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San Diego Vs. Dallas: The Motorcades

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David Von Pein

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Aug 8, 2013, 1:15:59 PM8/8/13
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JFK'S VISIT TO SAN DIEGO IN JUNE 1963 (INCLUDES MOTORCADE FOOTAGE):
http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2013/08/jfk-in-san-diego-june-6-1963.html

===================

YouTube discussion regarding above video:

http://YouTube.com/all_comments?v=UOrkX3GBLyM


DAVID VON PEIN SAID (DESCRIBING VIDEO):

[The video above contains] rare videotape footage of President Kennedy's
trip to San Diego, California, on Thursday, June 6, 1963, including Air
Force One's arrival at Lindbergh Field and the President's motorcade
through the streets of San Diego.

Also included are portions of JFK's speech at San Diego State College and
video footage from the Marine Corps Recruit Depot, where the President
speaks again and is given a 21-gun salute.

A personal note --- This San Diego video is rapidly becoming one of my
all-time favorite JFK videos. It emits the same "live" and "as it is
happening" qualities that can also be found in my videos of President
Kennedy's appearances in Texas on the day he was assassinated (November
22, 1963).

This San Diego video features the same airplane (SAM 26000) that flew JFK
to his death in Dallas, plus the same limousine and the same pomp and
circumstance that surrounded Kennedy's visit to Texas in November of '63.

And how can anyone not jump a little bit when hearing gunfire (the Marines
Corps' 21-gun salute) just as the President steps off of a helicopter in
this San Diego video? It's almost impossible not to think of Dallas and
November 22nd at that moment.

And take note of the similarity between the San Diego and Dallas
motorcades. The same basic configuration of the cars and police
motorcycles is readily apparent in the clips presented in this San Diego
parade, with no Secret Service agents riding the bumper of Kennedy's car
and no military aide sitting in the front seat between the Secret Service
men--exactly the same as in Dallas' Dealey Plaza on November 22nd.

This is, in my opinion, truly a classic video. My thanks go out to the
people who rescued this videotape footage from the dustbins of history
(source listed below). It is a program I am certain to revisit many times
in the coming years.

VIDEO SOURCE: San Diego State University Library
http://library.sdsu.edu/scua/raising-our-voices/sdsu-history/university-archives-multimedia


"DAVALVIDEO" SAID:

Thanks so much for posting this. People today don't realize that fifty
years ago, when the president came to town, the local stations pulled out
all the stops to provide comprehensive coverage. One major difference
between the San Diego coverage and Dallas' was that in San Diego, even
portions of the motorcade itself were broadcast live, as well as the use
of a portable camera at the airport. Thanks again for posting this.


ERIC COOPER SAID:

Another winner! You keep finding great material. Keep up the awesome work
David!


BOB CRESTWOOD SAID:

I was one of the people lining the streets in San Diego that day to see
the motorcade. The police motorcycle formation was different--in San Diego
there was a "flying wedge" of motorcycles in front and to the side of the
presidential limousine, but in Dealy Plaza, the motorcycles stayed behind,
with no front or side protection. Also, in San Diego, there were military
vehicles preceding the limousine, but in Dealy Plaza, just one lead car,
way out in front, with no frontal protection.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

There was also a "flying wedge" of motorcycles in Dallas, just like in San
Diego. In another one of my videos here at YouTube [below], you can even
hear Joe Long of KLIF Radio, as he reported live from Love Field on
11/22/63, talk about the "flying wedge" (he even uses those exact words
[which can be heard at the 22:08 mark in the video linked below]).

http://YouTube.com/watch?v=P9S6uHesZ0A&feature=player_detailpage&t=1326

I still maintain that the Dallas protection and security was virtually
identical in all key respects when compared to this San Diego parade. No
substantial differences whatsoever when it comes to "security measures".


BRUCE ROBERTSON SAID:

Thanks David for another great video. As always, your analysis of JFK's
standard motorcade formation is spot on. Only wish more viewers would open
their eyes to the pattern.


==================================

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/secret-service.html

==================================


stevemg...@yahoo.com

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Aug 8, 2013, 3:05:25 PM8/8/13
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Perhaps so but as you know the Dallas motorcade included the VP and
various other dignitaries.

In effect, the government of the US could have been decapitated very
easily.

To have that level of leadership with essentially the same measures was,
in my view, grossly irresponsible.

