Highway signs
iwasaki
But now for the first time I became aware that each state
had also its individual prose style, made sharply evident
in its highway signs. Crossing state lines one is aware
of this change of language. The New England states use a
terse form of instruction, a tight-lipped, laconic style
sheet, wasting no words and few letters. New York State
shouts at you the whole time. Do this. Do that. Squeeze
left. Squeeze right. Every few feet an imperious command.
In Ohio the signs are more benign. They offer friendly
advice, and are more like suggestions. Some states use a
turgid style which can get you lost with the greatest ease.
There are states which tell you what you may expect to find
in the way of road conditions ahead, while others let you
find out for your self.
That was written in the '60s, and I wonder if it's still
the same. Could you give me some examples of such highway
signs?
--
Nobuko Iwasaki
tony cooper
Steinbeck doesn't give examples, but highway signs are regulated by
the U.S. Department of Transportation and the specifications are set
out in the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices). They're
basically the same in all states. The first MUTCD was published in
1935. The MUTCD was changed in 1961 and again in 1971 with
significant revisions.
Everything from the sign colors to the symbols to the typefaces used
are regulated. You can browse at
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/ser-shs_millennium_eng.htm
Any signs with a state "personality" would be informational signs that
are in addition to standard highway signs.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Steinbeck doesn't give examples, but highway signs are regulated by
> the U.S. Department of Transportation and the specifications are set
> out in the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices).
> They're basically the same in all states. The first MUTCD was
> published in 1935. The MUTCD was changed in 1961 and again in 1971
> with significant revisions.
>
> Everything from the sign colors to the symbols to the typefaces used
> are regulated. You can browse at
> http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/ser-shs_millennium_eng.htm
>
> Any signs with a state "personality" would be informational signs that
> are in addition to standard highway signs.
On the site you point to, at
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/state_info/index.htm
it gives links to the sign info for the various states, which may not
be quite the same as in the MUTCD or each other. This might give the
OP a feel for the differences that exist.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A little government and a little luck
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |are necessary in life, but only a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fool trusts either of them.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
msh...@math.wustl.edu
> But now for the first time I became aware that each state
> had also its individual prose style, made sharply evident
>
> I wonder if it's still the same. Could you give me
> some examples of such highway signs?
I have heard that New York (state) signs are terser than most,
squeezing as much information in as few words and letters as possible,
so as to keep drivers' eyes off the signs as much as possible. Thus,
"fallen rock zone" rather than "falling rock zone" (that's one of the
examples I heard at the time).
Michael Hamm
http://www.math.wustl.edu/~msh210/
Hatunen
Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all, rocks that
have fallen on the road are to be watched out for, while a driver
is scarcely likely to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he
has seen it.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:30:26 -0700, msh...@math.wustl.edu wrote:
>
>>I have heard that New York (state) signs are terser than most,
>>squeezing as much information in as few words and letters as
>>possible, so as to keep drivers' eyes off the signs as much as
>>possible. Thus, "fallen rock zone" rather than "falling rock zone"
>>(that's one of the examples I heard at the time).
>
> Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all, rocks that have
> fallen on the road are to be watched out for, while a driver is
> scarcely likely to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he has
> seen it.
Why do you say that? Braking or swerving to avoid falling rocks isn't
much different from doing the same to avoid animals, children, or
balls. But it certainly helps to be warned that the hillside (or
sheer face) next to the road might be a likely source of such
moving obstacles.
I agree that if it meant "falling" as in "off an overpass", you'd be
unlikely to do much about it, but it usually means bouncing or
rolling.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Of course, over the first 10^-10
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |seconds and 10^-30 cubic
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |centimeters it averages out to
|zero, but when you look in
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |detail....
(650)857-7572 | Philip Morrison
David Burn
news:5kjghaF...@mid.individual.net...
> This is from John Steinbeck's _Travels With Charley_:
> That was written in the '60s, and I wonder if it's still
> the same. Could you give me some examples of such highway
> signs?
This is from Ogden Nash's _Versus_
In between the route marks
And the shaving rhymes,
Black and yellow markers
Comment on the times.
All along the highway
Hear the signs discourse:
Men
SLOW
Working.
Saddle
CROSSING
Horse.
Cryptic crossroad preachers
Proffer good advice,
Helping wary drivers
Keep out of Paradise.
Transcontinental sermons,
Transcendental talk:
Soft
CAUTION
Shoulders.
Cross
CHILDREN
Walk.
Wisest of their proverbs,
Truest of their talk,
Have I found that dictum:
Cross
CHILDREN
Walk.
When Adam took the highway
He left his sons a guide:
Cross
CHILDREN
Walk.
Cheerful
CHILDREN
Ride.
David Burn
London, England
Hatunen
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:30:26 -0700, msh...@math.wustl.edu wrote:
>>
>>>I have heard that New York (state) signs are terser than most,
>>>squeezing as much information in as few words and letters as
>>>possible, so as to keep drivers' eyes off the signs as much as
>>>possible. Thus, "fallen rock zone" rather than "falling rock zone"
>>>(that's one of the examples I heard at the time).
>>
>> Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all, rocks that have
>> fallen on the road are to be watched out for, while a driver is
>> scarcely likely to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he has
>> seen it.
>
>Why do you say that? Braking or swerving to avoid falling rocks isn't
>much different from doing the same to avoid animals, children, or
>balls. But it certainly helps to be warned that the hillside (or
>sheer face) next to the road might be a likely source of such
>moving obstacles.
>
>I agree that if it meant "falling" as in "off an overpass", you'd be
>unlikely to do much about it, but it usually means bouncing or
>rolling.
I have seen many fallen rocks while driving; I have never
actually seen any falling rocks, although certainly the rocks I'd
seen must have fallen at some point.
Robert Bannister
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:30:26 -0700, msh...@math.wustl.edu wrote:
>
>
>>On Sep 9, 7:20 pm, iwasaki wrote, in part:
>>
>>>But now for the first time I became aware that each state
>>>had also its individual prose style, made sharply evident
>>>in its highway signs. <snip>
>>>
>>>I wonder if it's still the same. Could you give me
>>>some examples of such highway signs?
>>
>>I have heard that New York (state) signs are terser than most,
>>squeezing as much information in as few words and letters as possible,
>>so as to keep drivers' eyes off the signs as much as possible. Thus,
>>"fallen rock zone" rather than "falling rock zone" (that's one of the
>>examples I heard at the time).
>
>
> Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all, rocks that
> have fallen on the road are to be watched out for, while a driver
> is scarcely likely to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he
> has seen it.
>
I thought the idea behind those signs was that rocks may fall on your
head and "we" are not going to be held responsible.
--
Rob Bannister
Daniel Damouth
treated to a sign saying "Cruise Ships Use Airport Exit".
Sadly, they got rid of it.
-Ddan Damouth
Richard Maurer
Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all,
rocks that have fallen on the road are to be
watched out for, while a driver is scarcely likely
to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he
has seen it.
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
Why do you say that? Braking or swerving to avoid
falling rocks isn't much different from doing the same
to avoid animals, children, or balls. But it certainly
helps to be warned that the hillside (or sheer face)
next to the road might be a likely source of such
moving obstacles.
I have seen a big boulder fall down a hillside onto a
roadway. It seemed to be in slow motion (we were fairly
far away), taking maybe 10 seconds. Plenty of time to
decide to speed up or stop.
I think that you have to watch for both. The falling ones
are more likely to kill, the fallen ones can just ruin
your car and your day.
The following Canadian study attempts to determine
the risks. They seem to be of the same magnitude.
I think that they underestimate the fallen rock risk,
considering only recently fallen rock. A driver looking
only at the hillside could still run into a rock that
other drivers have been swerving around for an hour.
Assessment of the hazard from rock fall on a highway (1996)
<http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ppv/
RPViewDoc?_handler_=HandleInitialGet&journal=
cgj&volume=34&calyLang=eng&articleFile=t97-009.pdf>
Possibly another study (could not load it) at:
<http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/
722330E4-E25D-4F69-86D8-F67F348233EB/0/
Sections4_5_6_RockfallHist_HwyClos_AvalHaz.pdf>
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
J. J. Lodder
> Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> writes:
>
> > On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:30:26 -0700, msh...@math.wustl.edu wrote:
> >
> >>I have heard that New York (state) signs are terser than most,
> >>squeezing as much information in as few words and letters as
> >>possible, so as to keep drivers' eyes off the signs as much as
> >>possible. Thus, "fallen rock zone" rather than "falling rock zone"
> >>(that's one of the examples I heard at the time).
