The king of ST - Balrog vs Dhalsim
Julien B Beasley
addicts gather. There again was the master himself, the best guile in
Japan. After beating the computer with guile when everyone had given up
losing to him, I saw him get a drink and then come in to put another 50
yen coin in the machine - aaah, the hallmark of a true player.
This time, he picked Balrog. I was in luck. I always love watching him
play Balrog, because I always learn something new. So I leaned back and
got ready to watch.
There was a group of players on the other side of the HTH machine that
seemed determined to beat him. The best of those players was playing
dhalsim.
Now in the past, I've posted that my strategy vs dhalsim has been to
jump over dhalsim's slow fb's, and randomly hit the RH button early or
late to trade with limbs. If dhalsim doesn't fb, I strong low rush on
reaction any whiffed limbs he does. That strategy had worked for me in
the past, but not against the best dhalsim's I've played here. I just
kept on getting hit more than I hit, and would have to hope for a super
or tick trap to save me. But even a super doesn't help at full screen
range, and I would lose to slow fb's all day. So I was determined to
watch the master, and learn how he got around the ubiquitous slow fb.
The first thing I did was check the master's hands. How did he use his
TAPS? I've always kept the ball of my hand (the hard spot below the
base of my fingers) on the bottom 3 kick buttons, and hit the punch
buttons with my extended fingers (the fingers, not the fingertips). I
can't play very precisely this way, and always have a hard time getting
out moves when I really need them.
The master was keeping the heel of his hand on the 3 kicks, and curling
his pinky and index. His index would hit jab, while the pinky would hit
fierce. He didn't seem to have a finger assigned to strong. This way,
he was able to use his fingertips for maximal precision.
Of course, his opponent was no slouch, and quickly started the slow
yoga fires. Instead of jumping over with RH, as I do, the master jumped
straight up and hit the often neglected floating fierce. The usefulness
of this move soon became apparent - it hit dhalsim's low fierce clean
AND traded with the stand forward! Not every time, but certainly the
odds of this move hitting were much better than those of my jump RH
guessing game. The master would keep on floating over FB's and
eventually both he and sim were at very low life.
In one game, the master kept the TAP charged the entire round until
both he and dhalsim were at around 10% life. He then let loose with the
tap at one point when dhalsim was hesitating to throw a FB. The tap
flew clear across the screen hitting sim.
The sim player was able to work around the floating fierce by
concentrating on stand forward, which seemed to hit Balrog a lot more.
Unfortunately, it did a lot less damage as well :)
When the master got a knockdown, he would often follow with his trick
rush - a whiffed short rush immediately followed by jab BH. This trick
is a master level trick: it hits people who are expecting the whiffed
short rush into throw. After a landed throw, the master would often
crossunder low forward, low RH for a two hit combo. I usually do the
low forward, low strong, low rush 3 hit combo, but I think the master's
combo works from a greater range than mine and is thus more versatile.
The dhalsim team eventually won, but after considerable losses.
Anyways, congrats to them for beating the master even once :)
Julien
--
The sad fact is that my posts spark discussion. Adon vs Sagat is one
example. Me arguing with Viscant led to his real life confrontation
with Spider-Dan, which produced some interesting results. Having two
great MvC players discuss, duke it out and discuss some more, that
sounds worthwhile to me.
-James Margaris
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
James M
<j...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[clip]
That was actually an informative post, even though I didn't spark it.
By the way, when I talk about the "two great players" below I meant
Spider-Dan and Viscant, not myself. MvC is my least favorite of the vs.
games and I am a total scrub on it, and not sad to admit it either.
You are getting better though...you might fool a few of the stupider
people around here sometime if you keep it up.
But anyway, that actually was an interesting post
James M
> The sad fact is that my posts spark discussion. Adon vs Sagat is
> one
> example. Me arguing with Viscant led to his real life confrontation
> with Spider-Dan, which produced some interesting results. Having
> two
> great MvC players discuss, duke it out and discuss some more, that
> sounds worthwhile to me.
> -James Margaris
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Wenchi Liao
>both he and dhalsim were at around 10% life. He then let loose with the
>tap at one point when dhalsim was hesitating to throw a FB. The tap
>flew clear across the screen hitting sim.