Somebody fell asleep and it wasn't just Clint Hill.

Anthony Marsh

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Aug 8, 2013, 10:02:26 PM8/8/13
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Also notice the truck full of photographers in front of the limo, which
didn't happen in Dallas. Also, in Dallas they kicked the official WH
photographer out of the Queen Mary.


Chad Anthony

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Aug 8, 2013, 10:26:07 PM8/8/13
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Even had SS been riding on the back the limo would Oswald still had a
decent shot? Perhaps from Houston just to the turn on Elm street.

slats

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Aug 8, 2013, 10:29:51 PM8/8/13
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not to steal your thunder, but somebody uplaoded the exact same footage
two years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrJ6Q5avdRc>



David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com> wrote in
news:29a7c7b5-62f6-45f0...@googlegroups.com:

>
> JFK'S VISIT TO SAN DIEGO IN JUNE 1963 (INCLUDES MOTORCADE FOOTAGE):
> http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2013/08/jfk-in-san-diego-june-6-1963.h
> tml
>
> ==================
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/secret-service.html
>
> =================================
>
>

David Von Pein

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Aug 8, 2013, 11:05:41 PM8/8/13
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ANTHONY MARSH SAID:

Also notice [in the video of JFK's motorcade in San Diego on 6/6/63] the
truck full of photographers in front of the limo, which didn't happen in
Dallas.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Regardless of where the photographers were located, the "security" was
identical in both of those motorcades (San Diego on June 6 and Dallas on
November 22), unless some conspiracy theorists would like to suggest that
the photographers and cameramen were supposed to perform double duty in
Dallas--taking pictures and serving as human shields to protect JFK at the
same time.

Do conspiracists really believe the photogs and cameramen were
deliberately placed further back in the Dallas motorcade in order to avoid
filming the "conspiracy in action" in Dealey Plaza? Utter nonsense.

Plus, we know that there WERE multiple professional cameramen who filmed
the action in the Plaza within seconds of the assassination--e.g., Mal
Couch of WFAA and Dave Wiegman of NBC. Plus Tom Dillard of the DMN, plus
Jim Altgens of AP, plus the many amateur photographers who took pictures
DURING the assassination itself.

And I want to once again rub the CTers' noses in this comment I made on
YouTube:

"The same basic configuration of the cars and police motorcycles is
readily apparent in the clips presented in this San Diego parade, with no
Secret Service agents riding the bumper of Kennedy's car and no military
aide sitting in the front seat between the Secret Service men--exactly the
same as in Dallas' Dealey Plaza on November 22nd." -- DVP

I wonder what CTers like Vince Palamara think about the above-mentioned
Dallas/San Diego similarities? I'm sure Vince will just ignore the fact
that there was no military general riding in the front seat of JFK's car
in either San Diego or Dallas. Nor do we see any SS agents riding JFK's
bumper.

The June 6th San Diego video, all by itself, pretty much destroys several
different conspiracy myths concerning the Dallas motorcade and the B.S.
about a Secret Service "standdown" and "security stripping" in Dallas.

But, then too, perhaps some conspiracy clown can now start a new theory
about how the San Diego video has been altered in order to digitally
remove the SS agents who were continuously riding the bumper of Kennedy's
car in San Diego.

With people like Ralph "All Photos Are Fake" Cinque examining the case,
nothing would surprise me anymore.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/08/jfk-in-san-diego-june-6-1963.html

David Von Pein

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Aug 8, 2013, 11:06:35 PM8/8/13
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Yes, I know, slats. That's the San Diego University channel at YouTube.
That's where I got my copy of the video.

borings

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Aug 10, 2013, 11:59:40 AM8/10/13
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On Thursday, August 8, 2013 11:06:35 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
> Yes, I know, slats. That's the San Diego University channel at YouTube. That's where I got my copy of the video.

I proudly posted the San Diego video on my blog recently.

