Did Brennan give desription to Sawyer?
davidma...@yahoo.com
did not remember speaking to Brennan.
John McAdams
<davidma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Where did the police get the description of Oswald? Inspector Sawyer
>did not remember speaking to Brennan.
>
But he didn't remember getting the description from anybody *else,*
did he?
And we know what the description was. If there was another witness
who produced a description virtually identical to that of Brennan, it
hardly impeaches the case against Oswald.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
David Von Pein
>>> "If there was another witness who produced a description virtually identical to that of Brennan, it hardly impeaches the case against Oswald." <<<
You're quite correct there, John. ....
"Another theory that CTers seem to like quite a bit is the one
that claims it wasn't really Brennan who gave the first description of
the Depository sniper to the police just a few minutes after the
shooting. Conspiracists want to believe, evidently, that either the
police simply made up out of thin air the description of the assailant
in the TSBD .... or .... that it was some other (unknown and never
identified) person who gave DPD Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer the
description of the killer....which was a description that almost
perfectly matched the one Brennan gave in his 11/22 affidavit.
"I don't deny that there was/is some confusion regarding who
exactly it was who gave the first description of the assassin to the
police (which was the basis for the initial APB broadcast by the DPD
at 12:44 PM on 11/22/63). But to believe that it was someone other
than Brennan who gave Inspector Sawyer the description of the killer
is to also believe that two strange things occurred in relation to
this "other" witness (with #2 belonging in a separate "Very Odd And
Amazingly Coincidental"
category):
"1.) It was a witness who was never identified (and never
bothered to come forward to be identified), even though he is
providing some of the most important info in history.
"2.) This unknown witness' physical description of the assassin
just happens to perfectly coincide with the info that Brennan supplied
the police and the Secret Service and (later) the Warren Commission.
"Also -- If there WAS, in fact, yet ANOTHER witness who saw the
exact same thing that Brennan saw, this would tend to buttress (even
more) the notion that Oswald, or someone who looked very similar to
Oswald, was firing from just where Brennan said the man was firing
from in the Book Depository Building." -- DVP; 11/19/2006
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/a83751f6ce319004
claviger
<davidmaggs2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Where did the police get the description of Oswald? Inspector Sawyer
> did not remember speaking to Brennan.
Oswald's supervisor at the TSBD, Roy Truly, gave a description to the
police, when Oswald failed to return to his department. Truly had seen
Oswald earlier in the lunchroom so LHO was conspicuous by his absence.
yeuhd
Critics have questioned whether Howard Brennan was really the source
of Sawyer’s detailed description and the dispatcher’s subsequent
broadcast. In "Accessories after the Fact", author Sylvia Meagher
wrote that Brennan testified he gave the description to Secret Service
agent Forrest Sorrels, who arrived at the scene after Sawyer’s
broadcast; that Sawyer did not remember speaking to Brennan or anyone
who resembled him; and that a few minutes after the description was
broadcast, Sawyer reported, “It’s unknown whether he is still in the
building or not known if he was there in the first place”—an
indication, according to Meagher, that the description came from a
witness who hadn’t seen the gunman in the Depository at all, much less
a particular window (Meagher, "Accessories after the Fact", p.10).
Although Meagher is correct in reporting that any description given by
Brennan to Sorrels could only have occurred after Sawyer’s 12:44 p.m.
broadcast (since Sorrels didn’t arrive at the Depository until about
12:50 p.m.), Brennan wrote in his 1987 book that he spoke with Sawyer
before his encounter with Sorrels and that he gave Sawyer the same
description he later gave Sorrels (Brennan with Cherryholmes,
"Eyewitness to History", pp.17–18, 104 note 5).
A correlation of the testimony of those present and the Dallas police
radio recordings corroborates Brennan’s story. Meagher’s claim that
Sawyer did not remember speaking to Brennan or anyone who resembled
him is only a quarter-truth. Although he didn’t recall Brennan by
name, when he was asked about the person who supplied the description,
Sawyer testified, “That description came to me mainly from one witness
who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor
of the building and claimed to have been able to see the man up
there” (6 H 322). Asked to provide details about the witness, Sawyer
remembered that he was a “white man” who was “a few years either way”
of thirty-five. Sawyer also recalled sending the witness “with an
escort to the sheriff’s office to give fuller or more complete
detail.” (6 H 322–323) Only two witnesses who claimed to have seen the
gunman firing the rifle were known to police at that time—the fifteen-
year-old black youth, Amos Euins, and the forty-five-year-old white
construction worker, Howard Brennan. Clearly, Sawyer is referring to
Brennan. And like Sawyer’s recollection, Brennan was escorted to the
sheriff’s office by Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels. (7 H 349,
WCT Forrest V. Sorrels) In fact, the affidavit that Brennan gave at
the sheriff’s office within an hour of the shooting includes this
description of the gunman: “He was a white man in his early 30’s,
slender, nice looking . . . would weigh about 165 to 175
pounds” (Decker Exhibit No. 5323, 19 H 470). Brennan’s description is
nearly identical in language to Sawyer’s broadcast: “The wanted person
in this is a slender white male about thirty. Five foot, ten. A
hundred and sixty-five” (NAS-CBA DPD tapes, C2, 12:44 p.m.).
David Von Pein
>>> "Oswald's supervisor at the TSBD, Roy Truly, gave a description to the
police, when Oswald failed to return to his department. Truly had seen
Oswald earlier in the lunchroom so LHO was conspicuous by his absence."
<<<
That was well after the initial 12:44 PM ABP DPD broadcast. Truly could
not possibly have been the source of the description of the sixth-floor
shooter at 12:44.
