robert
JerseySax
clarinet. I just never knew it as a "Basset" clarinet. I'd heard of a basset
horn which is in the clarinet family but was not aware of the "A" clarinet
being termed a basset clarinet. I have found pictures of this instrument but
have never seen an actual instrument.
In my defense in being previously unaware of the above, I don't work in the
classical field, although I do listen to the classics. I work in the dance
and jazz field. I use the clarinet mostly on Dixieland bands and in
society/country club work. And I do jazz saxophone work in big bands and
small jazz combos. I also do some show band work.
=====
==
"Steve Marshall" <s...@atmos.plusBlockA.com> wrote in message
news:45ae9ec7$0$8751$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
Arthur Ness
Basset Clarinet Parts" in Performance Practice Review 10:
http://ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/cdm4/viewer.php?CISOROOT=/ppr&CISOPTR=168&CISOBOX=adelson
ajn (ahem).
================================================
"JerseySax" <Jers...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:NsidnY5y-9gxDzLY...@comcast.com...
Rich Holmes
> See Rob Adelson's article, "Reading between the (ledger) lines: Mozart's
> Basset Clarinet Parts" in Performance Practice Review 10:
>
> http://ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/cdm4/viewer.php?CISOROOT=/ppr&CISOPTR=168&CISOBOX=adelson
When I went to that URL there was no way to navigate past the first
page. This URL seems to work better:
http://ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/ppr&CISOPTR=409&REC=3
(and then click on the appropriate links on the left)
- Rich Holmes
JerseySax
Robert
JerseySax wrote:
> So, Robert, I hope you are continuing to read this thread. Your instrument
> has really aroused my curiosity. Again, a photo might be helpful.
Well, I checked all over my instrument last night and couldn't find a
serial number. I saw something that looked like a 4 but on further
investigation I think it was just wood grain.
I did find some interesting information. One of the websites I
consulted said that if a Buffet clarinet has A and G# keys that share a
post, which my clarinet does, then it is too old to be an R13. So I'm
guessing it has to date from pre-1955?
Robert
Arthur Ness
Thank you for your assistance. Yes, that site is very difficult to scroll
through. Use the left column, and title. Then the page (152). At the top
of the left column is a "GO" box. Using the "arrow" (triangle) scroll down
and "GO" with "page & text". Be sure to enlarge it
to full size (upper right box). (Other adjustments are possibl;e.) Then you
can read through the article and move from page to page. To go to the next
(or previous) page, click on the barely legible "next" or "previous" [page]
to the extreme right in the top
toolbox.
It's too bad, because Rob's is the best summary of the Mozart basset
clarinet problem available. I in particular had an interest in it, because
it uses so much of my master's thesis., which contains much original
information. Rob had my full
cooperation.
See especially page 159. I think example (a) is the proper one. The most
exciting discovery I made was the article from 1802 with a list of basset
notes, and then the important Schwencke arrangement, made obviously from
a now lost copy of the basset clarinet concerto. Pamela Weston follws
Schwencke in her full-score for Universal Editions.
I have lost contact with Rob, and do not know what he is doing. But he is a
professional basset horn and basset clarinet player, and seems to free lance
allover the country. We had a long talk when he was here for a performance
with the Boston Baroque Orchestra.
ArthurJ. Ness
(Boston).
================================================================
"Rich Holmes" <rsholme...@mailbox.syr.edu> wrote in message
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