> >
> > Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all, rocks that have
> > fallen on the road are to be watched out for, while a driver is
> > scarcely likely to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he has
> > seen it.
>
> Why do you say that? Braking or swerving to avoid falling rocks isn't
> much different from doing the same to avoid animals, children, or
> balls. But it certainly helps to be warned that the hillside (or
> sheer face) next to the road might be a likely source of such
> moving obstacles.
>
> I agree that if it meant "falling" as in "off an overpass", you'd be
> unlikely to do much about it, but it usually means bouncing or
> rolling.
Let's see: falling from a 20 m cliffside will take 2 seconds,
with an impact velocity of 20 m/s (72 km/h)
Not much you can do about that.
People on the highway have been killed
by bricks deliberately dropped from an overpass.
(bored youngsters looking for a kick)
You don't stand a chance against that either.
Best,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
R H Draney
>
>J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>>People on the highway have been killed
>>by bricks deliberately dropped from an overpass.
>>(bored youngsters looking for a kick)
>>You don't stand a chance against that either.
>>
>
>thought that this problem didn't get exported from here.
It goes by the name "X-treme Poohsticks"....
(Okay, it doesn't really, but it should)....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> writes:
>>
>> > On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:30:26 -0700, msh...@math.wustl.edu wrote:
>> >
>> >>I have heard that New York (state) signs are terser than most,
>> >>squeezing as much information in as few words and letters as
>> >>possible, so as to keep drivers' eyes off the signs as much as
>> >>possible. Thus, "fallen rock zone" rather than "falling rock
>> >>zone" (that's one of the examples I heard at the time).
>> >
>> > Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all, rocks that
>> > have fallen on the road are to be watched out for, while a driver
>> > is scarcely likely to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he
>> > has seen it.
>>
>> Why do you say that? Braking or swerving to avoid falling rocks
>> isn't much different from doing the same to avoid animals,
>> children, or balls. But it certainly helps to be warned that the
>> hillside (or sheer face) next to the road might be a likely source
>> of such moving obstacles.
>>
>> I agree that if it meant "falling" as in "off an overpass", you'd be
>> unlikely to do much about it, but it usually means bouncing or
>> rolling.
>
> Let's see: falling from a 20 m cliffside will take 2 seconds, with
> an impact velocity of 20 m/s (72 km/h) Not much you can do about
> that.
Really? I would've thought that a two second fall far enough ahead to
impact your car would be something you should be able to react to and
avoid if there's any room for maneuvering. I've reacted to things
dropping off a car or truck ahead of me, which gives considerably less
reaction time than that.
But again, if you see a warning sign, it's typically not talking about
things falling straight down on you. It's warning about loose rocks
on a slope or wall next to the road, which have a tendency to roll,
occasionally onto the road.
> People on the highway have been killed by bricks deliberately
> dropped from an overpass. (bored youngsters looking for a kick) You
> don't stand a chance against that either.
Luckily, your garden variety falling rock doesn't have much of a sense
of aim.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |As the judge remarked the day that
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | he acquitted my Aunt Hortense,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |To be smut
|It must be ut-
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |Terly without redeeming social
(650)857-7572 | importance.
| Tom Lehrer
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
iwasaki
"Evan Kirshenbaum" wrote in message...
> tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Steinbeck doesn't give examples, but highway signs are regulated by
> > the U.S. Department of Transportation and the specifications are set
> > out in the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices).
> > They're basically the same in all states. The first MUTCD was
> > published in 1935. The MUTCD was changed in 1961 and again in 1971
> > with significant revisions.
> >
> > Everything from the sign colors to the symbols to the typefaces used
> > are regulated. You can browse at
> > http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/ser-shs_millennium_eng.htm
> >
> > Any signs with a state "personality" would be informational signs that
> > are in addition to standard highway signs.
Thank you. Then maybe it was those informational signs that
Steinbeck saw in the travels. It's a shame that he didn't give
the examples.
> On the site you point to, at
>
> http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/state_info/index.htm
>
> it gives links to the sign info for the various states, which may not
> be quite the same as in the MUTCD or each other. This might give the
> OP a feel for the differences that exist.
Thank you. Most of the links I tried were not working and most
of the files I tried were not opened, but I was able to see
the warning signs of Ohio. They are like:
BE PREPARED TO STOP
WATCH FOR STOPPED TRAFFIC
WATCH FOR SLOWING VEHICLES
SIGNAL OPERATION CHANGED
GROOVED PAVEMENT
RUMBLE STRIPS
UNEVEN TRACKS
BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD
LEFT TWO LANES CLOSED AHEAD
and so on.
Do they sound like standard signs, or are they like what
Steinbeck described, "In Ohio the signs are more benign.
They offer friendly advice, and are more like suggestions"?
--
Nobuko Iwasaki
Salvatore Volatile
> Steinbeck doesn't give examples, but highway signs are regulated by
> the U.S. Department of Transportation and the specifications are set
> out in the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices). They're
> basically the same in all states. The first MUTCD was published in
> 1935. The MUTCD was changed in 1961 and again in 1971 with
> significant revisions.
>
> Everything from the sign colors to the symbols to the typefaces used
> are regulated.
Sadly, this is true. One can still find, here and there, some old signs
that predate imposition of such regulations (for example, I've seen some
old signs that have white on blue instead of the now-standard
white on green).
--
Salvatore Volatile
Peter Duncanson
Arnow) wrote:
>J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>People on the highway have been killed
>>by bricks deliberately dropped from an overpass.
>>(bored youngsters looking for a kick)
>>You don't stand a chance against that either.
>>
>
>Good grief, has this form of mischief been visited upon you Europeans? I
>thought that this problem didn't get exported from here.
Exported!?
European bored youngsters are just as inventive as North
American bored youngsters.
Even Galileo dropped a stone from the Leaning Tower of Pisa
(allegedly).
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Donna Richoux
> Thank you. Most of the links I tried were not working and most
> of the files I tried were not opened, but I was able to see
> the warning signs of Ohio. They are like:
>
> BE PREPARED TO STOP
> WATCH FOR STOPPED TRAFFIC
> WATCH FOR SLOWING VEHICLES
> SIGNAL OPERATION CHANGED
> GROOVED PAVEMENT
> RUMBLE STRIPS
> UNEVEN TRACKS
> BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD
> LEFT TWO LANES CLOSED AHEAD
>
> and so on.
>
> Do they sound like standard signs,
There's nothing extraordinary or odd about them.
>or are they like what
> Steinbeck described, "In Ohio the signs are more benign.
> They offer friendly advice, and are more like suggestions"?
Yes, in a way. None of your examples are in the form "No XXXX" or "XXX
Only" which would be bossier. They are cautions and useful
information,which is what Steinbeck said.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Oleg Lego
I have noticed when driving in BC and western Alberta, the signs
denoting a "passing lane" when going up a hill are different between
the provinces. In Alberta, they say "Keep Right Except When Passing",
and in BC they say "Slower Traffic Keep Right."
I also noticed that the cars abusing the system in BC by staying in
the left lane, are predominantly Alberta-licensed. Having followed a
few from BC into Alberta, where the signage wording changed, they
began to obey the signs.
It made me wonder if they don't consider themselves "slower traffic",
but have no problem with "except when passing".
J. J. Lodder
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> >
> >> Hatunen writes:
> >>
> >> >msh wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>I have heard that New York (state) signs are terser than most,
> >> >>squeezing as much information in as few words and letters as
> >> >>possible, so as to keep drivers' eyes off the signs as much as
> >> >>possible. Thus, "fallen rock zone" rather than "falling rock zone"
> >> >>(that's one of the examples I heard at the time).
> >> >
> >> > Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all, rocks that have
> >> > fallen on the road are to be watched out for, while a driver is
> >> > scarcely likely to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he has
> >> > seen it.
> >>
> >> Why do you say that? Braking or swerving to avoid falling rocks isn't
> >> much different from doing the same to avoid animals, children, or
> >> balls. But it certainly helps to be warned that the hillside (or
> >> sheer face) next to the road might be a likely source of such
> >> moving obstacles.