Besides, Truly didn't see the 6th-Floor gunman anyway.
yeuhd
That can't be it. Truly didn't report Oswald's absence to the police
until about 1:30 p.m., about 45 minutes after Sawyer first relayed a
description of the shooter over the radio.
claviger
David,
Good point, but Truly knew LHO had reason to be on the 6th floor where
the rifle was found and he was the only one unaccounted for. He had
seen Oswald only a few minutes earlier in the lunchroom, so Truly gave
a description of LHO based on this suspicious behavior. Does anyone
know the description he gave the police and did they use it? I'm
wondering how close it matched Brennen's description?
claviger
yeuhd,
Any idea how close the two descriptions compared? Did the DPD
broadcast Truly's description too?
thali...@hotmail.com
How the sniper's height was known is another mystery.
tomnln
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e92be2a0-b87e-46ff...@v35g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
David,
They supposedly got Oswald's name from Truly.
They supposedly got a clothing description from Brennan.
NEITHER were in the APB ! ! !
Anthony Marsh
> On Feb 28, 12:15 pm, David Von Pein<davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>> "Oswald's supervisor at the TSBD, Roy Truly, gave a description to the
>> police, when Oswald failed to return to his department. Truly had seen
>> Oswald earlier in the lunchroom so LHO was conspicuous by his absence."
>> <<<
>>
>> That was well after the initial 12:44 PM ABP DPD broadcast. Truly could
>> not possibly have been the source of the description of the sixth-floor
>> shooter at 12:44.
>>
>> Besides, Truly didn't see the 6th-Floor gunman anyway.
>
> David,
>
> Good point, but Truly knew LHO had reason to be on the 6th floor where
> the rifle was found and he was the only one unaccounted for. He had
False. Oswald was not the only one unaccounted for. So was Givens, as
reported by Truly, which prompted an APB by the DPD.
> seen Oswald only a few minutes earlier in the lunchroom, so Truly gave
> a description of LHO based on this suspicious behavior. Does anyone
What suspicious behavior? Sipping a Coke and acting calm?
> know the description he gave the police and did they use it? I'm
> wondering how close it matched Brennen's description?
>
>
Why in the world would you assume they had to depend on Truly for a
description of Oswald? Oswald had just been confronted by a trained cop,
Marion Baker, for Christ's sake.
The first descriptions were vague and did not identify Oswald by name or
the suspect as being a TSBD worker.
yeuhd
> How the sniper's height was known is another mystery.
Howard Brennan said that he estimated the shooter's height based on the
relation of the shooter to the height of the window sill. Misleading, as
it turned out — the sixth floor window sills were lower than normal, and
whoever was inside was probably sitting or kneeling. In any case,
Brennan's estimate turned out to be not far off the mark from Oswald's
actual height.
yeuhd
Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz,
did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and
where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said
5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair — whatever I picked up
off the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to
describe him. I just put down what was on this application blank
[Oswald had turned 24 since applying for the job]. That's the reason I
called Mr. Aiken [who kept the application records], because I did not
want to mislead anybody as to a description. I might call a man brown-
haired, and he might be blond.
Dallas police did not broadcast Truly's description of Oswald. Oswald
was arrested within minutes of Truly's telling Captain Fritz.
WC testimony of Captain Fritz:
Mr. BALL. While you were there [on the 6th floor] Mr. Truly came up to
you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the
time we finished Mr. Truly came [with Deputy Chief Lumpkin] and told
me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his
name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his
address and he gave me the Irving address.
Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found.
. . . . .
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository
after you found the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately
after he told me that.
Mr. BALL. You left almost immediately after he told you that?
Mr. FRITZ. Almost after he told me that man, I felt it important to
hold that man.
Mr. BALL. Did you give descriptions to [Dallas police detectives] Sims
and Boyd?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I told them to drive me to city hall and see if
the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and
my intentions were to go to the house at Irving. When I got to the
city hall, I asked, because, I will tell you why I asked because while
we were in the building we heard that our officer had been killed,
someone came in and told me, I asked when I got to my office who shot
the officer, and they told me his name was Oswald, and I said, "His
full name?" And they told me and I said, "That is the suspect we are
looking for in the President's killing."
David Von Pein
>>> "How the sniper's height was known is another mystery." <<<
Why is that a "mystery"? That info was supplied by Brennan too (quite
obviously). And Brennan estimated the gunman's height to be 5'10" from
having observed the killer (Oswald, of course) in the SN window both
before, during, and after the shooting.
Do you think the police just MADE UP the "5-feet-10" part of the 12:44 APB
description?
Or is your question more along these lines instead:
How could Brennan (or anyone) have possibly known what the height of the
gunman was when the gunman was partially hidden behind a dirty window?
My answer to that would be:
Brennan merely guessed. (And he was off by just one inch.)
claviger
> > Good point, but Truly knew LHO had reason to be on the 6th floor where
> > the rifle was found and he was the only one unaccounted for. He had
>
> False. Oswald was not the only one unaccounted for. So was Givens, as
> reported by Truly, which prompted an APB by the DPD.
So Truly reported all missing employees to the police. Truly knew both
were at work before the parade.
> > seen Oswald only a few minutes earlier in the lunchroom, so Truly gave
> > a description of LHO based on this suspicious behavior. Does anyone
>
> What suspicious behavior? Sipping a Coke and acting calm?
The same reason for reporting Givens, being absent without permission
to leave work.
> > know the description he gave the police and did they use it? I'm
> > wondering how close it matched Brennen's description?
>
> Why in the world would you assume they had to depend on Truly for a
> description of Oswald? Oswald had just been confronted by a trained cop,
> Marion Baker, for Christ's sake.
Baker had already left the building before Truly realized Oswald was
missing.
> The first descriptions were vague and did not identify Oswald by name or
> the suspect as being a TSBD worker.
So they were not based on information from Truly.
Anthony Marsh
>
>>>> "How the sniper's height was known is another mystery."<<<
>
>
> Why is that a "mystery"? That info was supplied by Brennan too (quite
> obviously). And Brennan estimated the gunman's height to be 5'10" from
> having observed the killer (Oswald, of course) in the SN window both
> before, during, and after the shooting.
>
Yeah, judging from the waist down.
> Do you think the police just MADE UP the "5-feet-10" part of the 12:44 APB
> description?
>
Doesn't have to come from Brennan.
