Are You Somebody? by O'Faolain
The Pirate Queen
precious jewel.... and jewel it is.... with a brilliance and multi-faceted
clarity I've rarely encountered and I'm only on page 37!
I can't help but wonder, when it first came out... did it spark a huge
controversy?
Previously I've debated Gerard and Thomas about the differences in the
status of women in America and Ireland and what I consider to be similar and
dissimilar struggles and who is farther along. The descriptions in this
book just blow me away.... the world is so absolutely foreign to me. I
can't even begin to imagine the confinement of the world she grew up in
during the 40's and 50's. Against all odds, and also completely because of
her upbringing this woman is who she is... both a product of her times and
an example of breaking out of traditional roles and boundaries. But she
doesn't write with any bitterness, only rich description and compassion. I
just love this description:
"The nuns were the most powerful women in Ireland. But they didn't have any
ideals for the secular world. The thing that would bring a girl the most
praise was a desire to enter the convent, to be a Bride of Christ. When I
left school, the head nun -- who could have run General Motors, she was so
competent -- advised me, earnestly, that in whatever situation I might find
myself I should think what the Virgin Mary would have done and do the same."
After reading this, I thought to myself.... you know you've read lots of
books on women in Ireland... history, mythology, anthologies, Irish feminism
and much more. But in reading the first 37 pages of this book I almost feel
like I know nothing and still have so much to learn.
PQ
Sage
"The Pirate Queen" <p...@somewhereintx.com> wrote in message
news:q6ah8.44$Fm1.19653@news20...
I read "Are you somebody" when it came out in 1996 and was very taken with
the earlier and latter parts of the book. Nuala O'Faolain has a very easy
style to read and fills her story with evocations of all emotions.Its almost
as she is talking with you.
Her father was a character that intrigued me. He was known as "Terry
O'Sullivan" and wrote a social column every evening in the now defunct
"Evening Press". He seems to have been quite a lad, and the contrast between
the public and private persona was quite stark. I felt very much for her
mother, and the poverty and hardship she had to put up with. I suppose it is
hard nowadays to understand why she didn't abandon her husband. There seemed
to be something holding them together. Nuala's own encounters as a young wan
with Charlie Haughey probably could have been gone into more.
Its a good read and all human frailties are exposed in her story - IIRC
Nuala is bi-sexual and lived with Nell McCafferty for about 10 years. I've
often threatened to re-read it - I'll dig it out again now that you have
jigged the memory.
K.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The Pirate Queen
"Sage" <k.pr...@ienospamgateway.net> wrote in message
> Nuala O'Faolain has a very easy
> style to read and fills her story with evocations of all emotions.Its
almost
> as she is talking with you.
> Her father was a character that intrigued me. He was known as "Terry
> O'Sullivan" and wrote a social column every evening in the now defunct
> "Evening Press". He seems to have been quite a lad, and the contrast
between
> the public and private persona was quite stark.
he obviously was a major figure for her... even in the short bit I've read
<snip>
> Its a good read and all human frailties are exposed in her story - IIRC
> Nuala is bi-sexual and lived with Nell McCafferty for about 10 years. I've
> often threatened to re-read it - I'll dig it out again now that you have
> jigged the memory.
Ahh... I feel as if I done a good deed... ;-) But neither you nor Gerard
answered my question... did this book cause a stir when it was first
released? I would expect the part about the young girls all having crushes
on each other and giving their objects of affection presents and erotic
words would have scandalized the convent schools. ;-) And this is only one
of many sexuality topics touched upon... no pun intended.
PQ
btw, K, did you get my email?
Shiny Boots of Leather
Kimmage" (ah, great book to study, as well, though she- Rosemary Nelson, I
believe, a yank- left out some groups in her attempts to be inclusive).
Haven't picked up O'Faolain's novel yet...still trying to forget "Burning of
Bridget Cleary"
Cyn
Sage
"The Pirate Queen" <p...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6lfh8.53702$6j2.3...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
the time of shocks had passed. I think Nuala's own sexuality was known at
that time so the impact wasn't great. If it had come out about 5 years
earlier then there probably would have been a lot of controvesry about the
erotic crushes, the convents and the nuns etc.
