Mulvaney said U.S. military aid for Ukraine was held up pending Ukraine’s investigation of Democrats.

[Rudy Canoza]

Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, told reporters that
the release of military aid to Ukraine this summer was linked in part to
White House demands that Ukraine’s government investigate what he called
corruption by Democrats in the 2016 American presidential campaign.

It was the first time a White House official has publicly acknowledged what
a parade of current and former administration officials have told
impeachment investigators on Capitol Hill.

“The look-back to what happened in 2016 certainly was part of the thing
that he was worried about in corruption with that nation,” Mr. Mulvaney
told reporters, referring to Mr. Trump. “And that is absolutely appropriate.”

He said that the aid was initially withheld because, “Everybody knows this
is a corrupt place,” and the president was demanding Ukraine clean up its
own government. But Mr. Trump also told Mr. Mulvaney that he was concerned
about what he thought was Ukraine’s role in the 2016 campaign.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/17/us/politics/donald-trump-impeachment-news.html

Well, duh! I mean, just fucking DUH! *OF COURSE* that's the reason.
There was no real interest on the part of the Trump regime to push Ukraine
*generally* to investigate and crack down on corruption. It was *always*
and *only* about smearing the Democrats.

Hartung knows this, and he applauds it, because of his own deep personal
corruption.

[Michael Ejercito]

"Rudy Canoza" wrote in message news:352qF.68906$XA2....@fx05.iad...

>Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, told reporters that
>the release of military aid to Ukraine this summer was linked in part to
>White House demands that Ukraine’s government investigate what he called
>corruption by Democrats in the 2016 American presidential campaign.

You have a problem with that?


Michael


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/18/2019 9:31 AM, Michael Ejercito wrote:
>
>
> "Rudy Canoza"  wrote in message news:352qF.68906$XA2....@fx05.iad...
>
>> Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, told reporters that
>> the release of military aid to Ukraine this summer was linked in part to
>> White House demands that Ukraine’s government investigate what he called
>> corruption by Democrats in the 2016 American presidential campaign.
>
>   You have a problem with that?

All right-thinking Americans have a problem with it. We know that there is
no Ukraine-connected "corruption by Democrats" to be investigated. You
know it, too, even though you aren't a right-thinking American.

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 09:31:35 -0700, "Michael Ejercito"
<meje...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>"Rudy Canoza" wrote in message news:352qF.68906$XA2....@fx05.iad...
>
>>Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, told reporters that
>>the release of military aid to Ukraine this summer was linked in part to
>>White House demands that Ukraine’s government investigate what he called
>>corruption by Democrats in the 2016 American presidential campaign.
>
> You have a problem with that?
>
>
>Michael

I hope he doesnt...snicker...else we will start talking about Obama
and Hillaries roles in the Ukraine......laughlaughlaughlaughlaugh!!

__

"Poor widdle Wudy...mentally ill, lies constantly, doesnt know who he is, or even what gender "he" is.

No more pathetic creature has ever walked the earth. But...he is locked into a mental hospital for the safety of the public.

Which is a very good thing."

Asun rauhassa, valmistaudun sotaan.


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Siri Cruise]

In article <qocpc7$hrh$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Michael Ejercito" <meje...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> >the release of military aid to Ukraine this summer was linked in part to
> >White House demands that Ukraine’s government investigate what he called
> >corruption by Democrats in the 2016 American presidential campaign.
>
> You have a problem with that?

What's the other part it was linked to?

'He robbed a bank!'
'Yeah, but he obeyed all the traffic laws on his getaway.'

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The first law of discordiamism: The more energy This post / \
to make order is nore energy made into entropy. insults Islam. Mohammed

[Josh Rosenbluth]

On 10/18/2019 9:31 AM, Michael Ejercito wrote:
>
>

> "Rudy Canoza"  wrote in message news:352qF.68906$XA2....@fx05.iad...
>
>> Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, told reporters
>> that the release of military aid to Ukraine this summer was linked in
>> part to White House demands that Ukraine’s government investigate what
>> he called corruption by Democrats in the 2016 American presidential
>> campaign.
>
>   You have a problem with that?