San Diego- Hundreds of Marines lined the streets, along with police, facing the crowd; the building roofs were manned as the procession passed; SAIC BEHN was on the trip, etc....of course, agents were not always on/ near the rear of the limo- the police and/or military lining the streets, facing the crowd, as well as the building rooftops being guarded as the motorcade passed, more than compensated for this (manpower) situation 9that is the key)...and, yes- these were normal occurences ***BEFORE*** Dallas. Chief Inspector Michael Torina, whom i spoke to and who wrote the Secret Service manual, confirmed these facts- I would say he was slightly an authority on the matter (just slightly...). People like Blaine, a buck private who served briefly, have little authority on the matter, especially in comparison to Torina, a giant in the Secret Service, to put it mildly. See? The gotcha game Marsh has been playing with photos on these newsgroups is laughable on its face- security was not always "in your face" and overt...out of necessity, it was covert, as well (a good example being D.C. motorcades).


Vince Palamara
P.S. David, go Buccos!

Anthony Marsh

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Aug 10, 2013, 12:21:19 PM8/10/13
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On 8/8/2013 11:05 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> ANTHONY MARSH SAID:
>
> Also notice [in the video of JFK's motorcade in San Diego on 6/6/63] the
> truck full of photographers in front of the limo, which didn't happen in
> Dallas.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> Regardless of where the photographers were located, the "security" was
> identical in both of those motorcades (San Diego on June 6 and Dallas on
> November 22), unless some conspiracy theorists would like to suggest that
> the photographers and cameramen were supposed to perform double duty in
> Dallas--taking pictures and serving as human shields to protect JFK at the
> same time.
>

Straw man argument. No one is stupid enough to claim that. The point is
that having PROFESSIONAL photographers very close to the action would
have produced much better photographs of the assassination. For example,
when I point out the man behind the fence it is easy for you to dismiss
it because Moorman was using a Polaroid. If Stoughton had been in the SS
car taking many photos during the shooting we wouldn't be arguing the
point. We'd be identifying the shooter.

> Do conspiracists really believe the photogs and cameramen were
> deliberately placed further back in the Dallas motorcade in order to avoid
> filming the "conspiracy in action" in Dealey Plaza? Utter nonsense.
>
> Plus, we know that there WERE multiple professional cameramen who filmed
> the action in the Plaza within seconds of the assassination--e.g., Mal
> Couch of WFAA and Dave Wiegman of NBC. Plus Tom Dillard of the DMN, plus
> Jim Altgens of AP, plus the many amateur photographers who took pictures
> DURING the assassination itself.

And we know that Jackson missed the Pulitzer Prize photo of the shooter
because he didn't reload his camera. And Altgens was the ONLY
professional in the right place to get the head shot and he missed it
because he took the wrong camera and was fiddling with it.

>
> And I want to once again rub the CTers' noses in this comment I made on
> YouTube:
>
> "The same basic configuration of the cars and police motorcycles is
> readily apparent in the clips presented in this San Diego parade, with no
> Secret Service agents riding the bumper of Kennedy's car and no military
> aide sitting in the front seat between the Secret Service men--exactly the
> same as in Dallas' Dealey Plaza on November 22nd." -- DVP
>

So what? I have made the same points about other motorcades before.
What you never mention is the difference in personnel that day. They
were undermanned, inexperienced, old and hung over.

> I wonder what CTers like Vince Palamara think about the above-mentioned
> Dallas/San Diego similarities? I'm sure Vince will just ignore the fact
> that there was no military general riding in the front seat of JFK's car
> in either San Diego or Dallas. Nor do we see any SS agents riding JFK's
> bumper.
>

All of this has been pointed out to Vince before by me and others in
person and he doesn't care. You've never talked to him, have you?
Why don't you badger the WC defender who still claims that Hickey shot
JFK in the head with the AR-15? Because you always argue with a double
standard.

> The June 6th San Diego video, all by itself, pretty much destroys several
> different conspiracy myths concerning the Dallas motorcade and the B.S.
> about a Secret Service "standdown" and "security stripping" in Dallas.
>

I have shot them down before.

> But, then too, perhaps some conspiracy clown can now start a new theory
> about how the San Diego video has been altered in order to digitally
> remove the SS agents who were continuously riding the bumper of Kennedy's
> car in San Diego.
>

Straw man. Always attack, never admit even the simplest fact.

> With people like Ralph "All Photos Are Fake" Cinque examining the case,
> nothing would surprise me anymore.
>

You always go for the low hanging fruit (pun intended).

> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/08/jfk-in-san-diego-june-6-1963.html
>


David Von Pein

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Aug 10, 2013, 12:36:09 PM8/10/13
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http://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/Q02FNFaKMlA/eYRJ9Dp89b4J

VINCE PALAMARA SAID:

The gotcha game Marsh has been playing with photos on these newsgroups is
laughable on its face...


