Heinlein and freemasonry?
Ben Crowell
any, with freemasonry? Ginny says he wasn't a mason:
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/FAQrah.html
Critic Bill Patterson says
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/ifthisogoeson.html
there's masonry up the wazoo in "If This Goes On---," but after going
through it fairly carefully, I sure can't find anything so explicit.
As far as I can tell, Heinlein merely borrowed some terminology from
the masons in imagining the Cabal. (There are two versions of the
story. I'm working from the longer one, in The Past Through Tomorrow.)
TIA!
David M. Palmer
wrote:
In _The_Cat_Who_Walks_Through_Walls_ (IIRC) the protagonist
impersonates a Shriner, but doesn't give the appropriate countersigns
when he meets another Mason, leading to more problems.
--
David M. Palmer dmpa...@email.com (formerly @clark.net, @ematic.com)
Dorothy J Heydt
Maybe Heinlein went and saw a performance of _The Magic Flute_?
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
djinn
All of the Masonic references I can remember are the kind of things
that could be picked up by knowing Masons or reading about them. I
don't think anyone's ever found any record of his membership in a
lodge, and plenty of Feemasons would be happy to claim him.
You might ask in alt.fan.heinlein, the question has come up before
over there.
Nancy Lebovitz
Ben Crowell <"crowell06 at lightSPAMandISmatterEVIL.com"> wrote:
Is the shorter version available as a book, or is it just the magazine
version? Is there much difference between it and the _Past through
Tomorrow_ version?
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://nancylebov.livejournal.com
My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
Dan Swartzendruber
dje...@gmail.com says...
Didn't Revolt in 2100 have supposedly Masonic stuff?
Howard Brazee
<dmpa...@email.com> wrote:
>In _The_Cat_Who_Walks_Through_Walls_ (IIRC) the protagonist
>impersonates a Shriner, but doesn't give the appropriate countersigns
>when he meets another Mason, leading to more problems.
I like the signs in two stories:
The Man Who Would Be King
The Cask of Amontillado
Bill Patterson
> Critic Bill Patterson says
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/ifthisogoeson.html
Actually, you've somewhat misrepresented what I said. There is an
abundance of the kind of masonic terminology and so forth that can be
researched in any well-equipped library -- i.e., I said about the same
thing you said.
The short answer to your question is that a friend interested him in
Freemasony while he was at the U.S. Naval Academy (1925-1929), but he
could not afford the initiation at the time, and by the time he could
afford it, he was no longer so highly interested. Some people in the
Society have been researching the possibility he might have been
admitted as an apprentice without the costly initiation, but have found
no evidence to bolster that possibility.
Heinlein was interested in some of the same notions Freemasons are
nowadays interested in -- "finding good men and making them better" --
so there was a natural intersection of ideas, but he never apparently
belonged to the organization.
Bill Patterson
Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
> Is the shorter version [of "If This Goes On --"] available as a book, or is it just the magazine
> version? Is there much difference between it and the _Past through
> Tomorrow_ version?
So far as I know, the 33,000 word version was only published in
Astounding. In 1953, Heinlein substantially rewrote it, increasing the
total word count to about 55,000 words, changing the resolution (in the
Astounding version John Lyle married his Judith; in the Revolt in 2100
revision, he marries Magdalen, the Virgin who he met killing a nosy
guard], and got rid of a plot turn that raised some negative comment.
The 1953 revision added a great deal of material about John Lyle's
researches into traditional and suppressed American history and showed
how this changed him over from an indoctrinated Scudderite to a Second
American Revolutionary, plus a subplot about his sexual initiation.
If it's of interest, e-mail me and I'll e-mail my "Study of 'If This
Goes On--'" and "Study of 'Coventry'" for your use. These studies have
extended sections on the differences between the 1940 and 1953 versions
of both.
Bill
Mike Schilling
"Nancy Lebovitz" <nan...@panix.com> wrote in message news:ebmvfh$9q7$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <fq2dnR-mpchVMEPZ...@adelphia.com>,
> Ben Crowell <"crowell06 at lightSPAMandISmatterEVIL.com"> wrote:
>>Does anyone have any insights into Robert Heinlein's relationship, if
>>any, with freemasonry? Ginny says he wasn't a mason:
>> http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/FAQrah.html
>>Critic Bill Patterson says
>> http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/ifthisogoeson.html
>>there's masonry up the wazoo in "If This Goes On---," but after going
>>through it fairly carefully, I sure can't find anything so explicit.
>>As far as I can tell, Heinlein merely borrowed some terminology from
>>the masons in imagining the Cabal. (There are two versions of the
>>story. I'm working from the longer one, in The Past Through Tomorrow.)
>
> Is the shorter version available as a book, or is it just the magazine
> version? Is there much difference between it and the _Past through
> Tomorrow_ version?
Here's a comparison of the two, written by our own Bill Patterson.
