To JMS: Thoughts on Gravity in B5
Erik Cunha
To JMS, you're not alone.
You are not the only one who stays up at night thinking about Babylon 5.
I work late evenings and do not leave normally until one in the morning,
but I wanted to show "midnight" to a co-worker, so we didn't leave until
two. I finially get home, lay down in bed, and promptly can't sleep. My mind
keeps dwelling on concerns that I had from the pilot, namely that B5 spins
too fast to make an adequate simulation of gravity. When I see what I
think might be problems in other shows, I just shrug it off and say they
goofed, but I couldn't do that with "midnight".
3:00 AM I am laying in the dark doing "thought experiments" about moving
in B5.
3:30 AM I have come to a point where I have to know the radius and spin
rate of B5. I consider getting up and putting in my tape.
3:45 AM I have figured a way to estimate the spin rate without getting
up, by performing my "thought experiments" where the gravity is 1 g, and
assuming a radius so large that it can't possibly be an overestimation.
(.8 km actually)
4:00 AM I have cranked the math and have been crushed. I had
conclusively proved that B5 is unworkable as a real station.
4:01 AM I am elated. I realized that I had screwed up big time, so big
time in fact, that the effect which I thought made B5 unworkable was in
fact the thing holding the people to the floor. WHAP!
4:15 AM I am still thinking about Babylon 5, and continue to do so untill
7:00 AM !
I hope that the fact Babylon 5 spins rapidly will be addressed in the
series. Though the effects will be subtle they would be easily noticeable
to anyone on the station who had spent any time planet bound. For example:
1) Imagine a unicycle balanced upside down on the floor. The wheel just
happens to be perpendicular to the axis of the station (that is, it would
look like a wheel within a wheel if you took a cross section). A person
standing in the room notices that the wheel is slowly, steadily spinning.
In fact, it makes a complete revolution each time the station makes a
complete revolution. The wheel will never stop spinning.
This is in fact because the wheel is perfectly stationary and the floor is
doing the spinning.
(It also makes an interesting metaphor: "On Babylon 5, wheels within
wheels never stop spinning.")
2) Now imaging two people in the garden. One has a jet pack and two
water balloons and is flying around near the axis, while another is zen
skinny dipping and watching his friend from the stone garden. The guy
with the jet pack gets a mischevious glint in his eye and throws one of
his water balloons directly at the guy on the "ground". He sees it fly
straight away, but becomes concious of the stations spin, and he realizes
his mistake. He percieves the balloon moving straight, while he sees his
target move out from under it. Live and learn.
His friend on the ground however, still having the perception of gravity
and fairly used to having everything in his line of sight also being
affected by gravity is perplexed. He sees the balloon start out straight
for him, but then begin to curve away, curving faster as it approaches the
"ground".
His friend sees his confusion and decides to really shake him up. He flys
down low, but remember that he is free of the station and no longer
spinning with it. He flies within a few meters of the ground and simply
releases the second balloon. He then flies off. The balloon hangs
weightless in space, but the friend on the ground sees the balloon
swooping along near the ground as though it had a mind of its own.
Convinced he is losing his, he decides to leave the Garden.
Corrolis force is strong enough to be seen on Earth, on B5, it would be
much stronger. I hope that the show acknowledges this soon.
-- Erik Cunha, going to bed
colin roald
> ecu...@well.sf.ca.us (Erik Cunha) writes:
> |> 2) Now imaging two people in the garden. One has a jet pack and two
> |> water balloons and is flying around near the axis,
> OOOHHHH!! I WANNA DO THIS !!!! ME ME ME !!! MY TURN !!!! I SAID IT FIRST !
> but I also want more than just _two_ water balloons...
[much anarchist free-think deleted.]
*rotfl* i like the way you think. :-]
> Yeah, I know what you're thinking- JMS gives us this great show with an
> awesome storyline and marvelous effects and these clowns want to play
> with WATER BALLOONS...
well, sheesh. what's the point of having such a cool future if nobody
ever has any fun.
seriously, the "No Cute Kids" rule is excellent, but i hope we can
distinguish Cute Kids from the real kind, and show (once in a while,
in the background, in throwaway scenes) that people do still have
families and normal lives.
--
colin roald | damn you inanimate objects! you mock me by your silence. (servo)
Dan Wood
>1) Imagine a unicycle balanced upside down on the floor. The wheel just
>happens to be perpendicular to the axis of the station (that is, it would
>look like a wheel within a wheel if you took a cross section). A person
>standing in the room notices that the wheel is slowly, steadily spinning.
