Nora
--
Nora Stevens Heath <no...@fumizuki.com>
J-E translations: http://www.fumizuki.com/
> I'm trying to find some dummy or placeholder text. In English, we use 'lorem
> ipsum...', based originally on a Ciceronic text, but is there an equivalent
> in Japanese?
In my experience, it's either English (one random sentence over and
over) or the Japanese text printed reversed (i.e., so you need a
mirror to read it).
--
Marc Adler
Austin, TX
Gauçac eztira multçutu, eta berretu behar mengoaric, eta premiaric gabe
http://honyaku-archive.org/posts/206955/
and here's the start of an even earlier thread from August of last year:
http://honyaku-archive.org/posts/195144/
Nora
I noticed I used double-double(?) negatives which may have been
confusing to some who read Japanese using dictionaries. The correct
translation for the above is: "I totally agree!!!"
Mika Jarmusz @ YES, with triple exclamation marks.
Salem, Oregon USA
アーカイブを「まとめて」検索できるのは、
ほんに、まことに便利ですね!
Ryanさん、ご苦労様でした。早速利用させていただいています。
古いスレッドで提案された
コンピュータ生成のランダムな日本語は、
デザインテンプレートなどの形で
広く日本人に見せるには不適切ではないでしょうか。
http://www.lorem-ipsum.info/_japanese#note
Please note that Japanese filler text is explicitly not suited for
the Japanese speakers for the same reason classic "Lorem Ipsum" style
filler text is not suited for the (few remaining) Latin speakers: They
actually understand it... and this is not intended.
(いやあ、そうなんですよ。わかってくれてるじゃないですか。)
文字を裏返す画像も面白いですし、
用途によっては役立ちそうですが、
実際に「文字」でないと役に立たない場合もあるので、
やはりlorem ipsumの日本語版がほしいところです。
http://www.tg.rim.or.jp/~hexane/ach/lbcs/lbcs4-08.htm
こちらの「化学の教科書」っぽい文章、
私などにはちょうどぴったり lorem ipsumの
あの子守歌のような響きが...
読み手にもよるんでしょう、ね。
公表しない文書であれば、私は、
これは日本語のテストです。これは日本語のテストです。
これは日本語のテストです。これは日本語のテストです。
を入れたりします。
ダミー文章ダミー文章ダミー文章
ダミー文章ダミー文章ダミー文章
なども見られますが、これも冴えないですね。
ところで、
つれづれなるまゝに、日暮らし、硯にむかひて、心にうつりゆくよしなし事を、そこはかとなく書きつくれば、あやしうこそものぐるほしけれ、云々
...などいかがでしょうか。
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/ghostbass/20070627/1182942520
(うーん、それはちょっとだめなんじゃ...)
Mika Jarmusz @再送信
Salem, Oregon USA
寿限無、寿限無
五劫の擦り切れ
海砂利水魚の
水行末 雲来末 風来末
食う寝る処に住む処
やぶら小路の藪柑子
パイポパイポ パイポのシューリンガン
シューリンガンのグーリンダイ
グーリンダイのポンポコピーのポンポコナーの
長久命の長助
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AF%BF%E9%99%90%E7%84%A1
--
-------------------------
Currie.jp 翻訳サービス
クーリー才文
si...@currie.jp
070-6484-9854
http://www.currie.jp
-------------------------
On 2007/11/12, at 2:48, mika jz wrote:
> http://www.lorem-ipsum.info/_japanese#note
> Please note that Japanese filler text is explicitly not suited for
> the Japanese speakers for the same reason classic "Lorem Ipsum" style
> filler text is not suited for the (few remaining) Latin speakers: They
> actually understand it... and this is not intended.
> (いやあ、そうなんですよ。わかってくれてるじ
Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp
It is not complete nonsense. See the following from www.lipsum.com:
Where does it come from?
Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has
roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over
2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney
College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words,
consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of
the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source.
Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus
Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero,
written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics,
very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum,
"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.
The standard Lorem Ipsum passage, used since the 1500s
"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do
eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim
ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in
reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla
pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt
in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum."
Section 1.10.32 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum", written by Cicero
in 45 BC
... dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit,
sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore
magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis
nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut
aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure
reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae
consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla
pariatur?"
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven H. Zaveloff gua...@gmail.com
P.O. Box 200203 Tel: (512)219-7142
Austin, Texas 78720-0203 Fax: (512)233-2770
http://home.earthlink.net/~zaveloff/
Not by harming life does one become noble.
One is termed noble for being gentle to all living things.