> Or is your question more along these lines instead:
>
> How could Brennan (or anyone) have possibly known what the height of the
> gunman was when the gunman was partially hidden behind a dirty window?
>
> My answer to that would be:
>
> Brennan merely guessed. (And he was off by just one inch.)
>
Yeah, so what?
> www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com
>
Anthony Marsh
> Anthony,
>
>>> Good point, but Truly knew LHO had reason to be on the 6th floor where
>>> the rifle was found and he was the only one unaccounted for. He had
>> False. Oswald was not the only one unaccounted for. So was Givens, as
>> reported by Truly, which prompted an APB by the DPD.
> So Truly reported all missing employees to the police. Truly knew both
> were at work before the parade.
>
But again Truly reported Givens as missing.
>>> seen Oswald only a few minutes earlier in the lunchroom, so Truly gave
>>> a description of LHO based on this suspicious behavior. Does anyone
>> What suspicious behavior? Sipping a Coke and acting calm?
> The same reason for reporting Givens, being absent without permission
> to leave work.
>
Without permission? Please. The police sealed the building. Several
workers could not get back inside.
yeuhd
> On 3/2/2009 1:32 PM, claviger wrote:
>
> > Anthony,
>
> >>> Good point, but Truly knew LHO had reason to be on the 6th floor where
> >>> the rifle was found and he was the only one unaccounted for. He had
> >> False. Oswald was not the only one unaccounted for. So was Givens, as
> >> reported by Truly, which prompted an APB by the DPD.
> > So Truly reported all missing employees to the police. Truly knew both
> > were at work before the parade.
>
> But again Truly reported Givens as missing.
Find anything in the testimony of Inspector Sawyer, Captain Fritz,
Ochus Campbell, or Roy Truly that says Truly reported Charles Givens
as missing. That's the mystery. Truly and Campbell agree that Truly
said only Oswald. And the testimony of Sawyer, who broadcast the
bulletin about Givens, doesn't answer the question.
j.raymon...@gmail.com
workers could not get back inside.
Mr. Marsh: could you please name the workers who could not get back
inside, or indicate a source where this issue is discussed?
Anthony Marsh
Several are mentioned in Six Seconds in Dallas. Some in Pictures of the
Pain. I think someone wrote an article or Web page about it.
yeuhd
> could you please name the workers who could not get back
> inside, or indicate a source where this issue is discussed?
Commission Exhibit 1361: Signed statements obtained from all persons
known to have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the
date of the assassination.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0331b.htm
j.raymon...@gmail.com
> On 3/4/2009 9:52 PM, j.raymondcarr...@gmail.com wrote:
Mr. Marsh: could you please name the workers who could not get back
inside, or indicate a source where this issue is discussed?
Several are mentioned in Six Seconds in Dallas. Some in Pictures of
the
Pain. I think someone wrote an article or Web page about it.
Thank you. So far I have found Charles Givens, and also testimony of
Officer Hutson that he stopped people and screened
them from trying to enter.
If anyone can post any other names of TSBD employees who tried to
return to work but were prevented by police, that would be much
appreciated.
tomnln
<j.raymon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b24d4218-6a56-4703...@q27g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FINGERPRINT SUSPECT
Jack Charles Cason - President of School Book Depositary - left the
building at 12:10 p.m. and went home. (22:640)
FINGERPRINT SUSPECT
Charles Givens did not come back.
FINGERPRINT SUSPECTS (BOTH JONES AND JUNKER)
Spauldin "Pud" Jones (22:658) eating lunch at Blue Front with Herbert
Junker(another McMillan employee) (22:659)
FINGERPRINT SUSPECT
Franklin Kaiser - was absent from work on 11/22.(6:342), (23:751)
Martha: there were other TSBD fngerprint suspects.....but these are from
your list below. That's 5 individuals considered "suspect" in handling
the same items of evidence as Oswald.
thanks for the list of names.
jko
Martha <m...@comteck.com> wrote in message
news:4029...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Jack Charles Cason - President of School Book Depositary - left the
building at 12:10 p.m. and went home. (22:640)
Gloria Jean Holt - clerk at TSBD - did not return after shooting.
(19:526)
(22:652)
Sharon Simmons Nelson, Secretary, (19:256; 22-665) did not return.
Bonnie Richey, Secretary, (22:671) did not return.
Carolyn Arnold (22:635) did not return.
Mrs. Donald Baker, Clerk, did not return (22:635)
Judy Marie Johnson (22:256) did not return.
Mrs. Stella Mae Jacob (22:665) did not return.
Charles Givens did not come back.
Virginia H. Brnum - McGraw-Hill employee does not return (22:636)
Vida Lee Whatley, Clerk, does not return.(22:680)
Warren Caster (22:641; 26:738) eating lunch in Denton.
Spauldin "Pud" Jones (22:658) eating lunch at Blue Front with Herbert
Junker
(another McMillan employee) (22:659)
Mrs. Helen Palmer, clerk, (22:666) not present was at Love Field.
Franklin Kaiser - was absent from work on 11/22.(6:342), (23:751)
Vicki Davis, employee, was absent.
Dottie Lovelady, employee, was absent.
Mrs. Rudell Parsons, employee, was absent.
Joe Bergen, Scott Foresman, absent.
Maury Brown, McGraw-Hill, absent.
John Langston, absent.
Now how did Truly take an accurate roll call?
People on floors:
7th - 0
6th - 1
5th - 4
4th - 8
3rd - 4
2nd - 2
1st - 3
M
tomnln
"yeuhd" <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9e5c796a-c8f6-45c0...@l37g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0331b.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't forget these>>>
<j.raymon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b24d4218-6a56-4703...@q27g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 6, 1:01 am, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 3/4/2009 9:52 PM, j.raymondcarr...@gmail.com wrote:
Mr. Marsh: could you please name the workers who could not get back
inside, or indicate a source where this issue is discussed?
Several are mentioned in Six Seconds in Dallas. Some in Pictures of the
Pain. I think someone wrote an article or Web page about it.