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Unless I've missed some sparring between Vincent M. Palamara and Anthony
Marsh in some other newsgroup threads (which is certainly possible), it
looks like Vince is complaining to the wrong person. Marsh was taking YOUR
side, Vince, when he said this:

"Also notice the truck full of photographers in front of the limo, which
didn't happen in Dallas. Also, in Dallas they kicked the official WH
photographer out of the Queen Mary." -- T. Marsh

But my main point on this security issue is still a perfectly valid one --
and that is: the security we see in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas, on
11/22/63 is substantially the same security that we see in San Diego on
June 6th -- e.g., no military aide in the front seat of JFK's limo; no
Secret Service men riding the bumper of Kennedy's car; two SS agents on
each of the running boards of the SS follow-up car; motorcycles flanking
the President's car to the left-rear and the right-rear.

All of that stuff is identical in both of those motorcades. And even if
there weren't some extra Marines (or policemen) lining the streets in
Dallas PRIOR to Dealey Plaza -- so what? JFK wasn't killed on Main Street
or on Cedar Springs or on Lemmon Avenue. He was killed on Elm Street.

Now, we can argue all day long about how the Secret Service and the Dallas
Police Department blew it by not stationing more men to guard Elm and
Houston Streets in Dealey Plaza. But that's merely Monday-morning
quarterbacking, to be sure.

Since Dealey Plaza was at the very end of the parade route, and since the
crowds were, indeed, much thinner in Dealey Plaza than they were on Main
Street (and probably on Harwood and other streets as well), a large police
presence right in Dealey Plaza itself was probably not deemed necessary by
the Dallas Police or Sheriff's Department. (Even though, ironically, the
Dallas County Jail is located right there on Houston Street.)

But hindsight is always 20/20 and is never wrong. If, however, we let our
hindsight guide our thinking (and our theories) regarding JFK's security
measures in Dallas on November 22, 1963, we are playing right into the
hands of the looniest of the conspiracy theorists who seem to want to
believe that the security measures taken in Dallas were so lax and so
inept (on purpose!) that JFK had no hope of making it to the Trade Mart
alive.

But such conspiratorial thinking is just not reasonable or rational. The
bottom line is that the security surrounding John F. Kennedy's limousine
as it drove through Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 was absolutely identical in
nature to the security that JFK received while riding in that very same
open-top car dozens of times prior to visiting Dallas.

And, in my opinion, even if a considerable number of extra policemen had
been lining the streets in Dallas, it still would not have prevented Lee
Harvey Oswald from poking that rifle out of that sixth-floor window at
exactly 12:30 PM CST and murdering President Kennedy.

Anthony Marsh

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Aug 10, 2013, 9:44:22 PM8/10/13
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On 8/8/2013 10:26 PM, Chad Anthony wrote:
> Even had SS been riding on the back the limo would Oswald still had a
> decent shot? Perhaps from Houston just to the turn on Elm street.
>


Even if the two SS agents had been riding on the rear bumper they would
not have blocked shots. The point is to be close enough to instantly
cover the President with their bodies.
That's why they put handholds on the back as you can see in other
motorcades. When the limo was delivered to the WH they had retractable
running boards on both sides. But they were never used because they were
too dangerous to spectators.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/KN-C18065.jpg


Anthony Marsh

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Aug 10, 2013, 11:20:08 PM8/10/13
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In my previous message I said Jerry Behn when I meant Jerry Blaine.


Anthony Marsh

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Aug 10, 2013, 11:24:32 PM8/10/13
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On 8/10/2013 11:59 AM, borings wrote:
> On Thursday, August 8, 2013 11:06:35 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
>> Yes, I know, slats. That's the San Diego University channel at YouTube. That's where I got my copy of the video.
>
> I proudly posted the San Diego video on my blog recently.
>
> San Diego- e crowd;Hundreds of Marines lined the streets, along with police, facing th the building roofs were manned as the procession passed; SAIC BEHN was on the trip, etc....of course, agents were not always on/ near the rear of the limo- the police and/or military lining the streets, facing the crowd, as well as the building rooftops being guarded as the motorcade passed, more than compensated for this (manpower) situation 9that is the key)...and, yes- these were normal occurences ***BEFORE*** Dallas. Chief Inspector Michael Torina, whom i spoke to and who wrote the Secret Service manual, confirmed these facts- I would say he was slightly an authority on the matter (just slightly...). People like Blaine, a buck private who served briefly, have little authority on the matter, especially in comparison to Torina, a giant in the Secret Service, to put it mildly. See? The gotcha game Marsh has been playing with photos on these newsgroups is laughable on its face- security w
as not
always "in your face" and overt...out of necessity, it was covert, as well (a good example being D.C. motorcades).
>
>
> Vince Palamara
> P.S. David, go Buccos!
>


