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Nathan McCorkle
Rochester Institute of Technology
College of Science, Biotechnology/Bioinformatics
Uhh, Flash doesn't work so great on linux, are you sure about Air?
-Josh
jordan
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Phil <phil...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Yeah, all the models before peltiers became common had refrigeration
units in them. So they basically weighed as much a mini frig and were
quite large.
-cory
I've been seeing the strangest ads lately.. for mp3-playing
thermocyclers. But a mini fridge thermocycler sounds more enticing.
Grab a cold one while you wait for it to cycle up?
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And those SPAM mails about getting a degree...get one
of those while you wait also...
and the PCR could do yogurt culturing duty with it's hot side
when not busy with a PCR order...
John
It's the right size. Maybe reusing some of their plastic would jump start a prototype.
I'm partial to reusing just the idea of a clear plastic open ended box as
an insulating cover, and the rest from scratch. It's not good looking enough
to want to copy. A readout on a PCR could show a graphic status bar and
some label related to the batch -- it would need to be more than a one liner though.
John
BTW emails to you from jo...@industromatic.com do not get a response. Could they be trapped by a filter?
-Josh
There's no absolute need for a massive block to even
out temperature. Stirred air can do just as well,
then you skip machining and go straight to the advantage of 3D
printing for low volume, and step up in tooling costs
when you want mid volumes of something molded.
MyFan™ MySauna™ MyConvectionOven™ etc.
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I'm guessing the ramp rate would be horrible though, since air has
such a low thermal conductivity compared to aluminum ( air = 0.025
W/(m*K) vs aluminum = 230 W/(m*K) ).
-cory
Hm. I wonder to what extent that affected my success (or lack thereof) with CyclerCan. The sensor readily detected fantastic air temp ramp rates but the heat transfer to the tubes may have lagged significantly.
Then again, the program was stupidly redundant: one minute at each step. I'll be sure to repeat any successful OpenPCR reactions with CyclerCan and see how it runs.
Yes, a heat sink gives you a single point to measure, and thermal delay, as it increases
what you have to heat up, and increases time to heat or cool. That can be simplifying.
Especially if you are trapped in the 1950's controlling with a bi-metal strip thermostat.
But do you want to measure a block? No. You'd like to know the temperature of a vial,
so what you can do is build in a thermocouple surrounded by some typical vial plastic
to physically model the identical vials to control temp. of and be more accurate.
Engineering is balancing cost and performance, and cost up front in design effort
gets spread out over the first production batches, and returned in early selling prices.
It's very legit to spend a little more up front to get lower selling prices with the
same profit (or costs to produce), depending on your viewpoint. Especially
if you can get more performance.
> I believe metal blocks are common because they are a relatively simple way to provide precision
> temperatures.
Precise temperature is possible with a rapidly stirred zone of air having very low mass,
but the low mass means you need smooth, responsive control as well as precision in measuring, or
the temperature might oscillate around the set-point. This is all old old school from
before I learned engineering in the 70's 80's. It's now very easy to do with cheap micros,
cheap analog chips, and aided by slightly more expensive micros, you
can even do the programs in high level language (HLL) instead of C or assembler.
Both responsive control and HLLs are good goals for scientific open hardware, since the
openness lets a module design be reused, and the researcher end users will some of them want
to tweak their gear to become something else. Then the gear makers, like me,
will take that open hardware upgrade and create a new standard instrument or system from
it super-rapido.
> But I agree, they seem like overkill, and an airflow-based convection
> heater could be better (and cheaper).
Much cheaper. The electronics bill of materials for such a module is just $17
including fan and heater. TE coolers could be more, but as far as I've read,
desirable temps for PCR soak cycles are all a good bit above 26
deg C lab room temperature, so the responsive control plus a little robo-actuated-door
to the room ambient air can get you the rapid cool down ramp. The Blocks™
just Block™ you from rapidly ramping temperature. Think about it...
The Blocks™ were just there because the controls used were assuming
no great amount of convection.
On 07/09/2011 01:14 PM, Cory Tobin wrote:
> I'm guessing the ramp rate would be horrible though, since air has
> such a low thermal conductivity compared to aluminum ( air = 0.025
> W/(m*K) vs aluminum = 230 W/(m*K) ).
The aluminum block is not what needs to get hot though - a plastic vial is.
Plastic has low conductivity compared to aluminum. Plastic has some
high heat capacity also, but luckily it is in thin vials. The aluminum is
just another material interface with bad transfer in and out, that is
in the way. I say simplify by reducing the chain of transfer of
heat by one link. Lose the aluminum block.
The "hotter" heat flow chain can be:
heater --> convection forced air --> vial --> solution being processed.
The "colder" heat flow chain can be:
ambient air door --> convection forced air --> vial --> solution being processed.
On 07/09/2011 02:00 PM, Dakota Hamill wrote:
> What about throwing a Peltier cooler on the top as a lid?
Instead you can design air flow around the tops of the vials and insulate the lid well.
Lose the multiple points of control by stirring. Stirring is an old successful way to
even out temperature. The spatial arrangement of vials in the zone of stirred air
can also be designed to let the heat flow in and out of them all at about the same time
by not bunching a lot of them close, and having an edge that is different than the middle.
Space from vial to vial has to be even so air can flow between them and all at once, so not
across rows of them, but from bottom to top -- the lid will be more of a toroidal chimney
returning air to the heater zone, then swirling back under the vials and up through them.
The system case could be a split ring. Split so you twist to open it, rotate back to close
and go. That would be a good approach for 100 vials. For 6 vials, I would use a carousel
to rotate them and be the fan at the same time, and later allow some liquid handling
simplicity. Neither of these fan-based designs need be fast/loud to get the equilibrating needed.
On 07/09/2011 02:52 PM, Mackenzie Cowell wrote:
> In the electroformed copper foil, tight fitting of the sample holder, and uniform and
> controlled thickness is ensured.
This concept of a thin copper heat exchanger for vials is a good one. Using it with
standard vials with no special gluing on prep time is more what I think most people
want though. I bet a one per vial design of copper heat sink could be made that is cheap
and good. They mentioned keeping the thickness exactly the same helped with even heat flow
right at the vials. All that's needed for a one-per-vial heat exchanger design
is how to attach -- some kind of clip is how I think.
John Griessen
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A solid state AC relay wired into the plug socket. I can't recall the number but I gave the part is mentioned in the code for cyclercan.
For a hair dryer you would use a SSR. But that is not the best matched sized way
for such a small load as PCR temperatures -- hair dryers
can easily be hair burners, after all, with 1000 Watts.
If you're serious I'll mail you one big enough for a hair dryer, but
it's not a good development path for an open hardware, manufactured tool.
John
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Harbor Freight also has these:
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-rubberized-heater-with-fan-96144.html
Which I used earlier this year with a custom cardboard manifold to
de-fog a tube with water dripping inside it... I was just varying the
voltage with a knob on a power supply though.
So what is the dev path, John? With Simon's idea, I could tune the
duty-cycle of a hair-drier to find what the max wattage/CFM that a
tube can handle before it starts to melt, right? Is that the right
unit that I want?
>> John
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Excellent suggestion. Amusingly, that's apparently all an AC ssr is anyway, a case-enclosed photocell with an LED on the logic pins.
Art store heat guns are handier for this application. They often come with stands too. Just avoid using flammable materials.