Thank you. So far I have found Charles Givens, and also testimony of
Officer Hutson that he stopped people and screened them from trying to
enter.
If anyone can post any other names of TSBD employees who tried to return
to work but were prevented by police, that would be much appreciated.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
j.raymon...@gmail.com
Commission Exhibit 1361: Signed statements obtained from all persons
known to have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building on
the
date of the assassination.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't forget these>>>
Thank you Tomnln, and thanks to Martha. This Bud's for you.
yeuhd
> Now how did Truly take an accurate roll call?
>
Truly noted Oswald's absence about 1:30 p.m. Since at least 12:45
p.m., the suspect's description (based on Howard Brennan's sighting)
was a man. That eliminated the female employees (not likely suspects
in any case).. Also eliminated were people who were absent that day,
something that was Truly's business as supervisor to know. Also
eliminated were people whom Truly saw outside the building before the
assassination (e.g., Charles Givens), or those whom Truly knew had
left for the day (TSBD president Cason).
But just as important, as Truly said, was a positive reason, not just
an eliminative reason: He had seen Oswald in the building immediately
after the shooting, and Oswald was absent now.
j.raymon...@gmail.com
But just as important, as Truly said, was a positive reason, not just
an eliminative reason: He had seen Oswald in the building immediately
after the shooting, and Oswald was absent now.
Not much of a reason, though. We have seen that employees who went
outside could not get back in. For all Truly or anyone else knew at
the time, the only reason he was not inside the building was because
he had gone outside and then was barred from getting back in, as
happened to Givens.
Anthony Marsh
But that would be logical and disallow the WC defenders to convict
Oswald based on flimsy evidence.
yeuhd
You have to deal with the fact that Truly's thought processes were Truly's
thought processes, and not yours. Shoulda woulda coulda are fine for idle
debate, but in the end, Truly thought about and did something as he did.
Not the way you think he should have. What point are you trying to make by
saying that Truly should have done it the way you think he should have?
You are not Truly. All the shoulda would coulda in the world isn't going
to change that.
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >>> "If there was another witness who produced a description virtually identical to that of Brennan, it hardly impeaches the case against Oswald." <<<
>
> You're quite correct there, John. ....
>
> "Another theory that CTers seem to like quite a bit is the one
> that claims it wasn't really Brennan who gave the first description of
> the Depository sniper to the police just a few minutes after the
> shooting. Conspiracists want to believe, evidently, that either the
> police simply made up out of thin air the description of the assailant
> in the TSBD
Nailed it, David! This description was supposedly based on the
observations of a witness on the ground who saw *part* of someone 6
floors up, yet, yes, there's a *height* (hoo hoo!) and a *weight*
(gimme a break). Common sense sez, No way!
dw
PS Parlor game: Guess Bonnie Ray Williams' height & weight, based on
the *portion* you see of him on the *5th* floor!
.... or .... that it was some other (unknown and never
> identified) person who gave DPD Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer the
> description of the killer....which was a description that almost
> perfectly matched the one Brennan gave in his 11/22 affidavit.
>
> "I don't deny that there was/is some confusion regarding who
> exactly it was who gave the first description of the assassin to the
> police (which was the basis for the initial APB broadcast by the DPD
> at 12:44 PM on 11/22/63). But to believe that it was someone other
> than Brennan who gave Inspector Sawyer the description of the killer
> is to also believe that two strange things occurred in relation to
> this "other" witness (with #2 belonging in a separate "Very Odd And
> Amazingly Coincidental"
> category):
>
> "1.) It was a witness who was never identified (and never
> bothered to come forward to be identified), even though he is
> providing some of the most important info in history.
>
> "2.) This unknown witness' physical description of the assassin
> just happens to perfectly coincide with the info that Brennan supplied
> the police and the Secret Service and (later) the Warren Commission.
>
> "Also -- If there WAS, in fact, yet ANOTHER witness who saw the
> exact same thing that Brennan saw, this would tend to buttress (even
> more) the notion that Oswald, or someone who looked very similar to
> Oswald, was firing from just where Brennan said the man was firing
> from in the Book Depository Building." -- DVP; 11/19/2006
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/a83751f6ce319004
tomnln
There were over 20 people missing.
Did Truly think ALL of them were Suspects?
Most of whom Truly hadn't seen long before he saw Oswald.
claviger
It would be logical for the police to ask all employers in the TSBD
Building at 411 Elm Street if any employees were missing who had
reported to work that day. Oswald and Givens were both reported
missing at the time. The police did try to contact Givens, however he
would not fit the description given by the witness in Dealey Plaza who
saw a man firing a rifle from the 6th floor window. That witness saw a
slender white male in his late 20s/early 30s. Given the situation it
would make sense that Truly went to the front door to see if either
one was standing outside. If both had gone home then the police would
try to find them at their residence. Remember, all Truly was asked to
do is confirm which employees were still in the building. They didn't
ask him to be a detective and solve the crime. In the meantime LHO
shot a police officer and when the police confirmed the suspect was a
missing employee from the TSBD naturally suspicion focused on Oswald.
David Von Pein
Don Willis doesn't like the fact that his precious patsy was seen
shooting at JFK from the SE corner window by Brennan --- so Donald
will claim that the DPD just MADE UP the description sent out over the
radio at 12:44.
Good job, Don. That's the way to "solve" this already-solved case --
just start speculating (some more).
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> Don Willis doesn't like the fact that his precious patsy was seen
> shooting at JFK from the SE corner window by Brennan --- so Donald
> will claim that the DPD just MADE UP the description sent out over the
> radio at 12:44.
No--no witness on the ground would have speculated re height & weight
of suspect 6 floors up, in half-closed window... SO... I claim the DPD
made up the description....
dw
> Good job, Don. That's the way to "solve" this already-solved case --
> just start speculating (some more).