Show me motorcades where "Hundreds of Marines lined the streets, along
with police, facing th the building roofs were manned as the procession
passed."


Jean Davison

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Aug 11, 2013, 9:28:46 AM8/11/13
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The problem, I think, is that most people here aren't old enough
to realize how much the President's security changed after Dallas. Just
a week earlier a NY Times article headlined "President to Arrive Today
Without the Usual Police Escort" reported, "Pierre Salinger, the
President's press secretary, said Mr. Kennedy had requested that the
escort be eliminated because we don't want to disrupt normal New York
traffic." The article gave some details on JFK's route from the airport
to the Carlyle Hotel. (11/14/63, p. 29)

This wasn't a motorcade, so there was no convertible, but JFK's
car stopped at traffic lights just like regular commuters. Imagine that
happening today.

Thanks for putting these videos online, David.

Jean


slats

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Aug 11, 2013, 9:29:10 AM8/11/13
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David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com> wrote in
news:63abb714-6e86-4d87...@googlegroups.com:

>
> http://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/Q02FNFaKMlA/eYRJ9Dp89
Yeah, I'm not seeing many police officers or SS agents on rooftops, only
civilians. The one difference in San Diego is that two of the four
motorcycle cops were about even with Greer and Behn. In Dallas, all four
cops were behind the limo.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5351/njk4.jpg

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6183/9x8i.jpg

http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img18/1584/gr27.jpg&sa=0

This is a small pic, but if you enlarge it you can see Marines on the left
hand side facing the crowds.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5581/qrv4.jpg

Bud

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Aug 11, 2013, 11:41:11 AM8/11/13
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On Saturday, August 10, 2013 11:59:40 AM UTC-4, borings wrote:
> On Thursday, August 8, 2013 11:06:35 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
>
> > Yes, I know, slats. That's the San Diego University channel at YouTube. That's where I got my copy of the video.
>
>
>
> I proudly posted the San Diego video on my blog recently.
>
>
>
> San Diego- Hundreds of Marines lined the streets, along with police, facing the crowd; the building roofs were manned as the procession passed; SAIC BEHN was on the trip, etc....of course, agents were not always on/ near the rear of the limo- the police and/or military lining the streets, facing the crowd, as well as the building rooftops being guarded as the motorcade passed,

None of which would have made it impossible for someone to shoot a rifle
out a window and kill Kennedy.

stevemg...@yahoo.com

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Aug 11, 2013, 8:01:24 PM8/11/13
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Great points. Many of us - some? - weren't alive at the time of the assassination and all of our understanding of presidential appearances is post-Dallas.

Although I recall reading that Sinatra was furious when JFK changed his plans and spent Christmas with Crosby. Sinatra, per the demands of the SS, made all kinds of changes to ensure the safety and the president.

Vince Palamara

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Aug 11, 2013, 8:04:44 PM8/11/13
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(you guys must have missed this from the other newsgroup- I rarely post anything any more because people just want to argue and argue ad naseum, not to mention the personal attacks and so forth...but here you go:)

With my book about to be released in a few short weeks, I thought it was now time to clear up a common misconception (easily understandable to the layman) about security for JFK's motorcades PRE-Dallas. First off, everyone needs to view the security with 1963 glasses, so to speak- of course, you CANNOT use modern security techniques and apply them to Dallas or, for that matter, any motorcade circa 1961-1963; even after that time period, to a point.

That said, I have never said agents were always on/ near the rear of the limo (although it was more common than one would be led to believe by viewing a still photo or two from any given motorcade)- JFK was NOT in the equation whether they were there or not; that is the bottom line. But that is not the point here.