Since that "corruption" included investigating a conspiracy theory that
it was Ukraine, and not Russia, that hacked the DNC servers in 2016,
yes. That's a big problem.

[Gronk]

Michael Ejercito wrote:
>
>
> "Rudy Canoza"  wrote in message news:352qF.68906$XA2....@fx05.iad...
>
>> Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, told reporters
>> that the release of military aid to Ukraine this summer was linked in
>> part to White House demands that Ukraine’s government investigate what
>> he called corruption by Democrats in the 2016 American presidential
>> campaign.
>
>   You have a problem with that?

Anyone aware of the quid pro quo concept does.

[Gronk]

Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 09:31:35 -0700, "Michael Ejercito"
> <meje...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Rudy Canoza" wrote in message news:352qF.68906$XA2....@fx05.iad...
>>
>>> Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, told reporters that
>>> the release of military aid to Ukraine this summer was linked in part to
>>> White House demands that Ukraine’s government investigate what he called
>>> corruption by Democrats in the 2016 American presidential campaign.
>>
>> You have a problem with that?
>

> I hope he doesnt...snicker...else we will start talking about Obama
> and Hillaries roles in the Ukraine......laughlaughlaughlaughlaugh!!

Tell us about that ->

[NoBody]

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:29:53 -0600, Gronk <inva...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

You're asking liberals to use intellectual honesty. History has shown
that they don't ever do that.

[God's Sock Puppet]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:53:29 -0700, in talk.politics.guns Gunner Asch
<gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I hope he doesnt...snicker...else we will start talking about Obama
>and Hillaries roles in the Ukraine......laughlaughlaughlaughlaugh!!

I suppose you can talk about Obama's and Hillary's roles any time you
wish. To the best of my knowledge, neither of them ever conditioned
military aid on opening an investigation into any of their political
counterparts... which is why the Donald will be impeached.

Essentially, aside from the indisputable fact that he was a nigger,
Obama ran about the cleanest administration we have ever seen. If the
worst infraction you can find is that a secretary of state used a
personal email server, it's good record, I'd say.

Obama was the best president we have had in my lifetime and I was born
in the FDR administration. You're welcome to your differing opinion;
however, I would invite you to share specifics.

[God's Sock Puppet]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:29:49 -0400, in talk.politics.guns NoBody
<NoB...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>You're asking liberals to use intellectual honesty. History has shown
>that they don't ever do that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "intellectual honesty"; do you happen to
have any examples to share?

[Gronk]

We're asking conservatives to use their brains. History shows they never have.

[BeamMeUpScotty]

Placing a hold on FOREIGN AID due to questions of corruption should be
standard procedure....



--
That's Karma


*Rumination*
54 - Nothing scares a Socialist more than free people exercising their
freedom.

[Just Wondering]

On 10/30/2019 11:30 AM, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
> On 10/30/19 12:06 AM, Gronk wrote:
>> NoBody wrote:

>>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:29:53 -0600, Gronk wrote:
>>>> Michael Ejercito wrote:
>>>>> "Rudy Canoza"  wrote in message news:352qF.68906$XA2....@fx05.iad...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, told reporters
>>>>>> that the release of military aid to Ukraine this summer was linked in
>>>>>> part to White House demands that Ukraine’s government investigate
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> he called corruption by Democrats in the 2016 American presidential
>>>>>> campaign.
>>>>>
>>>>>     You have a problem with that?
>>>>
>>>> Anyone aware of the quid pro quo concept does.
>>>
>>> You're asking liberals to use intellectual honesty.  History has shown
>>> that they don't ever do that.
>>>
>>
>> We're asking conservatives to use their brains. History shows they
>> never have.
>
> Placing a hold on FOREIGN AID due to questions of corruption should be
> standard procedure....