And DVP continues to ignore inconvenient testimony re sources of
height & weight
claviger
The sniper was standing behind a window. What are windows for? To see
through. You can tell if someone is slender or fat, tall or short,
black or white. The description wasn't perfect as to age but LHO did
fit the description. Charles Givens didn't. Do we even know if Tippit
stopped LHO based on this description? Maybe LHO was acting
suspiciously and Tippit though he was burglar casing out a house?
yeuhd
> No--no witness on the ground would have speculated re height & weight
> of suspect 6 floors up, in half-closed window... SO... I claim the DPD
> made up the description....
Sure about that?
Affidavit of Howard Brennan, circa 1–2 p.m., Nov. 22, 1963:
He was just sitting up there looking down apparently waiting for the
same thing I was to see the President. I did not notice anything
unusual about this man. He was a white man in his early 30's, slender,
nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan1.htm
WC testimony of Howard Brennan:
Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the
sixth floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair
complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.
Mr. BELIN. About what weight?
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at — I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.
yeuhd
> There were over 20 people missing.
>
> Did Truly think ALL of them were Suspects?
I'll explain this again to you.
Truly noted about 1:30 p.m. that Oswald was missing. Since at least 12:45
p.m., the suspect seen in the 6th floor window was described by witnesses
as a man. So, Truly could eliminate the missing women (not that they would
be likely suspects in any case). He could eliminate those who were absent
from work that day — it was Truly's business, as superintendent, to know
that. He could eliminate those whom he knew had left for the day (e.g.,
the TSBD president Jack Cason). He could also eliminate those whom he saw
outside the building around the time of the shooting (e.g., Charles
Givens).
But more than the process of elimination, Truly also had a positive reason
for mentioning Oswald: he had seen Oswald in the building shortly after
the shooting — probably one of the very few male employees whom Truly
had seen in the building immediately after the shooting. And now Oswald
was missing.
David Von Pein
>>> "No witness on the ground would have speculated re height & weight of
suspect 6 floors up, in half-closed window. So, I claim the DPD made up
the description." <<<
Just like I said -- Don Willis doesn't like what Brennan said (and Brennan
ALSO said it [re: weight] in his 11/22 affidavit; so I guess that
affidavit is a fraud too, right Don?) -- so you'll just pretend that the
DPD invented the description. Typical CT behavior. You HAVE to pretend
that extraordinary things like that happened. Otherwise, your patsy's
guilty. Simple as that.
But if the DPD wanted to broadcast a description of everybody's favorite
patsy named Oswald -- why not go whole hog and GET IT 100% RIGHT?
Or would that be too "obvious" on the DPD's part, Don?
tomnln
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:45273c79-5c7b-4024...@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Howard Brennan gave a clothing description.
Roy Truly gave identified him by Name.
NEITHER of these were included in the APB.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 10, 7:25 am, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Mar 9, 2:41 pm, David Von Pein<davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:> Don Willis doesn't like the fact that his precious patsy was seen
>>> shooting at JFK from the SE corner window by Brennan --- so Donald
>>> will claim that the DPD just MADE UP the description sent out over the
>>> radio at 12:44.
>>> \
>> of suspect 6 floors up, in half-closed window... SO... I claim the DPD
>> made up the description....
>> dw
>>
>>> Good job, Don. That's the way to "solve" this already-solved case --
>>> just start speculating (some more).
>> And DVP continues to ignore inconvenient testimony re sources of
>
> The sniper was standing behind a window. What are windows for? To see
Again you guess instead of investigate. If you look at the other people
who are behind the windows you can not see enough of those details to
make an accurate description.
Angle of view and intensity of the sunlight on dirty windows also
affects the ability to see through the window.
> through. You can tell if someone is slender or fat, tall or short,
> black or white. The description wasn't perfect as to age but LHO did
Oh yeah, then why did Euins say the shooter was black?
> fit the description. Charles Givens didn't. Do we even know if Tippit
> stopped LHO based on this description? Maybe LHO was acting
> suspiciously and Tippit though he was burglar casing out a house?
>
>
Maybe Oswald was acting suspiciously anyway totally unrelated to burglary.
>
>
>
tomnln
Baker's Lies are recorded HERE>>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
Official Records.
And, You're Stuck with them.
dcwi...@yahoo.com
I reiterate--no witness on the ground would have *speculated* re
height & weight. Brennan was roped in because he was about the only
witness available to "validate" the numbers in the APB. If they could
get Euins to change the shooter's color, they could get Brennan to
supply some hokey numbers....
dw
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >>> "No witness on the ground would have speculated re height & weight of
>
> suspect 6 floors up, in half-closed window. So, I claim the DPD made up
> the description." <<<
>
> Just like I said -- Don Willis doesn't like what Brennan said (and Brennan
> ALSO said it [re: weight] in his 11/22 affidavit; so I guess that
> affidavit is a fraud too, right Don?) -- so you'll just pretend that the
> DPD invented the description. Typical CT behavior. You HAVE to pretend
> that extraordinary things like that happened. Otherwise, your patsy's
> guilty. Simple as that.
>
shooter, they could get Brennan to supply a few numbers. "Fraud"
obviously fits Euins' affidavit, & just a tad less obviously fits
Brennan's. By the time of the hearings, Brennan was also supplying
height numbers!
dw
yeuhd
> Howard Brennan gave a clothing description.
>
> Roy Truly gave identified him by Name.
>
> NEITHER of these were included in the APB.
"Gave identified"?
Can you establish that Brennan gave a clothing description of the
suspect before his sheriff's affidavit circa 1–2 p.m.? See if you can
find anything that says Brennan described the suspect's *clothing*
while Brennan was outside the TSBD. Not that he mighta-shoulda-coulda.
That he did in fact describe the suspect's clothing:
WC testimony of Howard Brennan:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0077a.htm
WC testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0166b.htm
WC testimony of Harold Norman:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0103a.htm
WC testimony of James Jarman:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0108a.htm
WC testimony of Forrest Sorrels:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0179a.htm
WC testimony of W. E. Barnett:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0275b.htm
Roy Truly didn't name Oswald as being missing until about 1:30 p.m.