I proudly and enthusiastically posted that San Diego video (and many others) on my blogs (plural), as well as elsewhere, for they demonstrate what WAS a common security practice before Dallas:

1) Military and/ or police lining the streets and facing the crowd (and often being IN the crowd itself), not (just) the procession. This was mainly but not exclusively a manpower issue, as the agency simply did not have the agents or resources to man streets and so forth back then.

The OTHER security practice that was common BEFORE Dallas that would, out of necessity, rarely, if ever, appear in photographs or films:

2) agents and/ or police and/ or military manned building rooftops until the procession passed.

Besides ***contemporary records*** of this occuring in Nashville in May 1963, Tampa in November 1963, and San Antonio, also in November 1963, among other stops, Chief Inspector of the Secret Service Michael Torina, who wrote the Secret Service manual and to whom I spoke to, confirmed this practice as being standard during this time. My book, revised and expanded, will go a long way to clearing up the myths and misconceptions propagated by people like Gerald Blaine, a buck private who only served a brief time in the Service and who wrote his book as a direct reaction to my letter to his best friend Clint Hill.

So we can stop the "gotcha" game of finding a photo without real overt protection and saying "what gives?" AND blaming JFK for the security problems in Dallas. I trust people like Torina and his colleagues in the brass far more than any author (Manchester) or former agent with an obvious agenda(Blaine). Security was both overt (bubbletop, partial or full; agents on/ near the rear of the limo, good motorcycle formation, etc) AND covert (PRS threat monitoring, buildings being checked and manned, military and police lining the street, being in the crowd itself, etc).

I do understand- it is easy for lay people who haven't spoken to actual former agents and who base their judgement on a photograph or segment of film to "see" what they want to see or think is "there" (or what is viewable to the naked eye is all that IS "there"). Again, security was both overt and covert.

Lastly, we can retire the "blame O'Donnell"/ staff myth along with the "blame the victim"/ JFK routine. In addition to statements made by Dave Powers and Helen O'Donnell to myself (in Helen's case, based on both her memory AND her father's extensive AUDIO tapes [there ya go, Tony- audio tapes for ya: what you always dreamed of LOL], I had the pleasure of viewing the William Manchester materials at Wesleyan University NOT sealed until the year 2067 (no joke)...O'Donnell makes no mention whatsoever about JFK restricting security. In fact, there is NOTHING in the papers suggesting otherwise; Helen is correct. In addition, Floyd Boring was not interviewed for Manchester's book and denounced what was attributed to him; Sam Kinney, Rufus Youngblood, and others did the same [Blaine is now claiming that neither Boring or ***himself*** was interviewed...and his transcript has mysteriously disappeared...hmmmm...].

Keep in mind, the Secret Service was facing the worst crisis in their history (to date, it still is): they were justifiably worried that they would either lose their protective functions or, worse yet, Hoover would take over and the Secret Service would become defunct (Congressional hearings, public scorn, loss of jobs, pensions, reputations- all were at stake). There was a need to "CYA" and lie- blaming the dead president suited their ends quite nicely (and what could HE say? He was DEAD, thanks to them). It sounded plausible (he had a "rendezvous with death", remember [meantime, WE ALL DO- what exaggerated nonsense]) and who would question such a 'verdict', especially circa 1964. By the time we reached the 1970's, along with tales of JFK's reckless private behavior, his alleged reckless security concerns were joined hand in glove: the myth was set in stone...until 1992, quite by accident, when I looked into this matter.

Vince Palamara
Author of the forthcoming "Survivor's Guilt: The Secret Service & The Failure to Protect President Kennedy"

David Von Pein

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Aug 11, 2013, 8:05:47 PM8/11/13
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JEAN DAVISON SAID:

This wasn't a motorcade, so there was no convertible, but JFK's car [in NYC] stopped at traffic lights just like regular commuters. Imagine that happening today.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Exactly, Jean. In fact, there's even a little more to that story about JFK's car stopping at traffic lights, etc., during his New York trip in Nov. of '63----

During NBC-TV's non-stop assassination coverage on Nov. 22 (see the video clip below), Frank McGee of NBC talks about how JFK's car was even "blocked by a truck and some busses" at one point during his drive through New York City, with McGee going on to say that JFK "enjoyed this quite enormously". The President actually liked being treated like an ordinary motorist in bustling New York City at rush hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LML4qZnlEIA&t=573

Anthony Marsh

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Aug 11, 2013, 8:08:00 PM8/11/13
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As per JFK's wishes. You haven't looked at any other motorcades, have you?

slats

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Aug 12, 2013, 2:53:03 PM8/12/13
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Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:5207e057$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu:
?