Does the tap go faster/farther when it is charged longer? My
memory of the tap was fairly limited range (like a jab rush).
OTOH, I never charged it for a round, either.
WL
Ethan Hammond
>
> I hung out last weekend at the MORE arcade, where the die hard ST
> addicts gather. There again was the master himself, the best guile in
> Japan. After beating the computer with guile when everyone had given up
> losing to him, I saw him get a drink and then come in to put another 50
> yen coin in the machine - aaah, the hallmark of a true player.
Arcade machines in Japan take 100 yen coins. A 50
yen coin has a hole in the middle.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
seth j killian
>I hung out last weekend at the MORE arcade, where the die hard ST
>addicts gather. There again was the master himself, the best guile in
>Japan. After beating the computer with guile when everyone had given up
>losing to him, I saw him get a drink and then come in to put another 50
>yen coin in the machine - aaah, the hallmark of a true player.
?? Consuming beverages is "the mark"? Going back to face
the computer? Using 50 yen coins (they don't work 'round here)? :)
>Now in the past, I've posted that my strategy vs dhalsim has been to
>jump over dhalsim's slow fb's, and randomly hit the RH button early or
>late to trade with limbs. If dhalsim doesn't fb, I strong low rush on
>reaction any whiffed limbs he does. That strategy had worked for me in
>the past, but not against the best dhalsim's I've played here. I just
>kept on getting hit more than I hit, and would have to hope for a super
>or tick trap to save me.
Yeah. As I played this match more and more, just jumping over
the FBs (to trade or beat the counter) became substantially less effective.
Once a good Dhalsim gets the FB off, it's trouble for you if the plan is
"jump in". It's true you can trade with limbs on your way down- the
problem is a good Dhalsim will peg you on the way up, or at the peak,
with precisely the st.forward. This will pimp you before you get a
chance to trade.
This isn't to say I won't still jump in a fair bit. You must,
to keep Dhalsim honest about the ranges he's throwing FBs from. Plus,
I can almost always win if I get one successful jump-in. And by
"successful", I don't mean that I land a jump attack into combo,
or even I just beat cleanly the counter and land (both of those are
okay, of course, but not necessary). All I minimally need is to
jump in and get Dhalsim to *block* it. Then I get j.strong into
cr.jabx2, cr.strong, low jab rush, st.fierce, into guessing game
of another low rush, short whiff rush into throw, buffalo headbutt
(from "unretaliable" range), or TAP.
This, added to a bit of dicking around at the beginning
of a round will charge your super. If I get the super, I can win,
because it completely disables Dhalsim's FB game, putting him at
the mercy of a lot of unchallenged low rushes. The above sequence
also tends to put Dhalsim in the corner, which is very very good for
Balrog.
I'm curious though- although you mention the flying fierce
(which I do use a lot, from specific ranges), that clearly isn't
winning him any matches by itself, much less getting knockdowns.
What was his primary tool to *win*? What decided the match?
Flying fierce is just a significantly higher percentage damage
trading tool. What would he follow that up with?
Most of the Balrog v. Dhalsim fights I win (and I think it's
very close, w/slight advantage to Balrog for having to play a bit
less carefully (although you must still play smart)) involve me
losing around 50-70% of my life, while taking ~10-20% damage from
Dhalsim in trades, etc. Then I get the super, and walk all over
him, sometimes not even having to actually use the super at all-
just the threat of it seems to completely dismantle Dhalsim's
game. You don't mention anything like this, or another clever
super charging technique ala Balrog v. Chun Li. For my own part,
I'm often reduced to extremely ghetto tactics like randomly
firing off low lvl TAPs with the expectation that I'll just
get hit, but also get a healthy chunk of super (it charges
a lot).
BTW- the TAP is really important in this fight (and yes,
it travels further the longer it's charged- knowing how far it
will plow through your opponent is important for deciding what
range to fire it from. It's important to listen to the level
when it is launched- at lvl3 and above, the TAP's momentum is
sufficient not just to hit you, but to keep driving far enough
to leave Balrog in throw range after it ends (or if it hits,
you can combo off of a lvl3+ TAP). If you're expecting
Balrog to be left far away (as in a lvl1), you're just giving
him a free throw. Anyway, the TAP is key because (this is
relative to my anti-Dhalsim style, which does not include
the short whiff into throw/buff.headbutt option):
1) It charges Super. Sometimes a lot of super. Once I
have the super, I fear no Dhalsim trap. A cornered Dhalsim
vs Balrog with super is very screwed- you can expect to lose
whatever lead you've built up as Dhalsim if you find yourself
in this situaiton.