The ABP describing the suspect went out at 12:45, 12:48, and 12:55 p.m.
yeuhd
> "yeuhd" <NeedlesWax...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> I'll explain this again to you.
>>
>> Truly noted about 1:30 p.m. that Oswald was missing. Since at least 12:45
>> p.m., the suspect seen in the 6th floor window was described by witnesses
>> as a man. So, Truly could eliminate the missing women (not that they would
>> be likely suspects in any case). He could eliminate those who were absent
>> from work that day — it was Truly's business, as superintendent, to know
>> that. He could eliminate those whom he knew had left for the day (e.g.,
>> the TSBD president Jack Cason). He could also eliminate those whom he saw
>> outside the building around the time of the shooting (e.g., Charles
>> Givens).
>>
>> But more than the process of elimination, Truly also had a positive reason
>> for mentioning Oswald: he had seen Oswald in the building shortly after
>> the shooting — probably one of the very few male employees whom Truly
>> had seen in the building immediately after the shooting. And now Oswald
>> was missing.
>
> Baker's Lies are recorded HERE>>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
Non sequitur of the day. What does Marrion Baker have to do with what
I wrote above about Roy Truly's naming Oswald as missing?
tomnln
On Mar 10, 7:42 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> Howard Brennan gave a clothing description.
>
> Roy Truly gave identified him by Name.
>
> NEITHER of these were included in the APB.
"Gave identified"?
Can you establish that Brennan gave a clothing description of the suspect
before his sheriff's affidavit circa 1–2 p.m.? See if you can find
anything that says Brennan described the suspect's *clothing* while
Brennan was outside the TSBD. Not that he mighta-shoulda-coulda. That he
did in fact describe the suspect's clothing:
WC testimony of Howard Brennan:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0077a.htm
Sorrels didn't return to the TSBD until 12:25.
WC testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0166b.htm
Sawyer can't remember that Brennan wore Construction Cover-Alls & a Hard
Hat???
WC testimony of Harold Norman:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0103a.htm
WC testimony of James Jarman:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0108a.htm
Norman, Jarman & Williams all Ran to the West end of the TSBD overlooking
the Grassy Knoll just like Everyone else did.
WHY didn't they holler down to the cops that the cops were running the wrong
way?
WC testimony of Forrest Sorrels:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0179a.htm
Sorrels went to Parkland With the motorcade. Sorrels didn't return to the
TSBD until 12:55.
WC testimony of W. E. Barnett:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0275b.htm
Knowing that officer J M Smith first went to the grassy knoll behind the
fence & met a Secret Service Impersonator, you want
us to believe that Smith got back to the front door within 3 minutes of the
shooting???
If a witness doesn't give a clothing description, the cop will Always ask
for it.
SO, WHO gave the suspect's description And, To WHOM???
tomnln
O K;
Tell us why truly did NOT include the other 22 missing employees???
David Von Pein
Donald Willis still doesn't like the FACT that Brennan IDed his prized
patsy.
Poor Donald. His patsy's getting fingered for the murder that EVERY
SCRAP of evidence says he committed.
Poor Don.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 10, 5:41 pm, David Von Pein<davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> suspect 6 floors up, in half-closed window. So, I claim the DPD made up
>> the description."<<<
>>
>> Just like I said -- Don Willis doesn't like what Brennan said (and Brennan
>> ALSO said it [re: weight] in his 11/22 affidavit; so I guess that
>> affidavit is a fraud too, right Don?) -- so you'll just pretend that the
>> DPD invented the description. Typical CT behavior. You HAVE to pretend
>> that extraordinary things like that happened. Otherwise, your patsy's
>> guilty. Simple as that.
>>
> I reiterate--if they could get Euins to change the color of the
> shooter, they could get Brennan to supply a few numbers. "Fraud"
> Brennan's. By the time of the hearings, Brennan was also supplying
> height numbers!
> dw
>
I think Euins was simply confused and saw the black man staring out of
the fifth floor window.
tomnln
"tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:cJStl.1605$0E....@newsfe15.iad...
"yeuhd" <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:71c85c5d-2cca-4819...@s19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 10, 7:42 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> Howard Brennan gave a clothing description.
>
> Roy Truly gave identified him by Name.
>
> NEITHER of these were included in the APB.
"Gave identified"?
Can you establish that Brennan gave a clothing description of the suspect
before his sheriff's affidavit circa 1–2 p.m.? See if you can find
anything that says Brennan described the suspect's *clothing* while
Brennan was outside the TSBD. Not that he mighta-shoulda-coulda. That he
did in fact describe the suspect's clothing:
WC testimony of Howard Brennan:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0077a.htm
Sorrels didn't return to the TSBD until 12:25.
MAKE THAT 12;55
yeuhd
> O K;
> Tell us why truly did NOT include the other 22 missing employees???
I've told you twice now in this very thread. I refer you to my posts
above of March 7, 4:03 pm, and March 10, 7:37 pm.
yeuhd
> SO, WHO gave the suspect's description And, To WHOM???
While outside the TSBD, Howard Brennan gave a description of the
suspect to Sawyer. See my post above of Feb 28, 1:13 pm.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/5b96f3e0d9a60f6b
You still haven't given any evidence to support your claim that
Brennan gave a clothing description of the suspect before his
sheriff's affidavit circa 1–2 p.m. Not that he shoulda-woulda-coulda.
That he in fact did.
Nor have you given any evidence to support your claim that Roy Truly
named Oswald as missing to police before the APB went out at 12:45,
12:48 and 12:55 p.m.
tomnln
"yeuhd" <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:71c85c5d-2cca-4819...@s19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 10, 7:42 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> Howard Brennan gave a clothing description.
>
> Roy Truly gave identified him by Name.
>
> NEITHER of these were included in the APB.
"Gave identified"?
Can you establish that Brennan gave a clothing description of the suspect
before his sheriff's affidavit circa 1–2 p.m.? See if you can find
anything that says Brennan described the suspect's *clothing* while
Brennan was outside the TSBD. Not that he mighta-shoulda-coulda. That he
did in fact describe the suspect's clothing:
WC testimony of Howard Brennan:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0077a.htm
Sorrels didn't return to the TSBD until 12:25.