I got your mail ok and will respond when I have had a chat with a couple of
people.
K
>
>
unki
"The Pirate Queen" <p...@somewhereintx.com> wrote:
>Previously I've debated Gerard and Thomas about the differences in the
>status of women in America and Ireland and what I consider to be similar
and
>dissimilar struggles and who is farther along.
Women in all societies regardless of how ‘advanced’ the society is or isn’t
live under some degree of oppression. Men even the most sincere and honest
are far more animalistic and how they control their own attitudes towards
women is generally determined by their social upbringing/personality. In
Ireland traditionally women were domestics and papist battery hens. Nowadays
they have a lot more freedom and choices but like everything else they have
had to fight for it.
>The descriptions in this
>book just blow me away.... the world is so absolutely foreign to me. I
>can't even begin to imagine the confinement of the world she grew up in
>during the 40's and 50's.
Again, it's as foreign to women living in Ireland in 2002 as it is to you.
Women in Ireland today are no longer held hostage to such psychosexual control
mechanisms where their view of reality has been utterly reconstructed to
serve the dominant misogynistic paradigm even to the point where they wear
their self-destruction as a badge of honour.
American women, as with most Americas in general have had significantly more
self-confidence than Irish people. This is the real reason why we resent
you celebrating you’re ‘Irish’ ness and so on – you are more conformable
with it and we are jealous.
docaay
of the details. I do remember, however, that I totally
identified with some of her dealings with men. They were much
the same as mine growing up in a different country but Catholic.
Times have much improved for women, don't let anyone tell you
that they haven't.
Doc
KateH
I must've read it about the same time and liked the beginning and end, but
the middle part seemed to plod along ........and I recall that it turned
into a bit of a "who's who" of the people she knew. I did like it though
and thought she'd had an interesting (tho, not very desirable) life.
KateH
The Pirate Queen
"Shiny Boots of Leather" <cynl...@aol.com> wrote in message
> I happened to like the book, since I picked it up right after "Whoredom in
> Kimmage" (ah, great book to study, as well, though she- Rosemary Nelson, I
> believe, a yank- left out some groups in her attempts to be inclusive).
yeah we talked about Kimmage here too
> Haven't picked up O'Faolain's novel yet...still trying to forget "Burning
of
> Bridget Cleary"
oh I've got that last one but haven't started it yet.... why are you trying
to forget it? bad book? or just the story of a woman being "crucified?"
L
The Pirate Queen
"Sage" <k.pr...@ienospamgateway.net> wrote in message news:SZmh8.5396
> It got a bit of publicity alright asany new autobiography would, but I
think
> the time of shocks had passed. I think Nuala's own sexuality was known at
> that time so the impact wasn't great. If it had come out about 5 years
> earlier then there probably would have been a lot of controvesry about the
> erotic crushes, the convents and the nuns etc.
so then in a broad sense are you saying that Ireland sort of underwent a
transformation between 1991 and 1996?
> I got your mail ok and will respond when I have had a chat with a couple
of
> people.
Thanks
PQ
The Pirate Queen
"unki" <kfuz...@tinet.ie> wrote in message
news:3c860b80$1...@news.boards.ie...
> Women in all societies regardless of how 'advanced' the society is or
isn't
> live under some degree of oppression.
ain't it the truth! ;-)
Men even the most sincere and honest
> are far more animalistic and how they control their own attitudes towards
> women is generally determined by their social upbringing/personality. In
> Ireland traditionally women were domestics and papist battery hens.
Nowadays
> they have a lot more freedom and choices but like everything else they
have
> had to fight for it.
no disagreement about having to fight for it... same the world over... and
not just women... any oppressed group
> >The descriptions in this
> >book just blow me away.... the world is so absolutely foreign to me. I
> >can't even begin to imagine the confinement of the world she grew up in
> >during the 40's and 50's.