> >>
> >> I agree that if it meant "falling" as in "off an overpass", you'd be
> >> unlikely to do much about it, but it usually means bouncing or
> >> rolling.
> >
> >Let's see: falling from a 20 m cliffside will take 2 seconds,
> >with an impact velocity of 20 m/s (72 km/h)
> >Not much you can do about that.
> >
>
> I think you limited the boundary conditions too much, Jan. Most of the
> slides and falls are from rocks rolling and sliding down hill and mountain
> sides. The terminal velocity is greatly reduced by friction and the
> effects of the moments inertia in those instances.
For a rock bouncing down a steep slope
the speed will not much below free fall.
I think Hatunen is right: signs like this
are in practice a warning
that there may be rocks lying on the road.
> This is not to say it
> is easy to escape from such disasters. First one has to notice early on
> that he is in danger and then he can only hope he has sufficient mobility
> to escape the danger zone--provided the hapless chap is capable of making
> a decision to escape along a suitable path.
>
> >People on the highway have been killed
> >by bricks deliberately dropped from an overpass.
> >(bored youngsters looking for a kick)
> >You don't stand a chance against that either.
> >
>
> Good grief, has this form of mischief been visited upon you Europeans?
There has been a case of a woman killed by a dropped paving tile.
There was much media attention about it.
> I thought that this problem didn't get exported from here.
Ah, you are a diffusionist?
(with civilization coming from the USA)
I'm afraid this is a case for independent inventionism,
Jan
Robert Bannister
> iwasaki <pianofo...@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>
>>Thank you. Most of the links I tried were not working and most
>>of the files I tried were not opened, but I was able to see
>>the warning signs of Ohio. They are like:
>>
>>BE PREPARED TO STOP
>>WATCH FOR STOPPED TRAFFIC
>>WATCH FOR SLOWING VEHICLES
>>SIGNAL OPERATION CHANGED
>>GROOVED PAVEMENT
>>RUMBLE STRIPS
>>UNEVEN TRACKS
>>BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD
>>LEFT TWO LANES CLOSED AHEAD
>>
>>and so on.
>>
>>Do they sound like standard signs,
>
>
> There's nothing extraordinary or odd about them.
Don't you think the one about bikes "way ahead" is a bit strange?
--
Rob Bannister
Bob Cunningham
Richoux) said:
> iwasaki <pianofo...@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > Thank you. Most of the links I tried were not working and most
> > of the files I tried were not opened, but I was able to see
> > the warning signs of Ohio. They are like:
> >
> > BE PREPARED TO STOP
> > WATCH FOR STOPPED TRAFFIC
> > WATCH FOR SLOWING VEHICLES
> > SIGNAL OPERATION CHANGED
> > GROOVED PAVEMENT
> > RUMBLE STRIPS
> > UNEVEN TRACKS
> > BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD
> > LEFT TWO LANES CLOSED AHEAD
> >
> > and so on.
> >
> > Do they sound like standard signs,
>
> There's nothing extraordinary or odd about them.
Except "BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD", which seems to mean
"BIKES USING ROAD FAR AHEAD". In the same vein, another
sign might say "BIKES USING ROAD WAY, WAY AHEAD".
I don't doubt that the intended meaning of the sign is
"BIKES USING ROADWAY AHEAD".
--
"How dreary -- to be -- Somebody!
How public -- like a Frog --
To tell one's name -- the livelong June --
To an admiring Bog!" -- Emily Dickinson
R H Draney
>
>On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:33:03 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
>Richoux) said:
>
>Except "BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD", which seems to mean
>"BIKES USING ROAD FAR AHEAD". In the same vein, another
>sign might say "BIKES USING ROAD WAY, WAY AHEAD".
>
>I don't doubt that the intended meaning of the sign is
>"BIKES USING ROADWAY AHEAD".
Right up there with "SLOW CHILDREN AT PLAY"....
Or as we used to say, "what's that in the road, a head?"...r
Bob Cunningham
<dado...@spamcop.net> said:
> Bob Cunningham filted:
> >
> >On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:33:03 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
> >Richoux) said:
> >
> >Except "BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD", which seems to mean
> >"BIKES USING ROAD FAR AHEAD". In the same vein, another
> >sign might say "BIKES USING ROAD WAY, WAY AHEAD".
> >
> >I don't doubt that the intended meaning of the sign is
> >"BIKES USING ROADWAY AHEAD".
>
> Right up there with "SLOW CHILDREN AT PLAY"....
>
> Or as we used to say, "what's that in the road, a head?"...r
Utah highways used to have
"Caution stray cattle drive carefully".
which is sorta funny if you take "stray cattle" to be
vocative.
Amethyst Deceiver
> Bob Cunningham filted:
>>
>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:33:03 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
>> Richoux) said:
>>
>> Except "BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD", which seems to mean
>> "BIKES USING ROAD FAR AHEAD". In the same vein, another
>> sign might say "BIKES USING ROAD WAY, WAY AHEAD".
>>
>> I don't doubt that the intended meaning of the sign is
>> "BIKES USING ROADWAY AHEAD".
>
> Right up there with "SLOW CHILDREN AT PLAY"....
>
> Or as we used to say, "what's that in the road, a head?"...r
HEAVY PLANT CROSSING
Amethyst Deceiver
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> People on the highway have been killed
>> by bricks deliberately dropped from an overpass.
>> (bored youngsters looking for a kick)
>> You don't stand a chance against that either.
>>
>
> Good grief, has this form of mischief been visited upon you
> Europeans? I thought that this problem didn't get exported from here.
It was common enough in the 1940s that it features in a Thomas the Tank
Engine story.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
iwasaki
"Bob Cunningham" wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:33:03 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
> Richoux) said:
>
> > iwasaki <pianofo...@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you. Most of the links I tried were not working and most
> > > of the files I tried were not opened, but I was able to see
> > > the warning signs of Ohio. They are like:
> > >
> > > BE PREPARED TO STOP
> > > WATCH FOR STOPPED TRAFFIC
> > > WATCH FOR SLOWING VEHICLES
> > > SIGNAL OPERATION CHANGED
> > > GROOVED PAVEMENT
> > > RUMBLE STRIPS
> > > UNEVEN TRACKS
> > > BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD
> > > LEFT TWO LANES CLOSED AHEAD
> > >
> > > and so on.
> > >
> > > Do they sound like standard signs,
> >
> > There's nothing extraordinary or odd about them.
>
> Except "BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD", which seems to mean
> "BIKES USING ROAD FAR AHEAD". In the same vein, another
> sign might say "BIKES USING ROAD WAY, WAY AHEAD".
>
> I don't doubt that the intended meaning of the sign is
> "BIKES USING ROADWAY AHEAD".
Oops, sorry, that was my mistyping. It was certainly
"BIKES USING ROADWAY AHEAD".
Ohio's other warning signs are:
TWO WAY OPERATION ENDS 5 MILE(S) [sic, I think]
ALL LANES THRU
NO CENTER LINE
NO EDGE LINES
NO LANE LINE
ON RAMP
NO REENTRY WESTBOUND
WORK IN EXIT LANE
FLAGGER AHEAD
I hope I typed them correctly this time. What does
"flagger ahead" mean? "There's a flag ahead"?
(What kind of flag, then?) "There's a person waiting
for a taxi"?
--
Nobuko Iwasaki
Oleg Lego
A "flagger" (in case your question is serious) is what we would call a
"flagman". The flagman's duty is to control traffic through a road
construction or maintenance area. There are often two of them,
sometimes in radio contact, regulating traffic that must use a single
lane.
tony cooper
>I hope I typed them correctly this time. What does
>"flagger ahead" mean? "There's a flag ahead"?
>(What kind of flag, then?) "There's a person waiting
>for a taxi"?
A "flagger" is an employee of the construction company working on the
road. He or she waves a flag (just a colored strip of cloth) or sign
so on-coming traffic will be aware that they have to slow down through
the construction zone. On two lane highways, the flagger will stop
one lane for a number of cars, and then stop the other lane.
Flagger:
http://www.newsline.dot.state.mn.us/images/03/apr/2-Flagger.jpg
The sign that always seems wrong to me is "Survey Crew Ahead".
http://www.prismsurveying.com/images/survey_crew_ahead.gif I always
expect someone to come up to the car and ask me if I like raisins in
my breakfast cereal or will vote for a particular candidate in the
next election. Instead, it's a crew of workers with surveying
transits and those poles they look at.
http://www.coleman-engineering.com/surveying/images/survey01.jpg
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Mike Lyle
[...]