2) It trades pretty well. This means not only does it hit
limbs reasonably well (very rarely wins outright, however),
it does a load of damage. Ultimately, this fight comes down
to Balrog doing a hell of a lot more damage than Dhalsim.
If their damages were equal, it would be a massacre. The
final and significant aspect of it's "trading well" is
that after such a trade, Balrog is left in very good
position, often close enough to low rush before Dhalsim
can get a limb out to stop it, much less FB. That means
low rush into st.fierce into guessing game, all of which
means more super for you, and danger for him.
3) Finally, it mixes up the rythym of the match somewhat.
You see animation, but no attack- for a second. A stutter-step.
This isn't exactly critical, but it is overall critical that
Dhalsim be made to guess. If you're predictable, or even
fairly repetitive (at least when trying to get in), you'll
get really slaughtered. Coupled with everything else, this
is a genuine strong point.
But even a super doesn't help at full screen
>range, and I would lose to slow fb's all day. So I was determined to
>watch the master, and learn how he got around the ubiquitous slow fb.
>The first thing I did was check the master's hands. How did he use his
>TAPS?
>The master was keeping the heel of his hand on the 3 kicks, and curling
>his pinky and index. His index would hit jab, while the pinky would hit
>fierce. He didn't seem to have a finger assigned to strong. This way,
>he was able to use his fingertips for maximal precision.
Ugh. When you play cross-handed like I do, you're pretty
much screwed as far as charging TAPs and hitting punches. I almost
literally can't hold the kicks and still use the punches. I charge
by hitting 3kicks whenever I'm made to block (at all), whenever I'm
hit, or whenever I'm in the process of doing a move (like a low
rush). Then I have to decide quickly after that ends whether I
want to then use that TAP, continue charging, or just let it
dissipate (if you release the buttons when doing something else,
it doesn't come out later- it just goes away). This limits my
TAP strategy, but I'm a all over that strong button :) (Do not
play like uncle Seth if you can help it kids- it's a flat out
disadvantage. Uncle Seth blames too much Defender).
>of this move soon became apparent - it hit dhalsim's low fierce clean
>AND traded with the stand forward! Not every time, but certainly the
>odds of this move hitting were much better than those of my jump RH
>guessing game.
Yeah- but st. fierce is just always the wrong move vs. a jumping
straight up Balrog, for precisely this reason. It's only about the st.
forward/short (and forward is just as good if not better (a bit more
range and it hangs out longer, as well as doing more damage)).
The master would keep on floating over FB's and
>eventually both he and sim were at very low life.
This is the part of the story I want to hear. There's no way
he was floating fierce trading his way into a close match.
>In one game, the master kept the TAP charged the entire round until
>both he and dhalsim were at around 10% life. He then let loose with the
>tap at one point when dhalsim was hesitating to throw a FB. The tap
>flew clear across the screen hitting sim.
I could believe it. That TAP is a bit paralyzing. Although my
consideration #3 sounds a bit silly- it's legitimate.
>The sim player was able to work around the floating fierce by
>concentrating on stand forward, which seemed to hit Balrog a lot more.
>Unfortunately, it did a lot less damage as well :)
>short rush into throw. After a landed throw, the master would often
>crossunder low forward, low RH for a two hit combo. I usually do the
>low forward, low strong, low rush 3 hit combo, but I think the master's
>combo works from a greater range than mine and is thus more versatile.
I don't really see what you're talking about here. My only
guess would be that perhaps the master's combo can be done from a range
where it's less attractive for Dhalsim to try a wake-up throw reversal.
You don't want to give him the opportunity for unearned damage.
Otherwise, perhaps the low RH has some sort of special dizzy properties.
Damage on the 3hitter has to be better, and it knocks down just the same.
Finally- maybe the low RH combo leaves you in better position for him
to repeat his whiff rush into option trick? Sounds a bit mysterious.
>The dhalsim team eventually won, but after considerable losses.