I don't remember JFK making any special requests regarding motorcycle
policemen or agents on rooftops. He only (allegedly) told them to stay
off the bumper. And the fact that they were even ON the bumper in Tampa
was an anomoly in and of itself. Agents usually only rode the bumper on
overseas trips, not domestic ones.

Anthony Marsh

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Aug 12, 2013, 11:07:04 PM8/12/13
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Reading where? Silly. Sinatra was a friend.

The Impact of Suddenly

Two stories concerning this film have become part of movie lore.
Allegedly, it was seen by Lee Harvey Oswald a month before he murdered
President John F. Kennedy. Although some say that this is no more than
urban legend, in Jean Davison’s book, Oswald’s Game, the author states
that Oswald’s wife, Marina, confirmed that she and her husband had seen
the film in October, 1963.

The second story associated with the film is that Sinatra, a personal
friend of JFK‘s, was so distraught over the news of Oswald having been
possibly influenced by the movie that he used his clout to have it
withdrawn from circulation. This story may in fact be partially true.

Both Suddenly and The Manchurian Candidate (1962), another movie
portraying political assassination, were pulled from distribution
shortly after Kennedy’s death and neither was available for many years.
However, according to the Internet Movie Database, the Sinatra family
has always denied that the singer/actor had any part in the decision.


Anthony Marsh

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Aug 13, 2013, 1:35:57 AM8/13/13
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On 8/11/2013 8:04 PM, Vince Palamara wrote:
> (you guys must have missed this from the other newsgroup- I rarely post anything any more because people just want to argue and argue ad naseum, not to mention the personal attacks and so forth...but here you go:)
>
> With my book about to be released in a few short weeks, I thought it was now time to clear up a common misconception (easily understandable to the layman) about security for JFK's motorcades PRE-Dallas. First off, everyone needs to view the security with 1963 glasses, so to speak- of course, you CANNOT use modern security techniques and apply them to Dallas or, for that matter, any motorcade circa 1961-1963; even after that time period, to a point.
>
> That said, I have never said agents were always on/ near the rear of the limo (although it was more common than one would be led to believe by viewing a still photo or two from any given motorcade)- JFK was NOT in the equation whether they were there or not; that is the bottom line. But that is not the point here.
>

Misleading. JFK did not issue any order about the SS agents riding on
the back bumper until the Tampa trip. Seems you never watched The
Kennedy Detail. Here is what Jerry Blaine said:

00:35:37 THE PRESIDENT ARRIVED atMacDill air force base in tampa,
and he helicoptered out to lopez stadium, and he gave
his speech there.
00:35:48 Then we started a motorcade.
00:35:50 The problem was we had 28 miles of motorcade.
00:35:56 I said, "those guys are gonna be worn out, "so I think I'm
gonna have them
"ride on the back end of the president's car,
"because we just don't have the manpower " all of a
sudden,
I hear over the radio, the president wants the ivy
league charlatans to fall
back to the follow-up car, and he politely told everybody,
"we're starting the campaign now, " he said,
"I couldn't get elected dog catcher "
we all of a sudden understood,
but it left a firm command to stay off the back of the
car.


> I proudly and enthusiastically posted that San Diego video (and many others) on my blogs (plural), as well as elsewhere, for they demonstrate what WAS a common security practice before Dallas:
>
> 1) Military and/ or police lining the streets and facing the crowd (and often being IN the crowd itself), not (just) the procession. This was mainly but not exclusively a manpower issue, as the agency simply did not have the agents or resources to man streets and so forth back then.
>
> The OTHER security practice that was common BEFORE Dallas that would, out of necessity, rarely, if ever, appear in photographs or films:
>
> 2) agents and/ or police and/ or military manned building rooftops until the procession passed.
>
> Besides ***contemporary records*** of this occuring in Nashville in May 1963, Tampa in November 1963, and San Antonio, also in November 1963, among other stops, Chief Inspector of the Secret Service Michael Torina, who wrote the Secret Service manual and to whom I spoke to, confirmed this practice as being standard during this time. My book, revised and expanded, will go a long way to clearing up the myths and misconceptions propagated by people like Gerald Blaine, a buck private who only served a brief time in the Service and who wrote his book as a direct reaction to my letter to his best friend Clint Hill.
>
> So we can stop the "gotcha" game of finding a photo without real overt protection and saying "what gives?" AND blaming JFK for the security problems in Dallas. I trust people like Torina and his colleagues in the brass far more than any author (Manchester) or former agent with an obvious agenda(Blaine). Security was both overt (bubbletop, partial or full; agents on/ near the rear of the limo, good motorcycle formation, etc) AND covert (PRS threat monitoring, buildings being checked and manned, military and police lining the street, being in the crowd itself, etc).