> The sign that always seems wrong to me is "Survey Crew Ahead".
> http://www.prismsurveying.com/images/survey_crew_ahead.gif I always
> expect someone to come up to the car and ask me if I like raisins in
> my breakfast cereal or will vote for a particular candidate in the
> next election. Instead, it's a crew of workers with surveying
> transits and those poles they look at.
>
> http://www.coleman-engineering.com/surveying/images/survey01.jpg
When told "No right turn 325 yards ahead", I want to retort, "Well, why
tell me, then?" Still more intellectually challenging, in France, home
of empty philosophy, you can get adjacent signs pointing different ways,
one reading "Toutes directions" and the other "Autres directions".
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Utah highways used to have
>
> "Caution stray cattle drive carefully".
>
> which is sorta funny if you take "stray cattle" to be
> vocative.
That's got a couple of other good readings:
Caution! Stray cattle drive carefully.
(Watch out for slow-moving vehicles driven by stray cattle)
Caution stray cattle. Drive carefully.
(Tell stray cattle to be careful. Drive carefully yourself.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This isn't good. I've seen good,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |and it didn't look anything like
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |this.
| MST3K
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
Not a road sign, but as a kid I was mystified by
PLANT ON PREMISES
and
NO PLANT ON PREMISES
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for blueprint. Typically, one
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate
|profundity.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins
(650)857-7572
Barbara Bailey
@mid.individual.net:
> Ohio's other warning signs are:
>
> TWO WAY OPERATION ENDS 5 MILE(S) [sic, I think]
> ALL LANES THRU
> NO CENTER LINE
> NO EDGE LINES
> NO LANE LINE
> ON RAMP
> NO REENTRY WESTBOUND
> WORK IN EXIT LANE
> FLAGGER AHEAD
>
> I hope I typed them correctly this time. What does
> "flagger ahead" mean? "There's a flag ahead"?
> (What kind of flag, then?) "There's a person waiting
> for a taxi"?
A Flagger or Flagman is a man (or a woman) with a warning flag, directing
traffic around an obstruction in the road, or controlling the flow of two-
way traffic through a stretch of road with only one lane due to
construction.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> "iwasaki" <pianofo...@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote in
> news:5kq9kpF50tdvU1 @mid.individual.net:
>
>> I hope I typed them correctly this time. What does "flagger ahead"
>> mean? "There's a flag ahead"? (What kind of flag, then?) "There's
>> a person waiting for a taxi"?
>
> A Flagger or Flagman is a man (or a woman) with a warning flag,
> directing traffic around an obstruction in the road, or controlling
> the flow of two- way traffic through a stretch of road with only one
> lane due to construction.
In California, at least, the "flag" will actually be a hand-held sign
that has a stop sign on one side and an orange "SLOW" sign on the
other. There will be one at each end of a single remaining lane for
traffic, using their signs to ensure that traffic flows in only one
direction at a time.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit
|a piece of the moon to chemical
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |analysis before you could be sure
(650)857-7572 |that it was not made of green
|cheese.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bergen Evans
R H Draney
>
>Not a road sign, but as a kid I was mystified by
>
> PLANT ON PREMISES
>
>and
>
> NO PLANT ON PREMISES
I could never see the sense of "THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED DURING BUSINESS
HOURS", with which I was most familiar at a certain department store...why would
you care, I thought, whether the door was unlocked when your customers were at
their businesses?...wouldn't it be more important that it remain unlocked when
they're *off* work and can come in and shop?...r
Robert Bannister
TRUCKS CROSS HERE
Why are they so angry?
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> The sign that always seems wrong to me is "Survey Crew Ahead".
> http://www.prismsurveying.com/images/survey_crew_ahead.gif I always
> expect someone to come up to the car and ask me if I like raisins in
> my breakfast cereal or will vote for a particular candidate in the
> next election.
You've got it wrong. They want you to inspect the crew.
--
Rob Bannister
Bob Cunningham
RIGHT
TO
KEEP
TRUCKS
That sequence used to appear on Utah highways, maybe still
does. As you approached it, the words were supposed to
appear one at a time starting at "trucks", but I read it
contrarily as "Right to keep trucks" and wondered whose
right to keep trucks was at issue.
R H Draney
>
>
> RIGHT
>
>
>
> TO
>
>
>
> KEEP
>
>
>
> TRUCKS
>
>That sequence used to appear on Utah highways, maybe still
>does. As you approached it, the words were supposed to
>appear one at a time starting at "trucks", but I read it
>contrarily as "Right to keep trucks" and wondered whose
>right to keep trucks was at issue.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this one yet:
http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/~davea/images/casting.jpg
....r
Richard Bollard
wrote:
>Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>>
>>Not a road sign, but as a kid I was mystified by
>>
>> PLANT ON PREMISES
>>
>>and
>>
>> NO PLANT ON PREMISES
>
>I could never see the sense of "THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED DURING BUSINESS
>HOURS", with which I was most familiar at a certain department store...why would
>you care, I thought, whether the door was unlocked when your customers were at
>their businesses?...wouldn't it be more important that it remain unlocked when
>they're *off* work and can come in and shop?...r
Okay, this isn't words but, equally mystifying to me are those
roadside advertisements for caravan parks that have a picture of a
smiling sun on them. The sun always wears sunglasses. Why? It's not as
if the sun is looking into itself. As Shaun Micallef would say "(SFX:
whiplash) Into the bin!".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDjlFwsPkHw
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> Okay, this isn't words but, equally mystifying to me are those
> roadside advertisements for caravan parks that have a picture of a
> smiling sun on them. The sun always wears sunglasses. Why? It's not as
> if the sun is looking into itself. As Shaun Micallef would say "(SFX:
> whiplash) Into the bin!".
One word: Mirror
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> When told "No right turn 325 yards ahead", I want to retort, "Well, why
> tell me, then?" Still more intellectually challenging, in France, home
> of empty philosophy, you can get adjacent signs pointing different ways,
> one reading "Toutes directions" and the other "Autres directions".
I've commented before on the signs, common in the Eastern US, that say
"Reduced Speed Ahead." How do they know?
Mike Lyle
[...]
> RIGHT
>
>
>
> TO
>
>
>
> KEEP
>
>
>
> TRUCKS
>
> That sequence used to appear on Utah highways, maybe still
> does. As you approached it, the words were supposed to
> appear one at a time starting at "trucks", but I read it
> contrarily as "Right to keep trucks" and wondered whose
> right to keep trucks was at issue.
You missed that campaign, then? Some operator in DC with connections to
the railroads raised a health scare, and tried to get a ban through
Congress. The truck farmers inevitably fought for their livelihood, on
slogans such as "*Our* right to keep and breed trucks is *your* right to
be an American"; the most effective, though, was a huge picture of a kid
clasping a seedling truck plant in a pot to his chest, with the speech
balloon "Pry it from my cold, dead hands!"
iwasaki
"tony cooper" wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:06:14 +0900, "iwasaki"
> <pianofo...@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> >I hope I typed them correctly this time. What does
> >"flagger ahead" mean? "There's a flag ahead"?
> >(What kind of flag, then?) "There's a person waiting
> >for a taxi"?
>
> A "flagger" is an employee of the construction company working on the
> road. He or she waves a flag (just a colored strip of cloth) or sign
> so on-coming traffic will be aware that they have to slow down through
> the construction zone. On two lane highways, the flagger will stop
> one lane for a number of cars, and then stop the other lane.
>
> Flagger:
> http://www.newsline.dot.state.mn.us/images/03/apr/2-Flagger.jpg
Thank you. I had checked several dictionaries, and they only
explain "the same as 'flag'" or "a person who stops a taxi",
and I couldn't think of that "flagger" could mean flagman.
I googled the image of "flagger", and in most of the pictures
there, too, flaggers were holding a sign, not a flag, saying
"stop" or "slow". When a flagger here stops cars on two lane
highways, he or she has two flags (real flags): the one for
"stop" is red-color, and the other for "go" is white-color.
Is this color connotation universally understood?
