Why is L&T in quotation marks?

James Hurlbut

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Sep 30, 2001, 4:11:24 PM9/30/01

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First off I think "Love and Theft" is a stunning body of work, but
does anyone have any ideas on why the title is in quotation marks?
Just wonderin'.
Best,
Jim

http://members.fortunecity.com/radiated/jimstapelist/

Wolfds

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Sep 30, 2001, 5:06:37 PM9/30/01

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nelf...@yahoo.com wrote:

>First off I think "Love and Theft" is a stunning body of work, but
>does anyone have any ideas on why the title is in quotation marks?
>Just wonderin'.
>Best,
>Jim

Because even the title is stolen?

Dave

Phil Wise

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Sep 30, 2001, 5:23:49 PM9/30/01

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"James Hurlbut" <nelf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d53140d4.01093...@posting.google.com...

> First off I think "Love and Theft" is a stunning body of work, but
> does anyone have any ideas on why the title is in quotation marks?
> Just wonderin'.
> Best,
> Jim

I believe it is also the title of a (recent?) book on minstrelstry by Eric
Lott. If so, there may be quite a complex joke going on here - theft of
identity, but everyone knows (blackface in minstrelstry), theft of a title,
and letting people know (i.e. he may regard minstrelstry as a form of
quotation of identity), and then the debts Dylan owes on this album and over
his career to other musicians and their songs (such as Dylan's frequent
"quotations" from existing folk melodies???). And of course we should not
forget the love that is right next to the theft.

Of course, this could be a real flight of fancy, because I haven't read the
book...,

phil
>
> http://members.fortunecity.com/radiated/jimstapelist/

Roxo

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Sep 30, 2001, 7:21:41 PM9/30/01

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BD admitting he's "quoting" from someelse.

"James Hurlbut" <nelf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d53140d4.01093...@posting.google.com...

John Howells

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Oct 1, 2001, 12:08:28 AM10/1/01

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nelf...@yahoo.com (James Hurlbut) writes:

<First off I think "Love and Theft" is a stunning body of work, but
<does anyone have any ideas on why the title is in quotation marks?
<Just wonderin'.
<Best,
<Jim

My theory: the cover is made to look like an early issue of Life
magazine from the 1930s or 1940s, therefore the caption on the "cover"
would be in quotes because that was typical of the style of a magazine
cover from that era. In other words, "Love and Theft" is the cover
story in the pages of this fake edition of a fake magazine.

--

John Howells
how...@punkhart.com
http://www.punkhart.com

Howard Mirowitz

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Oct 1, 2001, 5:24:14 AM10/1/01

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James Hurlbut <nelf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d53140d4.01093...@posting.google.com...

> First off I think "Love and Theft" is a stunning body of work, but
> does anyone have any ideas on why the title is in quotation marks?

I ran this by Arthur Louie and he thought it was an OK idea, so here goes
... it has to do with the paradox of Godelian self reference. Here's the
logic behind the idea --

In his book, _Godel, Escher and Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid_, Douglas
Hofstadter illustrates the operation of "quining a phrase" -- prepending the
quotation of a phrase (in actual quote marks) to the original phrase in
order to produce undecidable propositions. For example: "'Yields falsehood
preceded by its quotation' yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation".
(Try figuring out if that sentence is true, or false!) Hofstadter called
this "quining" in honor of the philosopher Willard Van Orman Quine, who
wrote extensively about the difference between using a word or phrase and
just mentioning it. A phrase of text is a symbol for some meaning. When we
speak or write that phrase, we convey the meaning, but when we just mention
it -- when put it in quote marks -- we are just referring to the text, the
symbol itself, and not to the phrase's actual meaning.

Godel, in his famous proof that mathematical logic is either inconsistent or
incomplete, used exactly this trick of "quining" to make a mathematical
sentence that is true, yet can not be proven. Godel's sentence is a
paradox; it refers to itself in just the same way as " 'Yields falsehood
when preceded by its quotation' yields falsehood when preceded by its
quotation" refers to itself.

In "Love And Theft", Dylan quined the love and theft in his songs in the
album's title, "Love And Theft". So the subtext, the meaning of the entire
album, when preceded by its quotation, its symbol, yields a paradox.

There will be a test on this at the end of tomorrow's HWY61-L digest, so
study it carefully. And remember, kids, Dylan once said that he wrote
"mathematical music".

H.

Groucho

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Oct 1, 2001, 8:33:05 AM10/1/01

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Purely design - the way it looks, not what it means

Groucho

Remember to add your misheard Dylan lyrics to
'Mishoid Dylan Lyrics'

http://www.mockfrog.com/groucho/mishoidlyrics/index.html

-----------

George Spanos

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Oct 1, 2001, 4:34:39 PM10/1/01

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on 10/1/01 3:27 PM, Automatic digest processor at
LIST...@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU wrote:

> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 09:24:14 GMT
> From: Howard Mirowitz <miro...@pacbell.net>
> Subject: Re: Why is L&T in quotation marks?

>
> James Hurlbut <nelf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:d53140d4.01093...@posting.google.com...

>> First off I think "Love and Theft" is a stunning body of work, but
>> does anyone have any ideas on why the title is in quotation marks?
>

> I ran this by Arthur Louie and he thought it was an OK idea, so here goes

> .... it has to do with the paradox of Godelian self reference. Here's the

Excellent post!! Godel, Escher, Bach, and Dylan. Who'da ever thunk it!

For the test, will we need to know about Godel numbers, Cantor, and that
diagonal step?

And, by the way, the sentence you are about to read is true: The sentence
you just read is false.

George