>In fact, it makes a complete revolution each time the station makes a
>complete revolution. The wheel will never stop spinning.
Rumour has that this is going to be the main story line in "Chrysalis."
Sounds like _fascinating_ TV. :)
>2) Now imaging two people in the garden. One has a jet pack and two
^^^^^^^
What are you, an Amiga or something? :)
--
----------------------------
Dan Wood, dan...@netcom.com
----------------------------
Ken Arromdee
colin roald <co...@callisto.pas.rochester.edu> wrote:
>seriously, the "No Cute Kids" rule is excellent, but i hope we can
>distinguish Cute Kids from the real kind, and show (once in a while,
>in the background, in throwaway scenes) that people do still have
>families and normal lives.
Here's a simple definition.
Cute Kids are kids who are there for purposes of audience identification, to
appeal to kids watching and to kiddify the show.
Kids can be annoying and still count as "cute kids".
Wesley Crusher was the classic example.
I see no problem with non-cute kids on the show.
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
ObYouKnowWho Bait: Stuffed Turkey with Gravy and Mashed Potatoes
"There are no good or evil plants. There are only... plants." --Ficus (Quark)
Leslie A Tyrrell
|> I hope that the fact Babylon 5 spins rapidly will be addressed in the
|> series. Though the effects will be subtle they would be easily noticeable
|> to anyone on the station who had spent any time planet bound. For example:
I've been a bit worried about this myself, but I can live with it- haven't
done the math to figure out if everything checks out ok. I'm actually more
concerned about getting dizzy from what _seems_ to be a rapid
rate of rotation ( merry-go-round syndrome ). Not terribly concerned,
mind you- it will be some time before I can afford to visit. Probably
have to wait till retirement...
|> 1) Imagine a unicycle balanced upside down on the floor. The wheel just
|> happens to be perpendicular to the axis of the station (that is, it would
|> look like a wheel within a wheel if you took a cross section). A person
|> standing in the room notices that the wheel is slowly, steadily spinning.
|> In fact, it makes a complete revolution each time the station makes a
|> complete revolution. The wheel will never stop spinning.
|>
|> This is in fact because the wheel is perfectly stationary and the floor is
|> doing the spinning.
Almost- that pesky friction will intervene and "spin-up" the unicycle's
wheel to match the station's rate of rotation. Personally, there are
times when I'd rather not have that stuff lying around the house- no
telling what the kids are going to gum up with it. But what can you do?
|> (It also makes an interesting metaphor: "On Babylon 5, wheels within
|> wheels never stop spinning.")
until bureaucracy intervenes...
|> 2) Now imaging two people in the garden. One has a jet pack and two
|> water balloons and is flying around near the axis,
OOOHHHH!! I WANNA DO THIS !!!! ME ME ME !!! MY TURN !!!! I SAID IT FIRST !
but I also want more than just _two_ water balloons...
|> while another is zen
|> skinny dipping and watching his friend from the stone garden.
HEH HEH... sitting duck...
|> The guy
|> with the jet pack gets a mischevious glint in his eye and throws one of
|> his water balloons directly at the guy on the "ground". He sees it fly
|> straight away
Not quite- the air within the station, which we _might_ be able to model
successfully as undergoing "solid-body" rotation ( as though it were
say, jello, rather than a gas ) due to the viscosity ( ok, if you have
doubts about this, try this: center a can or bowl of water on your extremely
expensive ( but now useless due to CD technology ) stereo turntable, then
start it up: at first, only the water near the walls of the bowl will be
rotating with the bowl, but this will slowly spread towards the center
until eventually all the water is spinning as though it were a solid body )
)?>>()()
damn... lost track of the parenthesis's.... ok, here we go: the point is
the air will be blowing on the balloon, and will cause it to diverge from
your hypothetical straight-line. But I think the guy with the rocket pack
is still gonna miss on that first try, though... it's quite a toss from the
axis to the garden, hard to be accurate... I'd be kinda worried that you
might inadvertantly hit someone(thing??) else, say Vir... oh well...