--
Nobuko Iwasaki
tony cooper
Flag (piece of cloth) or sign depends on what is being done to the
roadway. Yesterday, driving down a street near my house, the
construction crew putting in some new sewer pipe a few yards off the
road had a man placed on the road waving a pole with a piece of cloth
on it because the crew was working close to the road for a short
stretch. He was just there to attract the attention of the motorists
to get them to proceed with caution. I didn't notice the color of the
cloth.
A crew sent out to repair a roadway would normally have a two-sided
sign (just "Slow" if the function was to alert, or "Stop" and "(X)" if
the function was to re-route traffic. (I forget what it says for
"(X)")
However, the guy is still a flagman no matter what he's holding. He'd
be considered a flagman even if he was using hand gestures because
"flagman" or "flagger" is a function (in this context) and not a
description.
When you "flag someone down", you are giving them a signal to stop.
The signal is not necessarily given with a flag.
I don't think there's a color rule about cloth in this function.
Truth is, I don't pay that much attention to the object he's holding.
I just automatically have a sense of what he's instructing me to do.
BTW, I have used "he". The "he" is frequently a "she", though.
Oleg Lego
I've never seen a flagger with a white flag in Canada. As for colours,
red is used for 'stop', and green is used for 'go'. White would not be
understood to be 'go'.
Barbara Bailey
news:5kstq8F...@mid.individual.net:
Here ("Here" for me being the American Midwest,) if the flagger is
controlling which direction traffic flows on a single-lane stretch of
roadway, he has a dual-sided sign; one side is a standard stop sign, the
other is a caution-yellow "Slow" sign, and he's almost always working
with a partner at the other end of the stretch with a similar sign.
If he's directing continuous traffic around an obstacle or through a
construction zone, he has an international-orange flag, roughly 18"
square.
If the traffic is continuous and the obstacle is intermittent, (for
example, a piece of heavy machinery that occasionaly moves into the
traffic lane,) he may well have both the sign and the flag.
Hatunen
Or "she". A surprising number of flaggers are women.
Signs used to advise us to watch for the "Flagman".
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Frank ess
Hatunen wrote:
>
> Or "she". A surprising number of flaggers are women.
>
> Signs used to advise us to watch for the "Flagman".
True even in the 50s and 60s when I was a flagger or flagman on too
many occasions, displaying a green "flag" (a wire frame paddle filled
by garden chair webbing) to signify "clear track ahead", with another
in yellow to substitute in case the "clear" became "congested" in some
way.
http://home.san.rr.com/fsheff/photo005.htm
The green was eventually eliminated, someone finally realizing that no
alarm is good news.
One of our number liberated a one-meter-wide roadside sign, black on
yellow, "FLAGMAN AHEAD", and installed it near the apex of Turn One at
Riverside International Raceway shortly before the start of a
prestigious international race. It disappeared and never saw a wheel
turned in anger.
--
Frank ess
Robert Bannister
> I googled the image of "flagger", and in most of the pictures
> there, too, flaggers were holding a sign, not a flag, saying
> "stop" or "slow". When a flagger here stops cars on two lane
> highways, he or she has two flags (real flags): the one for
> "stop" is red-color, and the other for "go" is white-color.
> Is this color connotation universally understood?
>
I can't remember whether I've ever seen actual flags used - maybe a long
time ago - but I'm not at all sure whether the colour combination above
would be universally understood. Red for stop: yes; but most of us, I
think, would expect green for go.
Our guys usually have a single sign with "stop" on one side and "slow"
or "go" on the other. Occasionally, they turn round to talk to a mate,
which can cause confusion.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> "iwasaki" <pianofo...@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote in
>
> If he's directing continuous traffic around an obstacle or through a
> construction zone, he has an international-orange flag, roughly 18"
> square.
What colour is "international-orange"? I wouldn't have a clue what an
orange flag meant, unless possibly "don't run me over".
--
Rob Bannister
Peter Duncanson
The UK equivalent has white lettering GO on green background
and STOP on a red background.
Fourth row here:
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs04.htm
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Oleg Lego
>Barbara Bailey wrote:
>
>> "iwasaki" <pianofo...@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote in
>>
>> If he's directing continuous traffic around an obstacle or through a
>> construction zone, he has an international-orange flag, roughly 18"
>> square.
>
>What colour is "international-orange"?
It's a very bright, high-visibility orange colour, visible in murky
conditions.
> I wouldn't have a clue what an
>orange flag meant, unless possibly "don't run me over".
That's about it. Any traffic passing close by workers needs to be
warned that they are there.
Garrett Wollman
>>What colour is "international-orange"?
>
>It's a very bright, high-visibility orange colour, visible in murky
>conditions.
I think that's what I would call "aviation orange", despite the fact
that I see it as a shade of red. (It actually does look orange close
up: I have in my collection a few odd bits that were once attached to
radio towers, and even though I would swear that the towers are
painted red and white, on close inspection the paint is clearly
orange. I wonder if there's an optical illusion going on here....)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Garrett Wollman
Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all, rocks that
>have fallen on the road are to be watched out for, while a driver
>is scarcely likely to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he
>has seen it.
The fundamental design principles for warning signs are that a sign
should convey factual information about the road or traffic condition
ahead, that information should be relevant to drivers, and the sign
should suggest concrete action the driver can take to reduce the risk
arising from that condition. This is why the old "GO CHILDREN SLOW" /
"SLOW CHILDREN" signage is no longer acceptable, and has been replaced
with (for example) "SPEED LIMIT 25". (That's also why the use of
variable message signs to flash unchanging and unactionable messages
like "OVER THE LIMIT / IN JAIL" is technically prohibited, even though
many states do it.)
Nick Spalding
on Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:51:31 +0100:
Same here in Ireland. The sign is held up by a tripod support, the
direction it faces doesn't have to correspond with how the operator faces.
Quite often they use portable traffic lights instead.
--
Nick Spalding
Jitze
A number of very specific definitions of colors are specified as
standard in the U.S. by OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Act).
These are required to be used in certain situations - besides specifc
shades of blue, red, orange, yellow, green and purple, there is
also one called "black and white".
Samples of each may be seen at
http://www.duron.com/services/oshasafetycolors.asp
(I didn't know that purple designated a radiation hazard,
learn something every day...)
Jitze
Peter Duncanson
Ditto in Northern Ireland.
They seem to be the norm here.
Portable traffic lights have the advantage that they are
fit-and-forget. Unless the stretch of road concerned is very
short, two manually rotated sign boards are required, each
with a fulltime operator. If signalling is required 24 hours
a day regardless of whether work is being done the automatic
electric traffic lights are probably cheaper and certainly
more practical.
iwasaki
"Robert Bannister" wrote in message ...
That's a shame; I was beginning to think that the single-sign
system of "stop" and "slow/go" might be better than the real-flag
system, because some flaggers here cannot handle the flags properly
and drivers sometimes wonder if they mean "stop" or "go".
This is a picture of a flagger in Japan:
http://www.tsukasa-co.jp/img/kei_01.jpg
--
Nobuko Iwasaki
tony cooper
Your Japanese flagger is quite different from ours. In the US, the
flagger would be one of the construction crew that has been chosen by
the foreman to be the flagger. The flagger would be dressed in the
garb of a worker: ordinary work pants and shirt. He or she might
wear a bright orange safety vest for visibility, but not a uniform,
not gloves, and not a helmet.
Often the flagger is one of the crew that is slightly ill, has been
injured recently, or is otherwise incapable that day of manning a
shovel or pick. They've been given "light duty" for the day.
Sometime back I saw a female flagger that was quite pregnant. Someone
decided to let her keep her job on the crew, but assigned her to a
non-physical task.
iwasaki
"tony cooper" wrote in message ...
That picture was in the website of a security company, so the
flagger may look like a guard, but Japanese flaggers are
more or less like that.
> Often the flagger is one of the crew that is slightly ill, has been
> injured recently, or is otherwise incapable that day of manning a
> shovel or pick. They've been given "light duty" for the day.
> Sometime back I saw a female flagger that was quite pregnant. Someone
> decided to let her keep her job on the crew, but assigned her to a
> non-physical task.
I had an impression that it was a heavy task. I have happened to
work with a guard this year at a sport event and had a chance
to talk with him. He belongs to a security company and he goes
to various places he is told to go. I asked him what the most
heavy work was for him, and he told me that it was working at a
tunnel construction site as a flagger at night during wintertime.