>Anyways, congrats to them for beating the master even once :)
How many games are we talking here? Although I'm sure the
Dhalsim player/team was pretty awesome, the cynic in me wants to
wonder if they were very familiar with the match, as trying to
low fierce Balrog after he jumps straight up is a mistake that
you should probably make once, and then never again.
If I get some more time, I'll attempt a crummy ascii chart
of the various ranges and their respective advantages for both
Balrog and Dhalsim. It isn't at all the case that being closer
is always better for Balrog- there are a number of very specific
distinct ranges each with particular quirks. For instance-
about an inch to the left of the screen (Balrog facing right)
is much better for him than an two inches closer would be...
More later, I hope. Give us some more, Julien.
Seth Killian
Nick K. Inabnit
-Nick
Derek Daniels
wrote:
> I hung out last weekend at the MORE arcade, where the die hard ST
> addicts gather. There again was the master himself, the best guile in
> Japan. After beating the computer with guile when everyone had given up
> losing to him, I saw him get a drink and then come in to put another 50
> yen coin in the machine - aaah, the hallmark of a true player.
>
> play Balrog, because I always learn something new. So I leaned back and
> got ready to watch.
Why aren't you playing him?!?! Scared of mean old Balrogy?! Pussy.
Just bust out your dope Old Ryu and work him!!
And why haven't you videotaped him yet???
Send a perfectly good white boy to Japan and this is all we get. Sigh.
Derek
P.s. Nice post. I'm kinda curious how this master Guile player does
against Team DhalSeam and against your Balrog and or Vega. Play him!!
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Milo D. Cooper
>
> [...]
> --
> The sad fact is that my posts spark discussion. Adon vs Sagat is one
> example. Me arguing with Viscant led to his real life confrontation
> with Spider-Dan, which produced some interesting results. Having two
> great MvC players discuss, duke it out and discuss some more, that
> sounds worthwhile to me.
>
> -James Margaris
Hahahahahahahahaha!!
--
____________________________________________________
| Milo D. Cooper http://www.milos-chalkboard.net/ |
| EverQuest character modeler |
| http://www.station.sony.com/everquest/ |
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Milo D. Cooper
>> Julien B Beasley wrote:
>>
>> I hung out last weekend at the MORE arcade, where the die hard ST
>> addicts gather. There again was the master himself, the best guile in
>> Japan. After beating the computer with guile when everyone had given up
>> losing to him, I saw him get a drink and then come in to put another 50
>> yen coin in the machine - aaah, the hallmark of a true player.
>>
>> This time, he picked Balrog. I was in luck. I always love watching him
>> play Balrog, because I always learn something new. So I leaned back and
>> got ready to watch.
>
> Why aren't you playing him?!?! Scared of mean old Balrogy?! Pussy.
> Just bust out your dope Old Ryu and work him!!
>
> And why haven't you videotaped him yet???
>
> Send a perfectly good white boy to Japan and this is all we get. Sigh.
>
> Derek
> P.s. Nice post. I'm kinda curious how this master Guile player does
> against Team DhalSeam and against your Balrog and or Vega. Play him!!
Julien's posts are great -- far more valuable and fun to read
than anything that anyone else posts here, nowadays, with the
possible exception of any of a number of vs. Seth threads -- but
if I had never played these games and I read Mr. Beasley's posts,
I'd think that they had selections of about four characters each.
Lots of top tier anecdotes, and very little else (that Blanka
post was a refreshing diversion).
Is there anyone else here who's ambivalent about Julien's
(excellent) reports? It's always great to read tactical analyses
of the methods of top players, but on the other hand, I'm a
little tired of hearing how the best, or second best, or third best
character in the game is even better than I know him to be.
I'm still waiting for Julien to deliver stories of the flavor
of what happened at last year's Alpha 3 Daigo rampage. Super
Turbo is probably the best balanced of all fighting games; surely,
with all those great players where he is, someone must be able to
streak with someone like T.Hawk or Fei Long or Chun-B*tch.
I'll be glad when Bob Painter returns my PlayStation Super
Turbo that he borrowed a couple of f*cking eons ago.
Zangief104
and other Konami music games will be cool, too
Jack Lin -- Zangief104
DDR is the force..Go play!