MAKE THAT 12:55
dcwi...@yahoo.com
Typical LNer response--when cornered... ignore the post & generalize!
dw
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> On 3/11/2009 8:00 AM, dcwill...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 10, 5:41 pm, David Von Pein<davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>>>> "No witness on the ground would have speculated re height& weight of
> >> suspect 6 floors up, in half-closed window. So, I claim the DPD made up
> >> the description."<<<
>
> >> Just like I said -- Don Willis doesn't like what Brennan said (and Brennan
> >> ALSO said it [re: weight] in his 11/22 affidavit; so I guess that
> >> affidavit is a fraud too, right Don?) -- so you'll just pretend that the
> >> DPD invented the description. Typical CT behavior. You HAVE to pretend
> >> that extraordinary things like that happened. Otherwise, your patsy's
> >> guilty. Simple as that.
>
> > I reiterate--if they could get Euins to change the color of the
> > shooter, they could get Brennan to supply a few numbers. "Fraud"
> > obviously fits Euins' affidavit,& just a tad less obviously fits
> > Brennan's. By the time of the hearings, Brennan was also supplying
> > height numbers!
> > dw
>
> I think Euins was simply confused and saw the black man staring out of
> the fifth floor window.
Yes, I should amend the above to say, "If they could get Euins to
change the color of his *suspect*...." We can speculate about who &
what Euins saw, but the fact remains that he was persuaded to alter
his observations....
dw
tomnln
You must have the "Failure Disease"
"EXCUSITIS".
tomnln
On Mar 11, 9:18 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> SO, WHO gave the suspect's description And, To WHOM???
While outside the TSBD, Howard Brennan gave a description of the
suspect to Sawyer. See my post above of Feb 28, 1:13 pm.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/5b96f3e0d9a60f6b
WRONG AGAIN yeuhd;
Sawyer states; "current witness can't remember that".
See line 7 below from Volume VI page 321.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say then?
Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30,
5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of
Winchester."
Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a
rifle?"
Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle."
Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description ?"
Mr. SAWYER. "Current witness can't remember that."
Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and
after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was broadcast
and no further information at this time."
Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast?
Mr. SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means.
Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log---I don't see anything more
under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as
far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir?
Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though.
I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that
department.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that
depository?
Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he
was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was
supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description
on him.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?
Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the
information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't
know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over
taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from
the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy
and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book
Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing
from the building.
He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some
information about the man that did the shooting.
321
David Von Pein
>>> "I think Euins was simply confused and saw the black man staring out
of the fifth floor window." <<<
Exactly.
And the very same thing happened with Arnold Rowland and the black man he
said he saw on the 6th Floor.
David Von Pein
>>> "Typical LNer response--when cornered... ignore the post &
generalize!" <<<
Poor Don. His patsy was fingered for the crime. And Don just doesn't
like that at all.
Now all Donald needs to do is to prove that gobs and gobs of people--
from the DPD to the FBI to the WC to ordinary citizen Howard Brennan--
got together to tell so many bald-faced lies about Don's precious
patsy in the wake of the assassination.
I'm guessing that Donald will resort to more speculation and guesswork
when attempting to PROVE that Brennan lied like a dog when he
positively IDed Don's prized patsy in front of the Warren Commission.
Let's wait and see.
yeuhd
> WRONG AGAIN yeuhd;
>
> Sawyer states; "current witness can't remember that".
Sawyer's source for the description was Howard Brennan. I refer you to
my post above of Feb 18, 1:13 pm, where this was already discussed.
dcwi...@yahoo.com
Typical LNer response--ignore the post & generalize!
dw
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> >>> "I think Euins was simply confused and saw the black man staring out
>
> of the fifth floor window." <<<
>
> Exactly.
Thank you, David. Which confusion means that Euins' affidavit & all his
subsequent testimony etc. (which did not mention this confusion re a black
man) were fraudulent. Excellent, David! Exactly!
dw
tomnln
HAHAHAHAHA
Mr. BELIN. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade?
Just what were your duties?
Mr. SAWYER. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from
Akard to Harwood.
Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I headed west on Main Street.
Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade
passed?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and
completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to get
back in the car.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your car was parked?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection
of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main
Street on Ervay. It runs parallel to Main Street.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade
passed then?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until
the crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed
west on Main Street.
Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street?
Mr. SAWYER. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time
I got in.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main
Street?
Mr. SAWYER. I just went real slow down the street because of people
crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of
activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is? Who broadcast
it?
Mr. SAWYER. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the
dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas
School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the
conversation. That
316
Page 317
is what I gathered. He may not have said Texas School Book Depository,
but the Texas School Book Depository was mentioned in the broadcasts that
were made at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember?
Mr. SAWYER. Channel 2, I am sure.
Mr. BELIN. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all,
or not, in your police number system?
Mr. SAWYER. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I
think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio.
Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief
Curry's car?
Mr. . SAWYER. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it
was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could
recognize his voice, yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?
Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the
officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some
shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the
fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were
directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a
shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked
in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance,
and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other
man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about
the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around
and didn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the
front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the
elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the
top floor.
Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?
Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there
into a warehouse area?
Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage
area?
Mr. SAWYER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area
there?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with
people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.
Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then?
317
Page 318
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so
I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you
mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted
two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or
out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure
that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already
covered.
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the
building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were
officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done
by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or
out.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let
anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down
from the fourth floor or top floor?
Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.
Mr. BELIN. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were
driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off the
building, I believe you said that before you got to the building or at
about the time you got to the building, you thought that you heard
something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here
of November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you
have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, and
then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call this
Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript of the radio log, and
it reads right now--we will try and restaple it later on--but right now,
Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned.