The Bubbletop was not for security. It was not bullet proof. It was only
plexiglass. It was only for weather. Another good security measure is to
cancel the motorcade, which they had done a couple of times before.
Connally recommended against the motorcade because he was worried about
Kennedy's safety. They could just use a helicopter as they had done a
couple of times before. But Kennedy was running for reelection and wanted
to be seen by the public.

>
> I do understand- it is easy for lay people who haven't spoken to actual former agents and who base their judgement on a photograph or segment of film to "see" what they want to see or think is "there" (or what is viewable to the naked eye is all that IS "there"). Again, security was both overt and covert.
>

It is easy for you to twist their words to make everything look sinister.

> Lastly, we can retire the "blame O'Donnell"/ staff myth along with the "blame the victim"/ JFK routine. In addition to statements made by Dave Powers and Helen O'Donnell to myself (in Helen's case, based on both her memory AND her father's extensive AUDIO tapes [there ya go, Tony- audio tapes for ya: what you always dreamed of LOL], I had the pleasure of viewing the William Manchester materials at Wesleyan University NOT sealed until the year 2067 (no joke)...O'Donnell makes no mention whatsoever about JFK restricting security. In fact, there is NOTHING in the papers suggesting otherwise; Helen is correct. In addition, Floyd Boring was not interviewed for Manchester's book and denounced what was attributed to him; Sam Kinney, Rufus Youngblood, and others did the same [Blaine is now claiming that neither Boring or ***himself*** was interviewed...and his transcript has mysteriously disappeared...hmmmm...].
>

The order came directly from the President himself.

> Keep in mind, the Secret Service was facing the worst crisis in their history (to date, it still is): they were justifiably worried that they would either lose their protective functions or, worse yet, Hoover would take over and the Secret Service would become defunct (Congressional hearings, public scorn, loss of jobs, pensions, reputations- all were at stake). There was a need to "CYA" and lie- blaming the dead president suited their ends quite nicely (and what could HE say? He was DEAD, thanks to them). It sounded plausible (he had a "rendezvous with death", remember [meantime, WE ALL DO- what exaggerated nonsense]) and who would question such a 'verdict', especially circa 1964. By the time we reached the 1970's, along with tales of JFK's reckless private behavior, his alleged reckless security concerns were joined hand in glove: the myth was set in stone...until 1992, quite by accident, when I looked into this matter.
>

JFK said himself that very morning that if some nut wanted to shoot him
from an office building there was nothing anyone could do about it, so
why worry.

Anthony Marsh

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Aug 13, 2013, 11:41:59 PM8/13/13
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I never said anything about motorcycle policemen on rooftops. I think
you read something else that someone else said.

> off the bumper. And the fact that they were even ON the bumper in Tampa
> was an anomoly in and of itself. Agents usually only rode the bumper on
> overseas trips, not domestic ones.
>

Pretty much, but again you have not LOOKED at all the trips.



slats

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Aug 14, 2013, 9:32:07 AM8/14/13
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Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in news:520a9796$1
@mcadams.posc.mu.edu:
I said that the SD motorcade did not seem to show evidence of agents on
rooftops. I also noted that the motorcycle arrangement was different
compared to Dallas. You replied, "As per JFK's wishes."
What are you referring to? AFAIK, his only "wish" concerned agents on the
bumper, not motorcycle groupings or anything else.

>> off the bumper. And the fact that they were even ON the bumper in
Tampa
>> was an anomoly in and of itself. Agents usually only rode the bumper
on
>> overseas trips, not domestic ones.
>>
>
> Pretty much, but again you have not LOOKED at all the trips.

I've seen tons of JFK motorcade photos. I feel comfortable/confident
stating that agents stationed on the bumper during domestic trips was
exceedingly rare.

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