Lion
>
> Julien B Beasley wrote:
> >
> > I hung out last weekend at the MORE arcade, where the die hard ST
> > addicts gather. There again was the master himself, the best guile in
> > Japan. After beating the computer with guile when everyone had given up
> > losing to him, I saw him get a drink and then come in to put another 50
> > yen coin in the machine - aaah, the hallmark of a true player.
>
> yen coin has a hole in the middle.
>
also arcades where you can play for 10 yens.
--
= Lion =
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion.
Let's not argue about who killed who."
LIQUID 24
>than anything that anyone else posts here, nowadays, with the
>possible exception of any of a number of vs. Seth threads -- but
>if I had never played these games and I read Mr. Beasley's posts,
>I'd think that they had selections of about four characters each.
>Lots of top tier anecdotes, and very little else (that Blanka
>post was a refreshing diversion).
> Is there anyone else here who's ambivalent about Julien's
>(excellent) reports? It's always great to read tactical analyses
>of the methods of top players, but on the other hand, I'm a
>little tired of hearing how the best, or second best, or third best
>character in the game is even better than I know him to be.
> I'm still waiting for Julien to deliver stories of the flavor
>of what happened at last year's Alpha 3 Daigo rampage. Super
>Turbo is probably the best balanced of all fighting games; surely,
>with all those great players where he is, someone must be able to
>streak with someone like T.Hawk or Fei Long or Chun-B*tch.
yeah
Julien's posts are awesome and also just happen to be the best thing I've seen
on agsf2 in the past 6 months or so . I'd love to SEE some of the stuff he's
talking about but who plays ST anymore unless it's in a tournament . Hell ,
what arcade still has a ST ???
Keep up the good work Julien , oh , and how about letting us in on these mad
Guile skills that are going on in Japan . It would be awesome to hear about
that some more .
Ted
Ethan Hammond
>
> Ethan Hammond wrote:
> >
> > Julien B Beasley wrote:
> > >
> > > I hung out last weekend at the MORE arcade, where the die hard ST
> > > addicts gather. There again was the master himself, the best guile in
> > > Japan. After beating the computer with guile when everyone had given up
> > > losing to him, I saw him get a drink and then come in to put another 50
> > > yen coin in the machine - aaah, the hallmark of a true player.
> >
> > Arcade machines in Japan take 100 yen coins. A 50
> > yen coin has a hole in the middle.
> >
> At the More arcade, one play is 50 yens for 'older' games. There are
> also arcades where you can play for 10 yens.
Thats pretty cool, I'll have to check it out some
time. All the arcades I have been to in Japan,
since I first went in 1982 have always been 100 yen.
Are you in Tokyo?
Julien B Beasley
skil...@students.uiuc.edu (seth j killian) wrote:
> ?? Consuming beverages is "the mark"? Going back to face
> the computer? Using 50 yen coins (they don't work 'round here)? :)
I meant putting another coin straight in after a long session of
kicking ass - that's the hallmark of a diehard.
> >Now in the past, I've posted that my strategy vs dhalsim has been to
> >jump over dhalsim's slow fb's, and randomly hit the RH button early
or
> >late to trade with limbs. If dhalsim doesn't fb, I strong low rush on
> >reaction any whiffed limbs he does. That strategy had worked for me
in
> >the past, but not against the best dhalsim's I've played here. I just
> >kept on getting hit more than I hit, and would have to hope for a
super
> >or tick trap to save me.
>
> Yeah. As I played this match more and more, just jumping over
> the FBs (to trade or beat the counter) became substantially less
effective.
> Once a good Dhalsim gets the FB off, it's trouble for you if the plan
is
> "jump in". It's true you can trade with limbs on your way down- the
> problem is a good Dhalsim will peg you on the way up, or at the peak,
> with precisely the st.forward. This will pimp you before you get a
> chance to trade.
Yes.
> This isn't to say I won't still jump in a fair bit. You must,
> to keep Dhalsim honest about the ranges he's throwing FBs from.
Plus,
> I can almost always win if I get one successful jump-in. And by
> "successful", I don't mean that I land a jump attack into combo,
> or even I just beat cleanly the counter and land (both of those are
> okay, of course, but not necessary). All I minimally need is to
> jump in and get Dhalsim to *block* it. Then I get j.strong into
> cr.jabx2, cr.strong, low jab rush, st.fierce, into guessing game
> of another low rush, short whiff rush into throw, buffalo headbutt
> (from "unretaliable" range), or TAP.