> Again, it's as foreign to women living in Ireland in 2002 as it is to you.
really? now this I find a little difficult to believe... as I said to
Sage... so somehow you see a huge transformation happening between say 1960
and today? I mean obviously things have changed but I would still think
Irish women would understand the Ireland of 1940's and 1950's (and in some
way identify with it on some level because we are talking about the mothers
of Irish women currently in their 30's and 40's)... way better than I could
understand and identify. When I was saying the situation described was
totally foreign I was placing this in the context of what I knew about my
mother and grandmothers' experiences here in America too (not just my
own)... and believe me... it would still be totally different and would
still be foreign.
> Women in Ireland today are no longer held hostage to such psychosexual
control
> mechanisms where their view of reality has been utterly reconstructed to
> serve the dominant misogynistic paradigm even to the point where they wear
> their self-destruction as a badge of honour.
that is an excellent quote!
> American women, as with most Americas in general have had significantly
more
> self-confidence than Irish people. This is the real reason why we resent
> you celebrating you're 'Irish' ness and so on - you are more conformable
> with it and we are jealous.
American psyche vs. the Irish psyche huh? ;-) I dunno really..... I know
lots of American women with loads of self confidence.... of course those are
who I would form bonds with... but then again... I know many more with none.
And if I think about the Irish women I've formed bonds with... it again is
mostly with self-confident women but it is a different kind of
self-confidence. I'm not sure I know how to describe it. I've been trying
to figure out the difference just because I'm always curious about different
cultures and experiences and how they shape us.
PQ
The Pirate Queen
"docaay" <**docaye**@yahoo.com> wrote
> I read the book a couple of years back, my memory is not too deep
> of the details. I do remember, however, that I totally
> identified with some of her dealings with men. They were much
> the same as mine growing up in a different country but Catholic.
interesting... maybe things are so foreign to me because I'm not Catholic
> Times have much improved for women, don't let anyone tell you
> that they haven't.
excuse me, I have no idea what prompted this comment... I didn't once imply
nor do I believe things haven't improved... I was commenting on a specific
time period. Yeah I do believe things have improved for women, and men too
actually. Thank the Goddess! ;-)
PQ
docaay
Sorry, PQ, I was using the generic "you" here. I just wanted to
make my point that things are so much better than they used to
be.
Yes, the similarites may be because I grew up in a Catholic
house. Many of the experiences she had were quite similar to
mine. I'm afraid it's been some time since I read the book and
can't quote any specifics, but I remember thinking at the
time..ah, someone else has had that happen! :)
Doc
(things have changed for men, I'm not sure they are all in
agreement that that change was for the better)
bren
docaay <**docaye**@yahoo.com> writes:
> Doc
> (things have changed for men, I'm not sure they are all in
> agreement that that change was for the better)
Men don't like change. It's a fact. We like things to stay the way
they are. We would wear the same style of trousers for 40 years if we
weren't threathened with bodily harm when going to a do.
I am very unhappy with women at the moment to be honest. Everywhere I
look around I see men fucking the planet up and I had hoped that women
would stage some sort of revolution and take the place over. And ye
haven't, so I'm very cross. I'm not naive enough to think that women
are intrinsically better people than men but maybe what with giving
birth and all ye have a better appreciation of the value of a
life. Anyway ye couldn't have fucked it up more than men have to
date. Either women take the planet over (or aliens, I'd go for that)
soon or I'm going to live on a Blasket.
bren
The Pirate Queen
"bren" <br...@dspsrv.com> wrote in message
news:VIqh8.31$Va2.898@psinet-eu-nl...
LOL... if you weren't taken I'd ask ya to marry me! I have not forgotten
how sensuous you looked sitting on Unki's lap. ;-)
PQ
unki
docaay <**docaye**@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I grew up in a Catholic house.
Where the walls made from communion wafers or something?
docaay
Those in wafer houses shouldn't throw scones.
Doc
unki
>> Women in Ireland today are no longer held hostage to such psychosexual
>control
>> mechanisms where their view of reality has been utterly reconstructed
to
>> serve the dominant misogynistic paradigm even to the point where they
wear
>> their self-destruction as a badge of honour.
>
>that is an excellent quote!
I was trying to impress the chicks.
Sutal
>From: docaay **docaye**@yahoo.com
We discussed "Are You Somebody" just a wee bit here in SCI ... a year or two
ago? I dunno, and I'm too lazy to look in Google. I enjoyed the book,
probably due to the fact that I want to be exposed to the thoughts of Irish
women and it certainly seems a difficult quest at times.