One RAMA-fication of this ( hee hee ) is that I think it would be hard
to coast near the axis without needing to do station-keeping of some
sort- the air will keep blowing you away, with an effect that will get
stronger the farther you get from the axis. ( should be fairly simple
to simulate this- use a simple drag model and fairly straightforward
dynamics ). Or you could strap on some N*ke's and Just Do It....
whatever works best for you, I guess. ( think about this: is it possible
to run fast enough in the direction opposite the spin, such that you become
weightless ? Within the constraints of human physiology and what
we can determine about the station ? )
|> but becomes concious of the stations spin, and he realizes
|> his mistake. He percieves the balloon moving straight, while he sees his
|> target move out from under it. Live and learn.
That being in the garden's gonna get it now...
|> His friend on the ground however, still having the perception of gravity
|> and fairly used to having everything in his line of sight also being
|> affected by gravity is perplexed.
No he isn't... the **&^^&* SOB is laughing ?it's? *ss off... ?it's? in for it
now!
|> He sees the balloon start out straight
|> for him, but then begin to curve away, curving faster as it approaches the
|> "ground".
|>
|> His friend sees his confusion and decides to really shake him up. He flys
|> down low, but remember that he is free of the station and no longer
|> spinning with it.
That damn pesky air friction, though.... forgets about it and doesn't notice
that he's slowly being spun-up, drifting lower, gradually, not realizing it
because he's got his sights on this clown in the garden laughing at him,
forgets about the trees... THE TREES !!!! WHAP! CRASH !! SCRUNCH!!!
Uh, Commander Sinclair... um how are you sir beautiful day here isnt it gosh
its sorta late gotta meet somebody i'll be on my way
|> He flies within a few meters of the ground and simply
|> releases the second balloon. He then flies off. The balloon hangs
|> weightless in space, but the friend on the ground sees the balloon
|> swooping along near the ground as though it had a mind of its own.
|> Convinced he is losing his, he decides to leave the Garden.
What? Running home to MOMMY?? CHICKEN !!!! CLUCK CLUCK !!! HAW H...
WHAP!!! CRASH!!! SCRUNCH !!!!
|>
|> Corrolis force is strong enough to be seen on Earth, on B5, it would be
|> much stronger. I hope that the show acknowledges this soon.
|>
|> -- Erik Cunha, going to bed
Hey Erik! DUCK !!!!! 8^)
Les Tyrrell, la...@iastate.edu
No flame intended, just amused with the thought experiment ( hey, I'm
broke and this is all I get to do for fun on weekends )
Stuart Ferguson
| 1) Imagine a unicycle balanced upside down on the floor. The wheel just
| happens to be perpendicular to the axis of the station (that is, it would
| look like a wheel within a wheel if you took a cross section). A person
| standing in the room notices that the wheel is slowly, steadily spinning.
| In fact, it makes a complete revolution each time the station makes a
| complete revolution. The wheel will never stop spinning.
I think you can perform this experiment on earth. Don't pendulums
rotate once every twenty-four hours? A correctly oriented flywheel
certainly would.
I also don't think you would get dizzy spinning once per minute. Just
imagine standing on a turntable attached to the second-hand of a clock.
--
Stuart Ferguson (s...@netcom.com)
Midnight is at hand.
Robert Winkler
Sorry for butting in, but...
-> Here's a simple definition.
->
-> Cute Kids are kids who are there for purposes of audience
-> identification, to appeal to kids watching and to kiddify the show.
I dunno... When I was a kid (well... after passing 12), I hated only 2
things in movies: cheap f/x, & characters of my age. I didn't go to ANY
movie whose protagonist was under 20.
I know quite a few kids now, but in my experience they don't really like
SF shows with kid characters. Other movies - all right, but not SF.
I think this `kiddifying' process remained behind from the '50s-'60s,
when Hollywood decided that a) not normal adult watches sci-fi, & b)
kids want to see kids.
Take care
Robert
Hugh Ayers
Leslie A Tyrrell <la...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>I'm actually more
>concerned about getting dizzy from what _seems_ to be a rapid
>rate of rotation ( merry-go-round syndrome ). Not terribly concerned,
>mind you- it will be some time before I can afford to visit. Probably
>have to wait till retirement...
Never happen. WHy? because our senses don't notice movement, just
changes to that movement. In a centrifical (sp?) environment, the
walls become the ground. Your senses believe it, totally. The reason
this doesn't happen on earth is that there is this little bit of a
LARGER gravity well interfering.