That's pretty good. I find I can usually do a decent amount of damage
if I jump in, but that's not usually enough for me to win.
> This, added to a bit of dicking around at the beginning
> of a round will charge your super. If I get the super, I can win,
> because it completely disables Dhalsim's FB game, putting him at
> the mercy of a lot of unchallenged low rushes. The above sequence
> also tends to put Dhalsim in the corner, which is very very good for
> Balrog.
I agree that anything less that full screen disables the fb. The
problem is that from full screen, dhalsim will just block the super.
Although a blocked super will get you into a good range, it doesn't
seem that hard for dhalsim to push you out again.
How do you use the super threat from full screen?
> I'm curious though- although you mention the flying fierce
> (which I do use a lot, from specific ranges), that clearly isn't
> winning him any matches by itself, much less getting knockdowns.
> What was his primary tool to *win*? What decided the match?
> Flying fierce is just a significantly higher percentage damage
> trading tool. What would he follow that up with?
The flying fierce trading literally was 90% of the fight. I'd never
seen a player who was so focused on simply trading. All the other
Balrog vs Dhalsim fights I had seen or played, Balrog's goal was to get
in. The master seemed content to let dhalsim take the initiative, and
just float fierce. He didn't try to get in - he just let dhalsim trade.
When they were both around 10% it seemed he would win off a "lucky"
tap, or trade, or rush.
Occasionally though, dhalsim would make a mistake and the round was
over in 5 seconds. For example, in one round he got a knockdown very
early and did whiff rush->BH, jump strong low jab x 2 cr strong whiff
rush BH (blocked), then something I don't remember which led to a
throw, crossunder low forward throw, crossunder low forward low RH. It
was a massacre, as Balrog vs Dhalsim can be.
> Most of the Balrog v. Dhalsim fights I win (and I think it's
> very close, w/slight advantage to Balrog for having to play a bit
> less carefully (although you must still play smart)) involve me
> losing around 50-70% of my life, while taking ~10-20% damage from
> Dhalsim in trades, etc. Then I get the super, and walk all over
> him, sometimes not even having to actually use the super at all-
> just the threat of it seems to completely dismantle Dhalsim's
> game. You don't mention anything like this, or another clever
I find the super is devastating, but only when I'm range to use it. How
do you use it from full screen? The master never even tried the whiff
rush -> super trick, which he used all the time vs chun li. Perhaps
dhalsim can just block the super?
Yes, I know what you mean, I didn't mention anything exceptional. I
guess what I found exceptional was that he was able to consistently win
by trading, and more importantly not start jumping in. That was new
(for me at least).
> super charging technique ala Balrog v. Chun Li. For my own part,
> I'm often reduced to extremely ghetto tactics like randomly
> firing off low lvl TAPs with the expectation that I'll just
> get hit, but also get a healthy chunk of super (it charges
> a lot).
Ugh. I don't have the balls do to that. Can't dhalsim peg you with a
stand forward for 2 hits if you tap straight into a FB?
> BTW- the TAP is really important in this fight (and yes,
> it travels further the longer it's charged- knowing how far it
> will plow through your opponent is important for deciding what
> range to fire it from. It's important to listen to the level
> when it is launched- at lvl3 and above, the TAP's momentum is
> sufficient not just to hit you, but to keep driving far enough
> to leave Balrog in throw range after it ends (or if it hits,
> you can combo off of a lvl3+ TAP). If you're expecting
> Balrog to be left far away (as in a lvl1), you're just giving
> him a free throw. Anyway, the TAP is key because (this is
> relative to my anti-Dhalsim style, which does not include
> the short whiff into throw/buff.headbutt option):
> 1) It charges Super. Sometimes a lot of super. Once I
> have the super, I fear no Dhalsim trap. A cornered Dhalsim
> vs Balrog with super is very screwed- you can expect to lose
> whatever lead you've built up as Dhalsim if you find yourself
> in this situaiton.
Agreed there, although the pushout is still a threat.
> >of this move soon became apparent - it hit dhalsim's low fierce clean
> >AND traded with the stand forward! Not every time, but certainly the
> >odds of this move hitting were much better than those of my jump RH
> >guessing game.