--
Nobuko Iwasaki
tony cooper
Depends on how you are using "heavy". Standing there flipping a sign
from "stop" to "go" is not a physically heavy job. It requires
standing in one place for a long period of time, but it's less
physically demanding than swinging a pick or shoveling.
Mentally, it might be a heavy task. The flagman is subject to abuse
by drivers that don't want to be the first one stopped, that don't
want to wait, or are just unhappy at being delayed. The flagman is
standing in the path of traffic and in more danger than the man off to
the side who is swinging a pick. It's also a more boring task.
One summer between college semesters I was a "watcher" for a road,
sidewalk, and sewer pipe construction crew. Union rules required that
a "watcher" be stationed on the ground beside any worker who was
working in a hole over four feet deep. The "watcher" was there to
warn the person in the hole if the sides started to cave in.
After a month of that, I asked to be re-assigned to operating a
jack-hammer to break up the old sidewalks. That was a physically
exhausting job that left me with sore muscles and a sore back. The
"watcher" job, though, was so boring that I couldn't stand it.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> In article <ic6be3tbnc0p69214...@4ax.com>,
> Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>Or it may be an attempt to be pertinent. After all, rocks that have
>>fallen on the road are to be watched out for, while a driver is
>>scarcely likely to be able to dodge a falling rock even if he has
>>seen it.
>
> The fundamental design principles for warning signs are that a sign
> should convey factual information about the road or traffic
> condition ahead, that information should be relevant to drivers, and
> the sign should suggest concrete action the driver can take to
> reduce the risk arising from that condition. This is why the old
> "GO CHILDREN SLOW" / "SLOW CHILDREN" signage is no longer
> acceptable, and has been replaced with (for example) "SPEED LIMIT
> 25".
Huh? That's replacing a a warning about a specific hazard with a
generic speed guideline. I can see combining the two, but I'd much
prefer knowing that there's a specific reason for a slower speed
rather than it simply being the case that people in the neighborhood
don't like the street being used to bypass more congested ones. The
former will tend to put people on their guard and cause them to
actually drive near the posted limit, while the latter will often get
the response of "I'm unlikely to get a ticket if I drive ten MPH
over".
In the case of falling rocks, I'd certainly like to be warned to be on
the lookout for them rather than simply being given an arbitrary slow
speed.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A little government and a little luck
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |are necessary in life, but only a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fool trusts either of them.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Portable traffic lights have the advantage that they are
> fit-and-forget. Unless the stretch of road concerned is very
> short, two manually rotated sign boards are required, each
> with a fulltime operator. If signalling is required 24 hours
> a day regardless of whether work is being done the automatic
> electric traffic lights are probably cheaper and certainly
> more practical.
How does an automatic light controlling a single two-way lane know
when the traffic flowing in one direction has cleared the lane?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The plural of "anecdote"
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is not "data"
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Oleg Lego
>In article <gb2ke3pugdtiu9gte...@4ax.com>,
>Oleg Lego <r...@atatatat.com> wrote:
>>On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:33:07 +0800, Robert Bannister posted:
>
>>>What colour is "international-orange"?
>>
>>It's a very bright, high-visibility orange colour, visible in murky
>>conditions.
>
>I think that's what I would call "aviation orange", despite the fact
>that I see it as a shade of red. (It actually does look orange close
>up: I have in my collection a few odd bits that were once attached to
>radio towers, and even though I would swear that the towers are
>painted red and white, on close inspection the paint is clearly
>orange. I wonder if there's an optical illusion going on here....)
I just had a look at an information page about the Golden Gate Bridge,
http://goldengatebridge.org/research/facts.php , which is painted
International Orange. From this page, I found out the colour is also
called "orange vermilion", and the following:
"Many people ask how to obtain International Orange Paint - it's
easy-your paint store can mix it with the following information:
The PMS code is 173 or the CMYK colors are: C= Cyan: 0%, M =Magenta:
69%, Y =Yellow: 100%, K = Black: 6%"
Hatunen
Portable traffic lights are fine for those places where traffic
control is needed on a 24-hour basis, and are widely used for
that purpose. But flaggers are better where only short periods of
traffic control are needed.
Sometimes pilot vehicles are also used.
Hatunen
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>> Portable traffic lights have the advantage that they are
>> fit-and-forget. Unless the stretch of road concerned is very
>> short, two manually rotated sign boards are required, each
>> with a fulltime operator. If signalling is required 24 hours
>> a day regardless of whether work is being done the automatic
>> electric traffic lights are probably cheaper and certainly
>> more practical.
>
>How does an automatic light controlling a single two-way lane know
>when the traffic flowing in one direction has cleared the lane?
They usually stay red together for a time before one turns green.
This gives the lane time to clear (but a car that tarries for any
reason can cause a mess).
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:37:01 +0900, "iwasaki"
>
>
>
...
> >This is a picture of a flagger in Japan:
>
> >http://www.tsukasa-co.jp/img/kei_01.jpg
>
> Your Japanese flagger is quite different from ours. In the US, the
> flagger would be one of the construction crew that has been chosen by
> the foreman to be the flagger. The flagger would be dressed in the
> garb of a worker: ordinary work pants and shirt. He or she might
> wear a bright orange safety vest for visibility, but not a uniform,
> not gloves, and not a helmet.
>
> Often the flagger is one of the crew that is slightly ill, has been
> injured recently, or is otherwise incapable that day of manning a
> shovel or pick. They've been given "light duty" for the day.
> Sometime back I saw a female flagger that was quite pregnant. Someone
> decided to let her keep her job on the crew, but assigned her to a
> non-physical task.
Around here I often see half the other workers doing less than the
flagger.
--
Jerry Friedman
LFS
> Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>
>>Portable traffic lights have the advantage that they are
>>fit-and-forget. Unless the stretch of road concerned is very
>>short, two manually rotated sign boards are required, each
>>with a fulltime operator. If signalling is required 24 hours
>>a day regardless of whether work is being done the automatic
>>electric traffic lights are probably cheaper and certainly
>>more practical.
>
>
> How does an automatic light controlling a single two-way lane know
> when the traffic flowing in one direction has cleared the lane?
>
It doesn't, AFAIK. My local car journeys have been subjected to a great
many of these lately and I assume that there are time settings on the
lights, which seem to vary quite a lot.
One fairly quiet stretch of road near us has a pavement too narrow for a
push-chair and is frequently used by mothers walking chldren to school,
who have to walk in the road. When it was recently reduced to a single
lane controlled by automatic lights, my car frequently triggered the
green light as I approached but I was compelled to wait for pedestrians
to pass, by which time the light was again red. On one occasion I had to
wait through two timed cycles.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Mike Lyle
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:32:43 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>>
>>> Portable traffic lights have the advantage that they are
>>> fit-and-forget. Unless the stretch of road concerned is very
>>> short, two manually rotated sign boards are required, each
>>> with a fulltime operator. If signalling is required 24 hours
>>> a day regardless of whether work is being done the automatic
>>> electric traffic lights are probably cheaper and certainly
>>> more practical.
>>
>> How does an automatic light controlling a single two-way lane know
>> when the traffic flowing in one direction has cleared the lane?
>
> They usually stay red together for a time before one turns green.
> This gives the lane time to clear (but a car that tarries for any
> reason can cause a mess).
And as Laura implies, they often have traffic sensors: nowadays these
mostly seem to be built in to the lights, rather than the old rubber
tube laid across the road. Some at least of these seem to react to
flashing headlights if something's out of adjustment and the light seems
to be stuck on red.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Eric Schwartz
> A crew sent out to repair a roadway would normally have a two-sided
> sign (just "Slow" if the function was to alert, or "Stop" and "(X)" if
> the function was to re-route traffic. (I forget what it says for
> "(X)")
"Slow", around here.
-=Eric
Barbara Bailey
@mid.individual.net:
The color of the lower bag in this picture:
<http://www.tdink.com/issue05/images/alek/U-BAGS-MEDIUM-AND-LARGE.jpg>
Or, the color co-ordinates are
Hex triplet #FF4F00
RGBB (r, g, b) (255, 79, 0)
HSV (h, s, v) (19°, 100%, 100%)
It's a color that's very hard to miss seeing, and therefore is widely
used for emergency gear, test equipment and signal flags. I don't know
how it got the name "International Orange, though. It's a slightly
redder color than "Blaze Orange" (also called "Safety Orange": Hex
triplet = #FF6600; RGBB (r, g, b)=(255, 102, 0); HSV (h, s, v)= (24°,
100%, 100%)) which is the color of a hunting vest or a traffic sign.