-Dhammapada
Doreen who was reading Cicero at 16 and has a Cambridge degree in Classics
Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp
Since this thread is in search of text that registers well with lorem
ipsum and not just any silly text, and because getting the right
register is not easy for non-native Japanese speakers as well as for us
NJS's translating from English into Japanese, let me follow up.
To those of us who are familiar with 寿限無寿限無, whether one can
actually recite it in its entirety or not (I used to admire those who
could as a kid), the text has a distinct flavor of ポンポコピーのポンポ
コナー (whatever that means <g>). Silly internal usage aside, it's
probably not suitable in a brochure template for a graphic designer.
Sorry if it was too obvious to mention. I couldn't tell.
Mika Jarmusz
Salem, Oregon USA
Stuart Albert
On Nov 12, 5:49 pm, "Brian Watson" <brian.wat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for their feedback. I think what I am going to do is to
> use Wikipedia. Since the brochure is for a fake publishing company, there
> are plenty of articles on authors and writers there. And if I let my
> professor know the source, it's not plagiarism.
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 11:11 AM, Mika Jz <mjz-l...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Simon's Japanese phrasing doesn't give us a clue as to whether his
> > suggestion was tongue-in-cheek or not.
>
> > Since this thread is in search of text that registers well with lorem
> > ipsum and not just any silly text, and because getting the right
> > register is not easy for non-native Japanese speakers as well as for us
> > NJS's translating from English into Japanese, let me follow up.
>
> > To those of us who are familiar with 寿限無寿限無, whether one can
> > actually recite it in its entirety or not (I used to admire those who
> > could as a kid), the text has a distinct flavor of ポンポコピーのポンポ
> > コナー (whatever that means <g>). Silly internal usage aside, it's
> > probably not suitable in a brochure template for a graphic designer.
> > Sorry if it was too obvious to mention. I couldn't tell.
>
> > Mika Jarmusz
> > Salem, Oregon USA
>
> --
> Brian Watsonhttp://www.studiomomo.com
Brian Watson writes:
I guess I would find it unacceptable as true greeking because it didn't have the full range of character scripts. Yes, it can be written with kanji and kana, but not with both hiragana and katakana...
Perhaps I don’t completely understand. If you want all three scripts, couldn’t you do some sequence like いろは…イロハ…伊呂波? You can do as much or as little of the sequences as you like, repeated as many times as necessary.
Would this serve the purpose?
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Orinda, CA, USA
Brian Watson writes:
I guess I would find it unacceptable as true greeking because it didn't have the full range of character scripts. Yes, it can be written with kanji and kana, but not with both hiragana and katakana...
Perhaps I don't completely understand. If you want all three scripts, couldn't you do some sequence like いろは…イロハ…伊呂波 ? You can do as much or as little of the sequences as you like, repeated as many times as necessary.
Would this serve the purpose?
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Orinda , CA, USA
In a 0-order random text, letters are chosen at random. In a 1st-
order random text, letters are chosen based on their frequency of use
(given an existing text). In a 2nd-order random text, letters are
chosen based on the likelihood of following the previous letter (so
if the previous letter is "q", the algorithm would be strongly biased
to pick "u" next). 3rd-order looks at 3-letter strings, and so on. At
4th-order, the random text looks like the language of the source
text--that is, if you started with Italian, you get Italian
gibberish; if you started with English, you get English gibberish.
Around 8th-order, if you start with e.e. cummings, James Joyce, or
Faulkner as the source text, you get something that is recognizably a
product of that author (while not really meaning anything).
There may not be a canonical greeking text in Japanese, but it seems
that something like this would do nicely.
I did find this web gadget--The Shannonizer--which does this for you.
But it doesn't work on Japanese, since it looks for word boundaries.
http://www.nightgarden.com/shannon.htm
Adam Rice | adam...@8stars.org
Austin TX USA | http://www.8stars.org
| Here's a little webpage that works in Safari (and probably other browsers)
| that generates such text.
Hey, that's pretty clever. The output does resemble Japanese text at first
blush but is gibberish if you look carefully. I got it to work fine on IE
(after changing the page encoding to Unicode).
| In the upper script section of the source it should be pretty easy to
| figure out if you'd like to customize it as well.
Maybe I'll ask you some time (when I have to figure it out) where exactly
the source is. I tried my simple expedient of Page > View Source, but no
joy.