You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are near
the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station Break," is
that right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then the next thing that goes on, it is Number 1, which is
Chief Curry's number, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made
you might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital,
officers, Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the
underpass, see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have
Parkland stand by." You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-l," which is marked in by
someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time to
get your men in there. Put every one of my men there." Then there is a
call back to Curry from 531, which is your home station, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right. I really didn't quite understand all of it.
Mr. BELIN. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move
all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard and try
to determine what happened and hold everything secure until homicide and
other investigators can get in there."
Mr. SAWYER. That is Decker speaking there.
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Mr. BELIN. That is Decker?
Mr. SAWYER That's right.
Mr. BELIN. You believe that is what Decker said?
Mr. SAWYER. That is what he said, yes, that's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SAWYER. His number is Dallas-l, and they are talking to 1. They have
that confused.
Mr. BELIN. Well, Curry is 1 also?
Mr. SAWYER That's right.
Mr. BELIN. But I think they were riding in the same car?
Mr. SAWYER. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's
voice here, and that is what he had to say.
Mr. BELIN. Well, then, the comment is made "Notify Station 5----"
Mr. SAWYER. That is the Sheriffs Office.
Mr. BELIN. "To move all men available out of my Department back into
the railroad yard----"
And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station
5?
Mr. SAWYER Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that
quotes, "It looks like the President has been hit."
Then there doesn't appear to be anything pertaining to where the shots
might have come from until we see at 12:34, there is a call from officer,
it says No. 136, that states, "A passer-by states the shots came from
Texas School Book Depository Building.
This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book
Depository, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the
Texas School Book Depository building?
Mr. SAWYER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at
least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?
Mr. SAWYER. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well,
you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?
Mr. SAWYER. Officers.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?
Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from
the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the
source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School
Book Depository, at that particular time?
Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was
a reference also made to the overpass.
Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything
else to add?
Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about
the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or
what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that
correct?
Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I
believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.
Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did
you have to wait for it to come down?
Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.
Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there.
How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took
you to?
Mr. SAWYER Just took a quick look around and made sure there was
nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
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Page 320
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up,
it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left,
got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you
heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around
the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the
front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed
off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building
sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of
my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front
door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the
front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to
anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop
traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the
building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that
were there? Even before you instructed them?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything,
and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the
Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.
Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people
standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?
Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been
stopped?
Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then
what did you
Mr. SAWYER. I set up a command post in front. The various officers
were bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I
saw that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these
people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take this
information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were standing
there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his name at one
time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered the use of an
interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he said, for
interrogating these people.
Mr. BELIN. That is located down the street a little bit there?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, it is catty-corner across the street.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SAWYER. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School
Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of
officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses and
take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them. They were more
or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get away.
And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the
Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits.
Mr. BELIN. How many witnesses were there around there during this
period of time that you talked to?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there,
I would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with
information of one kind or another.
Mr. BELIN. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do you
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notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come in?
What number did you use?
Mr. SAWYER. I used No. 9. That is my regular call No. 9.
Mr. BELIN. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come
in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right?
Mr. SAWYER. That is the first one after 12:40, sir.
Mr. BELIN. The first one after 12:30?
Mr. SAWYER. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true.
Mr. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with
the next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you,
as No. 9, called in, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Would you read what it says that you said there?
Mr. SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book
Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up
and bring them down here."
Mr. BELIN. Was that said before or after you came down from the elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. That was after.
Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the
front door and not let anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER. That was after.
Mr. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time?
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45.
yeuhd
testimony by Sawyer, because nothing in Sawyer's testimony contradicts
that Howard Brennan was his source of the suspect's description.
Vincent Bugliosi:
… Brennan wrote in his 1987 book that he spoke with Sawyer before his
encounter with Sorrels and that he gave Sawyer the same description he
later gave Sorrels (Brennan with Cherryholmes, "Eyewitness to
History", pp.17–18, 104 note 5).
[Sylvia] Meagher’s claim that Sawyer did not remember speaking to
Brennan or anyone who resembled
him is only a quarter-truth. Although he didn’t recall Brennan by
name, when he was asked about the person who supplied the description,
Sawyer testified, “That description came to me mainly from one witness
who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor
of the building and claimed to have been able to see the man up
there” (6 H 322). Asked to provide details about the witness, Sawyer
remembered that he was a “white man” who was “a few years either way”
of thirty-five. Sawyer also recalled sending the witness “with an
escort to the sheriff’s office to give fuller or more complete
detail.” (6 H 322–323) Only two witnesses who claimed to have seen the
gunman firing the rifle were known to police at that time—the fifteen-
year-old black youth, Amos Euins, and the forty-five-year-old white
construction worker, Howard Brennan. Clearly, Sawyer is referring to
Brennan.
tomnln
WHY wouldn't he give it to Sawyer???
"yeuhd" <Needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d046bf1-c485-4333...@c11g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 12, 5:57 pm, David Von Pein<davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>> "I think Euins was simply confused and saw the black man staring out
>> of the fifth floor window."<<<
>>
>> Exactly.
>
> subsequent testimony etc. (which did not mention this confusion re a black
> man) were fraudulent. Excellent, David! Exactly!
>
Fraudulent is not the correct word. Inaccurate, as most witness reports
are.
> dw
yeuhd
> Don't you remember that Brennan gave a clothing description???
>
> WHY wouldn't he give it to Sawyer???
The APBs had no clothing description. So, we have to work our way
backward from that fact. Please explain what you are trying to imply.
For some reason you really don't want Howard Brennan to be the source
of Sawyer's ABPs, despite the clear evidence that he was. Why?
If the Dallas police were trying to frame Oswald, one would think that
they would not only give a clothing description, but more accurate
height, weight, and age information. Hell, they are trying to frame
Oswald, why not just name Oswald as the suspect and be through with it.
tomnln
A police officer questioning a witness ALWAYS asks for a clothing
description.
See Volume XXIII page 855;
Officer 261 asks the Dispatcher for a clothing description.
Sawyer said "Mr. SAWYER. "Current witness can't remember that."
WRONG AGAIN yeuhd;
Sawyer states; "current witness can't remember that".
See line 7 below from Volume VI page 321.