Anyway, it really bothered me that she only *implied* her sexual relationship
with her girlfriend rather than simply stating it for fact. I felt sad for
her. For all her success and talent, she obviously still allowed herself to
worry about the judgement of other people in regard to her choices. I wanted
her to say "this is the somebody I am", and felt that she just said "I might be
this somebody, if it doesn't bother you too much".
JRDuffy
"docaay" <**docaye**@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C863FCA...@yahoo.com...
Depends who's buttering them.
--
J Duffy
"If it doesn't kill you it's craic"
derm
>
>"The Pirate Queen" <p...@somewhereintx.com> wrote:
>
>>Previously I've debated Gerard and Thomas about the differences in the
>>status of women in America and Ireland and what I consider to be similar
>and
>>dissimilar struggles and who is farther along.
>
>
>Women in all societies regardless of how ‘advanced’ the society is or isn’t
>live under some degree of oppression. Men even the most sincere and honest
>are far more animalistic and how they control their own attitudes towards
>women is generally determined by their social upbringing/personality. In
>Ireland traditionally women were domestics and papist battery hens. Nowadays
>they have a lot more freedom and choices but like everything else they have
>had to fight for it.
>
>
>>The descriptions in this
>>book just blow me away.... the world is so absolutely foreign to me. I
>>can't even begin to imagine the confinement of the world she grew up in
>>during the 40's and 50's.
>
>
>
>Again, it's as foreign to women living in Ireland in 2002 as it is to you.
>Women in Ireland today are no longer held hostage to such psychosexual control
>mechanisms where their view of reality has been utterly reconstructed to
>serve the dominant misogynistic paradigm even to the point where they wear
>their self-destruction as a badge of honour.
That hasn't helped my sesquipedalophobia one bit...
bren
"The Pirate Queen" <p...@austin.rr.com> writes:
> LOL... if you weren't taken I'd ask ya to marry me! I have not forgotten
> how sensuous you looked sitting on Unki's lap. ;-)
That wasn't sensuous. That was "please tell me that's his keys".
bren
bren
unki
I was sitting on Jake's lap the other night.
BTW Jake The photo of me are NOT TO GO PUBLIC while that Top Gun wanker is
still around. thanks.
bren
"unki" <kfuz...@tinet.ie> writes:
> I was sitting on Jake's lap the other night.
Are Jake and Mullo meeting up in London? If so where? I doubt I
can make it, but I'd like to be given a chance!
bren
unki
Mullo has gone missing - I'm getting a bit worried.
--
[Posted at boards.ie]
http://www.boards.ie/
Ireland's Bulletin Boards, News Groups, Chat Rooms
After Hours - Games - Technology - Work - For Sale
bren
"unki" <kfuz...@tinet.ie> writes:
> Mullo has gone missing - I'm getting a bit worried.
This is turning into a horror movie. I Know What Ye Did Last
SCIcon. There ye were, sitting in the bar and someone says
"Lets go dancing" and a big hush descends and everyone else is like
"no, no, we can't we never dance, it would upset the Dark Gods" and
then ye get a bit more beery and ye decide fuck the Dark Gods and ye
go dancing and now, one by one, ye are dissappearing. This won't be
the end of it, soon several of the women will be scantily clad and
several of the men will be all macho before they're offed, stabbed in
the back with a JiveBunny CD.
bren
Mullo
>
> br...@dspsrv.com (bren) wrote:
> >In article <3c875a4a$1...@news.boards.ie>,
> > "unki" <kfuz...@tinet.ie> writes:
> >
> >> I was sitting on Jake's lap the other night.
> >
> >Are Jake and Mullo meeting up in London? If so where? I doubt I
> >can make it, but I'd like to be given a chance!
> >
> >bren
>
>
>
> Mullo has gone missing - I'm getting a bit worried.
Not missing, working as I told ya, but I am here for my friends, especially
if somebody threatens them. I may be a few miles away but it's not exactly
the other side of the world.
Pat
KateH
> "unki" wrote
> > Mullo has gone missing - I'm getting a bit worried.