Placing a hold on foreign aid other than for humanitarian or necessary
defensive purposes should be standard procedure, period.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should
not be standard procedure.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 11:28 AM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy
rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

Bullshit. If we've decided to grant the aid, then there should be no
"hold" placed on it except for good cause. Demanding a bullshit purely
political "investigation" on the American president's political opponents
is not a valid reason, ever.

--
If you're not reading the New York Times, you're not following the news.

[Just Wondering]

Since that's never happened, why mention it?

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>> On 10/30/2019 11:28 AM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> On 10/30/2019 11:30 AM, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
>>>
>>>> Placing a hold on FOREIGN AID due to questions of corruption should be
>>>> standard procedure....
>>>
>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid other than for humanitarian or necessary
>>> defensive purposes should be standard procedure, period.
>>
>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should
>> not be standard procedure.
>
> Since that's never happened,

That's exactly what Trump did, you lying sleazy rent-skip chaser.

[M I Wakefield]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:w1muF.7449$mn5....@fx16.iad...

That's exactly what Trump did to Ukraine: Mulvaney confirmed it.

And that's why Trump's on the fast-track to impeachment.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 1:17 PM, M I Wakefield wrote:
> F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:
>

>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>
>> > Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an >
>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should >
>> not be standard procedure.
>
>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>
> That's exactly what Trump did to Ukraine:  Mulvaney confirmed it.

Mulvaney, Sondland, Volker - they all confirmed it.

It is truly astonishing just how deeply in denial the right-wingnuts are on
this. All the bullshit about "coup," "treason," "espionage" is just
incredible.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

Those are the allegations made against Trump. You do not know whether
those allegations are true or false.

[Just Wondering]

On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

> On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>>
>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>
>> Since that's never happened,
>

> That's exactly what Trump did.

Funny, there's no evidence of it. The transcript doesn't
support it. The parties to the conversation deny it. The
facts show that the foreign aid was held up only a very short
time, and that the hold was released without Ukraine having
to do anything. In fact, the hold was released before the
Ukraine even knew there had been a hold. It's all just
another nothingburger.

[M I Wakefield]

"Just Wondering" wrote in message news:GbnuF.4$2m...@fx26.iad...

> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
> > On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
> >> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
> >>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
> >>> should not be standard procedure.

> >> Since that's never happened,
> >
> > That's exactly what Trump did.

> Funny, there's no evidence of it.

“I would like you to do us a favor though,” Mr. Trump responded, beginning a
series of pointed requests. The president pressed Mr. Zelensky to use the
help of Attorney General William P. Barr in opening an investigation of a
company involved in the beginnings of the F.B.I. inquiry of Russia’s 2016
election interference. He also wanted a corruption investigation connected
to former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., a Democratic rival.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/us/politics/ukraine-transcript-trump.html

Mick Mulvaney then confirmed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQFAh_MU69E

[jim]

Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>
>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an unfounded
>>> conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should not be standard
>>> procedure.
>>
>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>
> Those are the allegations made against Trump. You do not know whether those
> allegations are true or false.

You also do not know whether the allegations
pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 2:23 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>> On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should
>>>> not be standard procedure.
>>>
>>> Since that's never happened,
>>
>> That's exactly what Trump did.
>
> Funny, there's no evidence of it.

There is irrefutable evidence of it.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 3:37 PM, jim lied:

There *are* no allegations of "corruption by Biden." There's nothing but
Trump's innuendo lies.

--
"I wish I could have felched Saul Alinsky, but he was already dead"
"jim" sjed...@mwt.net

[Josh Rosenbluth]

Of course I can't be sure. But, what evidence supports the allegations
against Biden?

[Just Wondering]

There are only two people who know, Donald Trump and
Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and they are both emphatic that
it never happened.

[Just Wondering]

Biden admits he threatened to withhold a billion dollars in aid
to Ukraine unless the prosecutor investigating his son was fired.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4 at time 1:20.