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/ifthisogoeson.html
Ben Crowell
> Ben Crowell wrote:
>
>>Critic Bill Patterson says
>> http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/ifthisogoeson.html
>>there's masonry up the wazoo in "If This Goes On---," <snip>
>
>
> Actually, you've somewhat misrepresented what I said. There is an
> abundance of the kind of masonic terminology and so forth that can be
> researched in any well-equipped library -- i.e., I said about the same
> thing you said.
Sorry, it was sloppy of me to paraphrase you so loosely.
Ben Crowell
> If it's of interest, e-mail me and I'll e-mail my "Study of 'If This
> Goes On--'" and "Study of 'Coventry'" for your use. These studies have
> extended sections on the differences between the 1940 and 1953 versions
> of both.
Not sure if this offer was addressed to me, but if so, I would be
interested in reading them -- thanks! Remove SPAM IS EVIL from
my e-mail address.
William December Starr
"Bill Patterson" <WHPat...@gmail.com> said:
[ re "If This Goes On --" ]
> So far as I know, the 33,000 word version was only published in
> Astounding. In 1953, Heinlein substantially rewrote it,
> increasing the total word count to about 55,000 words, changing
> the resolution (in the Astounding version John Lyle married his
> Judith; in the Revolt in 2100 revision, he marries Magdalen, the
> Virgin who he met killing a nosy guard], and got rid of a plot
> turn that raised some negative comment.
What was that?
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Dan Goodman
> "Bill Patterson" <WHPat...@gmail.com> said:
>
> [ re "If This Goes On --" ]
>
> > So far as I know, the 33,000 word version was only published in
> > Astounding. In 1953, Heinlein substantially rewrote it,
> > increasing the total word count to about 55,000 words, changing
> > the resolution (in the Astounding version John Lyle married his
> > Judith; in the Revolt in 2100 revision, he marries Magdalen, the
> > Virgin who he met killing a nosy guard], and got rid of a plot
> > turn that raised some negative comment.
>
> What was that?
I believe it had to do with the Good Guys deciding to brainwash
dissidents and counter-revolutionaries.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Ben Crowell
> I believe it had to do with the Good Guys deciding to brainwash
> dissidents and counter-revolutionaries.
There's plenty of psychological manipulation in the long version.
Patterson's article
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/ifthisogoeson.html
has a summary of what's in what version.
Dan Goodman
> Dan Goodman wrote:
> > I believe it had to do with the Good Guys deciding to brainwash
> > dissidents and counter-revolutionaries.
>
> There's plenty of psychological manipulation in the long version.
> Patterson's article
Sure, but that part is out -- as in Virtue Triumphs when it's suggested.
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/ifthisogoeson.html
> has a summary of what's in what version.
--
Tim McDaniel
Dan Swartzendruber <dsw...@druber.com> wrote:
>In article <1155448767....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
>dje...@gmail.com says...
>>
>> Ben Crowell wrote:
>>
>> All of the Masonic references I can remember are the kind of things
>> that could be picked up by knowing Masons or reading about them.
>
_Revolt in 2100_ was a collection of three stories, plus introduction
and postscript:
- The Innocent Eye: An Introduction by Henry Kuttner
- "If This Goes On--"
- Coventry
- Misfit
- Concerning Stories Never Written: Postscript
So 'masonry up the wazoo in "If This Goes On---"' means _Revolt in 2100_.
--
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tm...@panix.com
Mike Stone
"David M. Palmer" <dmpa...@email.com> wrote in message
news:120820062259536650%dmpa...@email.com...
>
> In _The_Cat_Who_Walks_Through_Walls_ (IIRC) the protagonist
> impersonates a Shriner, but doesn't give the appropriate
countersigns
> when he meets another Mason, leading to more problems.
>
And a passing reference in TEFL. When Lazarus is back in 1917
Missouri, the sheriff (questioning him as a suspected vagrant)
makes a lodge recognition signal. Lazarus knows the resposne, but
doesn't make it as this might lead to awkward questions abouthois
Lodge etc.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
"It is so stupid of modern civilisation to have given up believing
in the devil, when he is its only explanation"
Ronald Knox
Bill Patterson
> Not sure if this offer was addressed to me, but if so, I would be
> interested in reading them -- thanks! Remove SPAM IS EVIL from
> my e-mail address.
The link in the initiating post was to the posted version of the ITGO
study, and I'd actually prefer you read that one; I had forgotten until
I looked it over yesterday that it corrects an error in the published
version. The Coventry study is less relevant to the question here
(though I think it's the best of these studies).
Bill Patterson
> I believe it had to do with the Good Guys deciding to brainwash
> dissidents and counter-revolutionaries.
That's the one I had in mind -- not commented on negatively by
contemporary readers, but it was the subject of discussion by Panshin
and Franklin.
Bill Patterson
> Bill Patterson wrote:
> Sorry, it was sloppy of me to paraphrase you so loosely.
De nada.
Peter Trei
This matches well with information I received at the Masonic Digest,
indirectly from his widow, back in the early 90s.
Peter Trei
Past Master, Wilder Lodge
Former Editor, Masonic Digest
David M. Palmer
> there's masonry up the wazoo in "If This Goes On---,"
That sounds painful.
But I guess I now know what "sh*t a brick" means.