Ok, to be technical, the human brain uses two things to judge speed
and motion. THe first system is the inner ear. These consist of
a series of 3 dimensional accelerometers. THey only notice you are
moving if you change the motion. (This includes spinning...you don't
get dizzy until you stop, or slow down or go faster.) Why? because of
the way they work. If you don't believe me, first check your Anat and Phys
textbooks, then go ask the prof in the dept of Psycholgy who teaches
perception. The second system to judge motion is sight. And on a
station, where everything is moving the same way about the same axis at the
same speed, there are NO visual cues to say that you are not standing still
(unless you are on a car or something moving inside the station.)
So... there would possibly be only a little bit of dizzyness when coming
onto the station, but only if the ship you just left did not synch
rotation before docking.
>
>Yeah, I know what you're thinking- JMS gives us this great show with an
>awesome storyline and marvelous effects and these clowns want to play
>with WATER BALLOONS...
ROTFL
P.S. I love your post Les.
Hugh A. Ayers
--
"When you meet a stobor in the dark what do you do? Hugh A. Ayers
Spit in its face? Or ask it to waltz?"-R.A.H. aye...@ucs.orst.edu
--My keyboard and I are fighting for control of my computer.
--Please assume any typo is a casualty of war.
richard yen-ching chang
[merry go-round syndrome deleted]
[rufutation (grammer?sp?) deleted]
>Ok, to be technical, the human brain uses two things to judge speed
>and motion. THe first system is the inner ear. These consist of
>a series of 3 dimensional accelerometers. THey only notice you are
>moving if you change the motion. (This includes spinning...you don't
>get dizzy until you stop, or slow down or go faster.) Why? because of
>the way they work. If you don't believe me, first check your Anat and Phys
>textbooks, then go ask the prof in the dept of Psycholgy who teaches
>perception. The second system to judge motion is sight. And on a
>station, where everything is moving the same way about the same axis at the
>same speed, there are NO visual cues to say that you are not standing still
>(unless you are on a car or something moving inside the station.)
>So... there would possibly be only a little bit of dizzyness when coming
>onto the station, but only if the ship you just left did not synch
>rotation before docking.
I have only one point to add to this. While in such an environment, never
make quick movements, else you screw up your head royally.
--
Richard Y Chang \ \/ / Idiot, n. A member of a large and
ryc...@midway.uchicago.edu \ / powerful tribe whose influence in human
No P.D.A. on the C.R.T. / / affairs has always been dominant and
during E.D.M. -unknown /_/ controlling. -Ambrose Bierce
Mojo
The Centrifuge spins 360 degrees every 1800 frames, which is once a
minute.
During the pilot, someone online told us that was just right for thge size
of the station.
- /\/\
J Eric Chard
>when Hollywood decided that a) not normal adult watches sci-fi, & b)
>kids want to see kids.
Larry Niven, of all people, is especially guilty of this
sin.
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Quentin Mohos
>>I think this `kiddifying' process remained behind from the '50s-'60s,
>>when Hollywood decided that a) not normal adult watches sci-fi, & b)
>>kids want to see kids.
> Larry Niven, of all people, is especially guilty of this
> sin.
How so?
Quentin Mohos mo...@remus.rutgers.edu
J Eric Chard
In "The Integral Trees" and "Smoke Ring", action centers around
young males, even while there are interesting older males
doing interesting things. Also, obligatory early sex or
deflowering scenes in both.
In "The Ringworld Engineers" the City Builder boy (Kawasenjajok?)
manages to get aboard a Puppeteer controlled (!) spacecraft
>>after<< somebody has already come thru that access. C'mon.
Obligatory sex for him too.
The older I get, the less interesting this is. The kids, not
the sex. :^)
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* (OOOOOOO) Welcome to Seattle! | Film and Video *
J Eric Chard
In "The Integral Trees" and "Smoke Ring", action centers around
young males, even while there are interesting older males
doing interesting things. Also, obligatory early sex or
deflowering scenes in both.
In "The Ringworld Engineers" the City Builder boy (Kawasenjajok?)
manages to get aboard a Puppeteer controlled (!) spacecraft
>>after<< somebody has already come thru that access. C'mon.
Obligatory sex for him too.
The older I get, the less interesting this is. The kids, not
the sex. :^)
***********************************************************************
* (OOOOO) Je...@cup.portal.com | Synergy Graphix & Animation *
* (OOOOOOO) Welcome to Seattle! | Film and Video *