[Just Wondering]

No threat of withholding foreign aid. Ukraine HAD interfered
in the election. It was perfectly legally and proper to
investigate that interference - even if the investigation
should point toward a former vice president. Or are you
saying Biden should get a pass for prior illegal conduct
just because he threw his creepy hat into the election ring?

[Just Wondering]

On 10/30/2019 5:09 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

> On 10/30/2019 2:23 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>>> On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>
>>>> Since that's never happened,
>>>
>>> That's exactly what Trump did.
>>
>> Funny, there's no evidence of it.
>
> There is irrefutable evidence of it.

So you say, now's the time for you to present that evidence for
critical examination.

[Just Wondering]

Words straight from Biden's own mouth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4 at 1:20
Biden brags about doing the very thing that House Dems
falsely accuse Trump of.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

Shokin has chosen not to prosecute Burisma (where Biden's son served on
the board). The evidence indicates Biden called for withholding aid
because Shokin was so corrupt he wouldn't prosecute.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

There are many other people who would know if it happened, not the least
of which is Giuliani. He needs to testify under oath. Plus, Mulvaney
already said it happened.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

On 10/30/2019 5:06 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 10/30/2019 3:36 PM, M I Wakefield wrote:
>> "Just Wondering"  wrote in message news:GbnuF.4$2m...@fx26.iad...
>>
>>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>>> > On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> >> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>> >>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>> >>> should not be standard procedure.
>>
>>> >> Since that's never happened,
>>> >
>>> > That's exactly what Trump did.
>>
>>> Funny, there's no evidence of it.
>>
>> “I would like you to do us a favor though,” Mr. Trump responded,
>> beginning a series of pointed requests. The president pressed Mr.
>> Zelensky to use the help of Attorney General William P. Barr in
>> opening an investigation of a company involved in the beginnings of
>> the F.B.I. inquiry of Russia’s 2016 election interference. He also
>> wanted a corruption investigation connected to former Vice President
>> Joseph R. Biden Jr., a Democratic rival.
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/us/politics/ukraine-transcript-trump.html
>> Mick Mulvaney then confirmed it:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQFAh_MU69E
>
> No threat of withholding foreign aid.  Ukraine HAD interfered
> in the election.

That's a conspiracy theory without any supporting evidence.

> It was perfectly legally and proper to
> investigate that interference - even if the investigation
> should point toward a former vice president.  Or are you
> saying Biden should get a pass for prior illegal conduct
> just because he threw his creepy hat into the election ring?

Of course not. But, there is no evidence to support investigating
Biden. And even if there were, it is way too convenient that the only
people Trump wants investigates are his political rivals.

[Just Wondering]

I don't know of any such evidence. But if what you describe is true,
it means that Biden - who as VP was NOT responsible for setting US
public policy - threatened to withhold aid already pledged, for the
express purpose of meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs.

[Just Wondering]

Are you trying to say that when two heads of state have a private
phone conversation, "many other people" eavesdrop on both sides of
the conversation?

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 4:45 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 3:06 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>> On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>>>> On 10/30/2019 11:28 AM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>> On 10/30/2019 11:30 AM, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Placing a hold on FOREIGN AID due to questions of corruption should
>>>>>> be standard procedure....
>>>>>
>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid other than for humanitarian or necessary
>>>>> defensive purposes should be standard procedure, period.
>>>>
>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should
>>>> not be standard procedure.
>>>
>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>
>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know whether
>> those allegations are true or false.
>
> There are only two people who know, Donald Trump and
> Volodymyr Zelenskyy,

That's a lie. There are the numerous people who listened to the call, some
of whom have already said there was a /quid pro quo/ offer from Trump.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 4:52 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

The prosecutor was *not* investigating Biden's son, nor was he
investigating the Burisma company. You know this, you sleazy liar.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 5:06 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 3:36 PM, M I Wakefield wrote:

>> F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:
>>

>>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>>> > On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> >> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>> >>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival >>>
>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>
>>> >> Since that's never happened,
>>> >
>>> > That's exactly what Trump did.
>>
>>> Funny, there's no evidence of it.
>>
>> “I would like you to do us a favor though,” Mr. Trump responded,
>> beginning a series of pointed requests. The president pressed Mr.
>> Zelensky to use the help of Attorney General William P. Barr in opening
>> an investigation of a company involved in the beginnings of the F.B.I.
>> inquiry of Russia’s 2016 election interference. He also wanted a
>> corruption investigation connected to former Vice President Joseph R.
>> Biden Jr., a Democratic rival.
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/us/politics/ukraine-transcript-trump.html
>> Mick Mulvaney then confirmed it:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQFAh_MU69E
>
> No threat of withholding foreign aid.

Already conveyed and already known to the Ukrainians, you liar.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 5:16 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 6:09 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>> On 10/30/2019 4:45 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> On 10/30/2019 3:06 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>>>> On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>>>>>> On 10/30/2019 11:28 AM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>>>> On 10/30/2019 11:30 AM, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Placing a hold on FOREIGN AID due to questions of corruption should
>>>>>>>> be standard procedure....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid other than for humanitarian or
>>>>>>> necessary defensive purposes should be standard procedure, period.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>>>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>
>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know whether
>>>> those allegations are true or false.
>>>
>>> There are only two people who know, Donald Trump and
>>> Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and they are both emphatic that
>>> it never happened.
>>
>> There are many other people who would know if it happened, not the least
>> of which is Giuliani.  He needs to testify under oath.  Plus, Mulvaney
>> already said it happened.
>
> Are you trying to say that when two heads of state have a private
> phone conversation, "many other people" eavesdrop on both sides of
> the conversation?

*Numerous* NSC staff listen in on the calls as part of their job. Trump
knows this.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 5:14 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 6:09 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>> On 10/30/2019 4:52 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> On 10/30/2019 4:37 PM, jim wrote:
>>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>>>>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know whether
>>>>> those allegations are true or false.
>>>>
>>>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>>>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>>>
>>> Biden admits he threatened to withhold a billion dollars in aid
>>> to Ukraine unless the prosecutor investigating his son was fired.
>>> See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4 at time 1:20.
>>
>> Shokin has chosen not to prosecute Burisma (where Biden's son served on
>> the board).  The evidence indicates Biden called for withholding aid
>> because Shokin was so corrupt he wouldn't prosecute.
>
> I don't know of any such evidence.

You do know of it.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 5:09 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 5:23 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>> On 10/30/2019 3:37 PM, jim wrote:
>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>> unfounded
>>>>>> conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should not be
>>>>>> standard
>>>>>> procedure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>
>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know whether
>>>> those allegations are true or false.
>>>
>>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>>
>> Of course I can't be sure.  But, what evidence supports the allegations
>> against Biden?
>
> Words straight from Biden's own mouth.

No. Nothing about Biden's demand that the prosecutor be fired was
"corrupt." He was voicing the official policy of the U.S. government,
along with the British, French and German governments.

Biden was not demanding the firing of the prosecutor because of an
investigation of Biden's son. The son was not under investigation. You

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 5:08 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 5:09 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>> On 10/30/2019 2:23 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>>>> On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM,  F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>>>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since that's never happened,
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly what Trump did.
>>>
>>> Funny, there's no evidence of it.
>>
>> There is irrefutable evidence of it.
>
> So you say

So the New York Times - the gold standard - and other media have shown us.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 5:09 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
> On 10/30/2019 4:45 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>> On 10/30/2019 3:06 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>>> On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>>>>> On 10/30/2019 11:28 AM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>>> On 10/30/2019 11:30 AM, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Placing a hold on FOREIGN AID due to questions of corruption should
>>>>>>> be standard procedure....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid other than for humanitarian or
>>>>>> necessary defensive purposes should be standard procedure, period.
>>>>>
>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>
>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>
>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know whether
>>> those allegations are true or false.
>>
>> There are only two people who know, Donald Trump and
>> Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and they are both emphatic that
>> it never happened.
>
> There are many other people who would know if it happened, not the least of
> which is Giuliani.