Although, on doing a bit of research, the flagger's flag is more likely
to be safety orange than international orange.
But yes, it's a "SEE ME!" color; the color of the flag itself doesn't
send any message other than "See me -- don't hit me!" The message is in
what gestures the flagger is making with the flag.
Barbara Bailey
news:5kvlujF...@mid.individual.net:
>
> "tony cooper" wrote in message ...
>> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:37:01 +0900, "iwasaki"
>> <pianofo...@mtg.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Robert Bannister" wrote in message ...
>> Often the flagger is one of the crew that is slightly ill, has been
>> injured recently, or is otherwise incapable that day of manning a
>> shovel or pick. They've been given "light duty" for the day.
>> Sometime back I saw a female flagger that was quite pregnant.
>> Someone decided to let her keep her job on the crew, but assigned her
>> to a non-physical task.
>
> I had an impression that it was a heavy task. I have happened to
> work with a guard this year at a sport event and had a chance
> to talk with him. He belongs to a security company and he goes
> to various places he is told to go. I asked him what the most
> heavy work was for him, and he told me that it was working at a
> tunnel construction site as a flagger at night during wintertime.
What's taxing about it is a combination of things, not the least of which
is no real chance to relax and go on autopilot mentally for a while.
They also don't get to sit down, take shelter from the cold, the rain,
the snow, or whatever other unpleasantness the weather throws at them,
and the fact that they're the worker most likely to be hit by a careless
or speeding driver. They also don't get much chance to walk around, but
have to stand more or less in one place for a whole shift.
Skitt
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Barbara Bailey wrote:
>>> If he's directing continuous traffic around an obstacle or through a
>>> construction zone, he has an international-orange flag, roughly 18"
>>> square.
>>
>> What colour is "international-orange"? I wouldn't have a clue what an
>> orange flag meant, unless possibly "don't run me over".
>
> The color of the lower bag in this picture:
> <http://www.tdink.com/issue05/images/alek/U-BAGS-MEDIUM-AND-LARGE.jpg>
> Or, the color co-ordinates are
> Hex triplet #FF4F00
> RGBB (r, g, b) (255, 79, 0)
> HSV (h, s, v) (19°, 100%, 100%)
>
> It's a color that's very hard to miss seeing, and therefore is widely
> used for emergency gear, test equipment and signal flags. I don't know
> how it got the name "International Orange, though. It's a slightly
> redder color than "Blaze Orange" (also called "Safety Orange": Hex
> triplet = #FF6600; RGBB (r, g, b)=(255, 102, 0); HSV (h, s, v)= (24°,
> 100%, 100%)) which is the color of a hunting vest or a traffic sign.
>
> Although, on doing a bit of research, the flagger's flag is more
> likely to be safety orange than international orange.
>
> But yes, it's a "SEE ME!" color; the color of the flag itself doesn't
> send any message other than "See me -- don't hit me!" The message is
> in what gestures the flagger is making with the flag.
That reminds me -- way back, in 1975, I had my off-white VW Beetle repainted
hip-hugger orange (it needed a bit of work after I had hit a deer in the
Santa Cruz mountains). That's pretty much the color on that bag in your
picture. The consequence was that I got two speeding tickets within two
weeks, not driving any differently than I had driven before on the same
route. I guess I was seen, but by the wrong people.
--
Skitt
sometimes wishing to be invisible
Peter Duncanson
The job might be made easier by this system of STOP/GO
boards:
http://www.amberlangis.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=70
Robo's - Stop/Go Signs
Remotely controlled Stop/Go temporary traffic control
system.
The complete system comprises two identical base units
and one hand-held radio remote control unit with battery
belt power pack and charger.
Just one operator is required to manage and control the
traffic flow at both ends of the work zone.
The whole system is compact enough to be carried in a
small commercial vehicle.
Two-way "Robo" sets are supplied with:
* Base unit x 2
* Remote control x 1
* Charger x 1
* Stop/Go board x 2
* TCA sign x 2
Robert Bannister
> Portable traffic lights are fine for those places where traffic
> control is needed on a 24-hour basis, and are widely used for
> that purpose. But flaggers are better where only short periods of
> traffic control are needed.
Plus, in many cases, the actual area keeps shifting on a daily or even
hourly basis. Of course, there are some authorities that simply shut
down a lane for distances of 10 km or more for weeks at a time, but I
call that bloody-mindedness.
Particularly annoying are 40 kph (or less) speed limits at times when
not a single worker is around and the roadway is in no way dangerous -
that is supposed to be against the law here, but is often ignored.
--
Rob Bannister
W Australia
Robert Bannister
>
> The job might be made easier by this system of STOP/GO
> boards:
> http://www.amberlangis.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=70
>
> Robo's - Stop/Go Signs
>
> Remotely controlled Stop/Go temporary traffic control
> system.
> The complete system comprises two identical base units
> and one hand-held radio remote control unit with battery
> belt power pack and charger.
> Just one operator is required to manage and control the
> traffic flow at both ends of the work zone.
It seems to me that the operator still has to stand in the same place,
with little chance to jump up and down when it's cold or to get in the
shade when it's hot. Also, there would be few sites where he would be
able to see the entire stretch of road, especially with construction
vehicles constantly moving about. I have seen things like that, and they
did seem to work well, but I can't see them replacing the "stop-go man"
everywhere.
--
Rob Bannister
Lyndon
"Amethyst Deceiver" <sp...@lindsayendell.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5kq262F...@mid.individual.net...
>R H Draney wrote:
>> Bob Cunningham filted:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:33:03 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
>>> Richoux) said:
>>>
>>> Except "BIKES USING ROAD WAY AHEAD", which seems to mean
>>> "BIKES USING ROAD FAR AHEAD". In the same vein, another
>>> sign might say "BIKES USING ROAD WAY, WAY AHEAD".
>>>
>>> I don't doubt that the intended meaning of the sign is
>>> "BIKES USING ROADWAY AHEAD".
>>
>> Right up there with "SLOW CHILDREN AT PLAY"....
>>
>> Or as we used to say, "what's that in the road, a head?"...r
>
> HEAVY PLANT CROSSING
>
>
That works even better in Wales. 'Plant' is the Welsh word for 'children'.
My favourite from the UK though has to be "NO RIGHT TURN 50 YDS AHEAD". I
can't help wondering about all the places that you could put signs like "NO
TRAFFIC LIGHTS AHEAD" or "NO T-JUNCTION AHEAD"
--
Lyndon
Peter Moylan
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>> Not a road sign, but as a kid I was mystified by
>>
>> PLANT ON PREMISES
>>
>> and
>>
>> NO PLANT ON PREMISES
>
> I could never see the sense of "THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED DURING
> BUSINESS HOURS", with which I was most familiar at a certain
> department store...why would you care, I thought, whether the door
> was unlocked when your customers were at their businesses?...wouldn't
> it be more important that it remain unlocked when they're *off* work
> and can come in and shop?...r
A common sign here is "This door is alarmed". I've often been tempted
to cover it with a sign saying something like "This door is seriously
upset".
Now that I think of it, such signs are most common at shopping centres
where the toilets are disabled.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>> When told "No right turn 325 yards ahead", I want to retort, "Well,
>> why tell me, then?" Still more intellectually challenging, in
>> France, home of empty philosophy, you can get adjacent signs
>> pointing different ways, one reading "Toutes directions" and the
>> other "Autres directions".
>
> I've commented before on the signs, common in the Eastern US, that
> say "Reduced Speed Ahead." How do they know?
On Thursday evening I was stuck in traffic in Sydney - part of a 7-hour
trip - and averaging about 5 km/h. On a toll road! (There ought to be
a refund of the toll in such conditions.) At the end of the toll road,
where we were about to enter an "ordinary" road, there were large signs
saying "Slow down". From 5 km/h to what?
To add insult to injury, I'd just paid for and received the thing called
an E-tag that was supposed to let me go through the toll points without
stopping. It turned out that the fastest traffic was that going through
the single "cash only" lane.