>
> Yeah- but st. fierce is just always the wrong move vs. a jumping
> straight up Balrog, for precisely this reason. It's only about the
st.
> forward/short (and forward is just as good if not better (a bit more
> range and it hangs out longer, as well as doing more damage)).
You meant low fierce, not stand fierce, right?
Yeah, the stand forw was more effective, but doesn't the low fierce hit
balrog if he attacked really early in the air?
> >The sim player was able to work around the floating fierce by
> >concentrating on stand forward, which seemed to hit Balrog a lot
more.
> >Unfortunately, it did a lot less damage as well :)
>
> >short rush into throw. After a landed throw, the master would often
> >crossunder low forward, low RH for a two hit combo. I usually do the
> >low forward, low strong, low rush 3 hit combo, but I think the
master's
> >combo works from a greater range than mine and is thus more
versatile.
>
> I don't really see what you're talking about here. My only
> guess would be that perhaps the master's combo can be done from a
range
> where it's less attractive for Dhalsim to try a wake-up throw
reversal.
> You don't want to give him the opportunity for unearned damage.
> Otherwise, perhaps the low RH has some sort of special dizzy
properties.
> Damage on the 3hitter has to be better, and it knocks down just the
same.
> Finally- maybe the low RH combo leaves you in better position for him
> to repeat his whiff rush into option trick? Sounds a bit mysterious.
I'm guessing that it's because the 3 hit has to be done from the
perfect range. You have to crossunder just so. You can't really fake
someone out with an ambiguous crossunder if you're going for the 3 hit.
With the 2 hit, you can walk up to the range where it's unclear whether
the attack will be from behind or not, and then link into the combo.
Since the 3 hit requires charge, you have to commit to a full
crossunder.
> >The dhalsim team eventually won, but after considerable losses.
> >Anyways, congrats to them for beating the master even once :)
>
> How many games are we talking here? Although I'm sure the
> Dhalsim player/team was pretty awesome, the cynic in me wants to
> wonder if they were very familiar with the match, as trying to
> low fierce Balrog after he jumps straight up is a mistake that
> you should probably make once, and then never again.
It was something like 7 games vs dhalsim, and the dhalsim player's
friends were playing too. Maybe 15 total?
If I ever see him play vs a "known" dhalsim, I'll report on that.
> If I get some more time, I'll attempt a crummy ascii chart
> of the various ranges and their respective advantages for both
> Balrog and Dhalsim. It isn't at all the case that being closer
> is always better for Balrog- there are a number of very specific
> distinct ranges each with particular quirks. For instance-
> about an inch to the left of the screen (Balrog facing right)
> is much better for him than an two inches closer would be...
Cool!
> More later, I hope. Give us some more, Julien.
I will.
Julien
Lion
Most of them are not in famous places like Shinjuku so they have to
lower their prices to attract people. Some arcades do the low price
thing one day a week (for example). In magazines such as Gamest (rip)
you can see adds for such arcades with '50yens per play' or '10yens per
play' bigger than the name of the arcade itself.
Wenchi Liao
> skil...@students.uiuc.edu (seth j killian) wrote:
>I'm guessing that it's because the 3 hit has to be done from the
>perfect range. You have to crossunder just so. You can't really fake
>someone out with an ambiguous crossunder if you're going for the 3 hit.
>With the 2 hit, you can walk up to the range where it's unclear whether
>the attack will be from behind or not, and then link into the combo.
>Since the 3 hit requires charge, you have to commit to a full
>crossunder.
Can somebody explain the crossunder, the ambiguous crossunder,
and the ``attack [...] from behind'' bit?
WL
James M
> Can somebody explain the crossunder, the ambiguous crossunder,
> and the ``attack [...] from behind'' bit?
> WL
WHen Blarog finishes his throw the opponent flies up in the air high
enough for Balrog to walk underneath them if he chooses. SO as they are
in the air he walk part of the way under them and make it a bit unclear
which side he will be on when they land. (Keep in mind they land on
their feet) Julien is saying that if you want to do this and be
charging an attack you have to commit to one side or the other because
when you walk forward you will lose the charge, but if you don't want
to keep a charge you can wait longer and make it more ambiguous.
James M