>
> Not missing, working as I told ya, but I am here for my friends,
especially
> if somebody threatens them. I may be a few miles away but it's not exactly
> the other side of the world.
That depends, eh?
Kate(from the other side of the planet)H
And if we were near the equator would we have to be further away to be on
different sides of the planet?
Pat Mull is back to being just a fat bastard
Bren
You said you wouldn't be available, Jake hasn't spoken to me about meeting
in London. I did offer to drive her to you.( shut up Unki) I believe. but I
understand you said you could'nt make it.
Pat
bren
"Pat Mull is back to being just a fat bastard" <mu...@madasafish.com> writes:
> Bren
>
> You said you wouldn't be available, Jake hasn't spoken to me about meeting
> in London. I did offer to drive her to you.( shut up Unki) I believe. but I
> understand you said you could'nt make it.
>
> Pat
Not to worry Pat. I said I probably couldn't make it (getting to London involves
a drive, then train then tube and back again which means no drink and hours of
travel) but I just figured if I knew the location I could get a figary and go
for it. I missed Jake when I was in Philly too (she was in the UK at the time).
Anyway, sounds like ye all had fun in Dublin without me *sniff*.
bren
unki
"Mullo" <mu...@madasafish.com> wrote:
>
>"unki" <kfuz...@tinet.ie> wrote in message
>news:3c8772f4$1...@news.boards.ie...
>>
>> br...@dspsrv.com (bren) wrote:
>> >In article <3c875a4a$1...@news.boards.ie>,
>> > "unki" <kfuz...@tinet.ie> writes:
>> >
>> >> I was sitting on Jake's lap the other night.
>> >
>> >Are Jake and Mullo meeting up in London? If so where? I doubt I
>> >can make it, but I'd like to be given a chance!
>> >
>> >bren
>>
>>
>>
>> Mullo has gone missing - I'm getting a bit worried.
>
>
>Not missing, working as I told ya, but I am here for my friends, especially
>if somebody threatens them. I may be a few miles away but it's not exactly
>the other side of the world.
Good, I was worried there. I can take care of myself Pat. But cheers anyway.
Pat Mull is back to being just a fat bastard
I clinched that contract I was tellin' ya about and was celebrating last
night
me head is at war with the rest of me body today...........never again
:-))))
> Good, I was worried there.
AH sure if ya worry ya die
If ya don't worry ya still die
So why worry??
> I can take care of myself Pat. But cheers anyway.
I know you can, just felt the need to show support.
Pat
Sage
"Pat Mull is back to being just a fat bastard" <mu...@madasafish.com> wrote
in message news:u8ifl9f...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "unki" <kfuz...@tinet.ie> wrote in message
> news:3c8894c3$1...@news.boards.ie...
> >
> > "Mullo" <mu...@madasafish.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >"unki" <kfuz...@tinet.ie> wrote in message
> > >news:3c8772f4$1...@news.boards.ie...
> > >>
> > >> br...@dspsrv.com (bren) wrote:
> > >> >In article <3c875a4a$1...@news.boards.ie>,
> > >> > "unki" <kfuz...@tinet.ie> writes:
> > >> >
> > >> >> I was sitting on Jake's lap the other night.
> > >> >
> > >> >Are Jake and Mullo meeting up in London? If so where? I doubt I
> > >> >can make it, but I'd like to be given a chance!
> > >> >
> > >> >bren
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Mullo has gone missing - I'm getting a bit worried.
> > >
> > >
> > >Not missing, working as I told ya, but I am here for my friends,
> especially
> > >if somebody threatens them. I may be a few miles away but it's not
> exactly
> > >the other side of the world.
> >
>
> I clinched that contract I was tellin' ya about and was celebrating last
> night
> me head is at war with the rest of me body today...........never again
> :-))))
>
Now heres some Ponstan and a glass of water................
K
bren
jake <iubh...@earthlink.net> writes:
> ...and only 10 miles apart when you were here, too. Damn.
>
> jake
I'm sorry Jake. I was off ill there for almost a week and lost
touch. How close were you? London as I said to Pat is not good for me,
but I might have straggeld down. I'm sure you enjoyed the place
without me anyway :)
bren