Peter Moylan
> On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:45:38 +0200 (CEST), Barbara Bailey
> <rabr...@yaho.comm> wrote:
>> If the traffic is continuous and the obstacle is intermittent, (for
>> example, a piece of heavy machinery that occasionaly moves into
>> the traffic lane,) he may well have both the sign and the flag.
>
> Or "she". A surprising number of flaggers are women.
>
> Signs used to advise us to watch for the "Flagman".
The Australian signs used to say "Men at work". After too many jokes
about road workers dropping off to sleep and falling off their shovels,
this was changed to "Workmen". After a few other variants, it settled
down to something like "Roadwork". These days, the sign is often
accompanied by one saying "Speed zones are enforceable". That, I assume,
was introduced because most drivers were ignoring the temporary speed
limit signs indicating a low speed.
tony cooper
<pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote:
>The Australian signs used to say "Men at work". After too many jokes
>about road workers dropping off to sleep and falling off their shovels,
>this was changed to "Workmen". After a few other variants, it settled
>down to something like "Roadwork". These days, the sign is often
>accompanied by one saying "Speed zones are enforceable". That, I assume,
>was introduced because most drivers were ignoring the temporary speed
>limit signs indicating a low speed.
It's common in Florida to see a sign that says "Fines doubled when
workmen present". It is often noted that few tickets would be doubled
if the signs said "Fines doubled when men working".
Frank ess
I reckon the most potent sign in California is the one announcing,
"Fines doubled in construction zones".
--
Frank ess
Garrett Wollman
Frank ess <fr...@fshe2fs.com> wrote:
>I reckon the most potent sign in California is the one announcing,
>"Fines doubled in construction zones".
I've seen several variations on that. I think here it says "IT'S NOW
THE LAW / FINES DOUBLED / IN WORK ZONES". Said law only passed
recently here when the chairman of the public-safety committee in the
state legislature went on to greener pastures. That chairman had held
hearings on what are called "police details" here[1] (essentially
police officers acting as flaggers since they have nothing better to
do and the pay is better than for actual police work), before which
the head of the State Police union testified that bored, overpaid cops
chatting with the construction foreman while making a total hash of
traffic made Massachusetts' work zones the safest in the nation.
Of course, anyone who drove in Connecticut during the 1980s will
recall "ROAD LEGALLY CLOSED / USE AT YOUR OWN RISK / STATE LIABILITY
LIMITED / four more lines of text in small print that could not
possibly be read by motorists passing at 60 mi/h". They still have
these signs at the beginnings of work zones, but they say something
less ominous now. (I suspect there was a court case.)
-GAWollman
[1] ObAUE: when I first moved here, this was a big issue, all over the
local news. I couldn't figure out why people thought painting stripes
on police cars was so important.
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Peter Moylan
> Murray Arnow <ar...@iname.com> wrote:
>
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> People on the highway have been killed by bricks deliberately
>>> dropped from an overpass. (bored youngsters looking for a kick)
>>> You don't stand a chance against that either.
>>>
>> Good grief, has this form of mischief been visited upon you
>> Europeans?
>
> There has been a case of a woman killed by a dropped paving tile.
> There was much media attention about it.
I think it was only a week ago that someone here was convicted of
manslaughter after succeeding in getting his stone through the rear
window of a car. (If it had been the front window, there probably would
have been a multi-car pile-up. He was lucky that he only killed one
passenger.) However, the problem has existed here for so long that a
great many overpasses have huge mesh fences to stop this sort of thing.
Peter Moylan
> In the case of falling rocks, I'd certainly like to be warned to be
> on the lookout for them rather than simply being given an arbitrary
> slow speed.
Except that drivers watching the top of the cutting are less likely to
see the fallen rocks (or curve in the road, or slow children) right in
front of them.
One thing that Australia (and, I gather, the USA) has not yet achieved
is consistency between the states. In the past we had numerous
collisions caused by the fact that one state had a "give way when
turning left" rule and an adjacent state had it as "give way when
turning right". (Imagine two cars facing each other, both about to turn
into the same street. Who goes first?) It took many years before even
that small but important discrepancy was straightened out, because
neither state wanted to change its rules. In theory, if you're licensed
to drive in one state you should be competent to drive in any state, but
that's not true when the rules change each time you cross the border.
It's interesting that Europe - where the negotiations have to be between
nations rather than mere subdivisions of a nation - is moving faster in
this respect.
A few years ago, on vacation, I was driving roughly parallel to a state
border, on a road that crossed the border now and then. It was at least
distracting to find that one state had falling rocks and the other had
fallen rocks. A minor point, but even minor distractions can affect a
driver's reaction time.
John Holmes
>
> A common sign here is "This door is alarmed".
Haven't you noticed? They now all say "This door is alert", and are
covered with fridge magnets.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Mike Lyle
[...]
> The Australian signs used to say "Men at work". After too many jokes
> about road workers dropping off to sleep and falling off their
> shovels, this was changed to "Workmen". After a few other variants,
I've heard reference to the number of breast-fed shovels at road works.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On 15/09/07 02:30, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> In the case of falling rocks, I'd certainly like to be warned to be
>> on the lookout for them rather than simply being given an arbitrary
>> slow speed.
>
> Except that drivers watching the top of the cutting are less likely
> to see the fallen rocks (or curve in the road, or slow children)
> right in front of them.
In practice it's a warning to look for rocks in the road as well as to
pay special attention to movement spotted by your peripheral vision on
that side. And, of course, to slow down a bit.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |People think it must be fun to be a
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |super genius, but they don't
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |realize how hard it is to put up
|with all the idiots in the world.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
Leslie Danks
> Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> writes:
>
>> On 15/09/07 02:30, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
>>> In the case of falling rocks, I'd certainly like to be warned to be
>>> on the lookout for them rather than simply being given an arbitrary
>>> slow speed.
>>
>> Except that drivers watching the top of the cutting are less likely
>> to see the fallen rocks (or curve in the road, or slow children)
>> right in front of them.
>
> In practice it's a warning to look for rocks in the road as well as to
> pay special attention to movement spotted by your peripheral vision on
> that side. And, of course, to slow down a bit.
The trouble with slowing down is that you spend longer as a target for a
particular falling rock. If you're just worried about rocks, the safest
procedure would be to drive at the maximum speed that still enables you to
dodge the rocks already lying on the road.
--
Les
Wood Avens
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>In practice it's a warning to look for rocks in the road as well as to
>pay special attention to movement spotted by your peripheral vision on
>that side. And, of course, to slow down a bit.
I generally have the opposite impulse, to speed up instead, in order
to get past the area as quickly as possible and thus minimise the risk
of being hit by a falling rock.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Robin Bignall
Ignore such limits at your peril, here. About three years ago
they were widening the Heathrow section of the M25 and had a 40
mph speed limit on various long sections coned off to two lanes.
I was doing 40, a guy overtook me at maybe 60 or 70 around three
in the morning when there was very little traffic, and a radar
gun flashed at the instant he came past me. They'd mounted one in
the middle of the roadworks. This is probably routine during
construction on motorways.
--
Robin
Herts, England
Robin Bignall
I wonder we don't have them here. During the miners' strike, a
couple of striking miners dropped a concrete slab from a motorway
bridge. It went through the windscreen of a taxi taking a
non-striking miner to work and killed the driver.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/16/newsid_2512000/2512469.stm
--
Robin
Herts, England
HVS
I'm certain I've seen some mesh/enclosures on some UK overpasses --
not often, and I can't remember where, but somewhere.
(Howzat for an authoritative citation of one's sources?)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> Ignore such limits at your peril, here. About three years ago
> they were widening the Heathrow section of the M25 and had a 40
> mph speed limit on various long sections coned off to two lanes.
> I was doing 40, a guy overtook me at maybe 60 or 70 around three
> in the morning when there was very little traffic, and a radar
> gun flashed at the instant he came past me. They'd mounted one in
> the middle of the roadworks. This is probably routine during
> construction on motorways.
If you'd been RJ Valentine, you'd have received the ticket.
Frank ess
I believe this theory has been scientifically tested with regard to
raindrops. Rain drops. Fallen water. Falling water. Hmph.
--
Frank ess
Leslie Danks
Not quite the same, though. Except at the very beginning or very end of a
shower of rain, there are many rain drops within one car length and roughly
the same number within the next car length. If that many rocks are falling,
there's not a lot you can do; if just the occasional rock is falling, speed
is your friend (IMO).
--
Les