Thanks,
Neither
つほのもぬそゅさめ、ら都派野「夜保すんらにせ差氏けねう氏日譜」差派、テルエナにえ区セータルナ擢瀬鵜都ふひや樹課譜課つ保阿氏区鵜留都知そちヨコイきなカネロ、もせ無雲みるのぬゃゅおちれ、へさひ、譜さなゅ。
I think the key is that "Lorem Ipsum" is not English, but is written
with the same fonts as English, so the average English reader (or
client) will not attach any particular emotion to the text. A text
written in gibberish English, however, might cause English clients to
focus on the text rather than the design.
Since no other language besides Japanese can be written in Japanese,
there is no way around this problem. You either have to take your
chances with a gibberish document and hope that the client will get
that you are "greeking the Japanese", or use an actual Japanese text
of some sort. I imagine the choice depends on how confident you are
that your client will understand what you are doing, and how important
it is for the client to focus on the design rather than the text.
By the way, does anyone know why we call it "greeking" when we
generally use a Latin text? Did greeking originally refer to
something illegible that was used as a place holder (like a series of
dashes and dots)?
Shaney.
> Again, if the text has any meaning people tend to focus on the
> content rather than presentation.
This really does happen. Designers will show off a mockup with
meaningful dummy text, and the client will get hung up on the text.
> I suppose if I wanted to make my script more clear that it was
> filler text I could make it output kanji/kana in the same frequency
> but loop through aiueo order instead of picking a random character
> from the set, while periodically inserting smarter punctuation.
What you sent out was perfectly respectable--especially for a first
pass done in your free time. If you could insert a 禁則処理
algorithm, you'd avoid all the obvious problems. Adapting the Nth-
order randomizations that I wrote about upthread might result in even
more convincing-looking random text, although it would need a seed
text rather than hard-coded arrays of characters.
> except that it is almost completely katakana, which doesn't give a
> proper impression of a design's heaviness when filled with text
> that has a greater density of kanji. A person couldn't look at the
> *whole* of a page and get a good feel for what it would look like
> with real text on it.
This BTW is referred to as the page colour.
bye,
P. (^_^)
---
mailto:po...@mac.com
Ma, quando si acquista stati in una provincia disforme di lingua, di
costumi e di ordini, qui sono le difficultà. - Niccolò Machiavelli
> Chris Moore wrote:
>
>> Again, if the text has any meaning people tend to focus on the
>> content rather than presentation.
>
> This really does happen. Designers will show off a mockup with
> meaningful dummy text, and the client will get hung up on the text.
There are also some designers (I read a good piece on this once, maybe on A
List Apart? Zeldman?) who note that if you show endless samples of lorem
ipsum to people, they will cease looking at the text bits at all, and end up
with no sense whatsoever of how it actually feels to read text within the
design. That's a problem. The client gets excited about the pretty colors,
signs off on the thing, and only later realizes how difficult it is to read
120-character lines of 8-point text.
Getting people to focus on content is the end purpose of the website or
print pub; not showing off your CSS or InDesign skills. There's no reason to
remove the step or "actually reading words on the page" from the design
process IMO.
--
Peter Durfee
du...@gol.com
Tokyo
And an interesting site on the history of lorem ipsum text, and a text
generator:
http://www.lipsum.com/
Brian Watson wrote:
> If I remember my history correctly, it was indeed because Greek text was
> used.
Shaney Crawford wrote:
> > By the way, does anyone know why we call it "greeking" when we
> > generally use a Latin text?
- Dan Burgess in Yokohama
-----------------------
Dan Burgess
canuck....@gmail.com
Though of course try not to give them too many such chances. E.g.:
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20071018.html
Darren
Though of course try not to give them too many such chances. E.g.:
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20071018.html
Or if you want something tantalizing similar to Japanese, but not quite, how
about some Okinawan?
Here's the first part of デンサー節 with lines glommed together.
うちなあぬ言葉んかしからぬうちなぐち子孫に継じ行かねなゆみ
うちなぐち語てぃ童ん達に聞かち言ちゃいはんちゃいなゆしどぅ我ねえ願ゆる
おもさうし琉歌組踊民謡あまん世からうやふじぬ ちゅくたる言葉
物語作てぃうちなぐちし書ち留みてぃ世間御真人ぬ肝ぬなぐさみなゆさ
Regards,
Ryan
--
Ryan Ginstrom
trans...@ginstrom.com
http://ginstrom.com/
I think you are on to something...! And we have even more obscure items of this kind at hand, from the period where the Yaeyama people generally did not see themselves as Ryukyuans or Okinawans yet. ;-)
Regards: Hendrik
--
* 南風言語業 *
http://www.paikaji-translation.com/
--