Giuliani is not believed to have listened to the call. However, he knows
all the same, because he was instructing the actual State Department
professionals on it.

> He needs to testify under oath.  Plus, Mulvaney already
> said it happened.

Sondland and Volker said it happened.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 5:06 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 3:36 PM, M I Wakefield wrote:

>> F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:
>>

>>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>>> > On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> >> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>> >>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival >>>
>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>
>>> >> Since that's never happened,
>>> >
>>> > That's exactly what Trump did.
>>
>>> Funny, there's no evidence of it.
>>
>> “I would like you to do us a favor though,” Mr. Trump responded,
>> beginning a series of pointed requests. The president pressed Mr.
>> Zelensky to use the help of Attorney General William P. Barr in opening
>> an investigation of a company involved in the beginnings of the F.B.I.
>> inquiry of Russia’s 2016 election interference. He also wanted a
>> corruption investigation connected to former Vice President Joseph R.
>> Biden Jr., a Democratic rival.
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/us/politics/ukraine-transcript-trump.html
>> Mick Mulvaney then confirmed it:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQFAh_MU69E
>
> No threat of withholding foreign aid.  Ukraine HAD interfered
> in the election.

Ukraine did *NOT* interfere in the election. Trump's own advisors have
told him that repeatedly. There is no evidence whatever that Ukraine
interfered in the election, you fucking liar.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

On 10/30/2019 5:14 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 10/30/2019 6:09 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>> On 10/30/2019 4:52 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> On 10/30/2019 4:37 PM, jim wrote:
>>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>>>>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know
>>>>> whether those allegations are true or false.
>>>>
>>>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>>>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>>>
>>> Biden admits he threatened to withhold a billion dollars in aid
>>> to Ukraine unless the prosecutor investigating his son was fired.
>>> See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4 at time 1:20.
>>
>> Shokin has chosen not to prosecute Burisma (where Biden's son served
>> on the board).  The evidence indicates Biden called for withholding
>> aid because Shokin was so corrupt he wouldn't prosecute.
>
> I don't know of any such evidence.

https://tinyurl.com/yyt7z5qr and https://tinyurl.com/y5uq9c8b

> But if what you describe is true,
> it means that Biden - who as VP was NOT responsible for setting US
> public policy - threatened to withhold aid already pledged, for the
> express purpose of meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs.

Because of Russia, a stable Ukraine not controlled by a corrupt
government is in the USA's national security interest.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

It wasn't private. Additionally, there are other things which would
have to occur for the charges to be true. Things that Giuliani and
Mulvaney have first-hand knowledge of.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 5:14 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 6:09 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>> On 10/30/2019 4:52 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> On 10/30/2019 4:37 PM, jim wrote:
>>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>>>>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know whether
>>>>> those allegations are true or false.
>>>>
>>>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>>>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>>>
>>> Biden admits he threatened to withhold a billion dollars in aid
>>> to Ukraine unless the prosecutor investigating his son was fired.
>>> See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4 at time 1:20.
>>
>> Shokin has chosen not to prosecute Burisma (where Biden's son served on
>> the board).  The evidence indicates Biden called for withholding aid
>> because Shokin was so corrupt he wouldn't prosecute.
>
> I don't know of any such evidence.

You would know it if you didn't get your "news" from Fox and other
right-wingnut lie sites.

> But if what you describe is true,
> it means that Biden - who as VP was NOT responsible for setting US
> public policy - threatened to withhold aid already pledged, for the
> express purpose of meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs.

Biden was acting on behalf of the entire U.S. foreign policy establishment.
It was official U.S. policy to get that corrupt prosecutor fired.
Biden's son was not being investigated then, nor was the Burisma company.

--
If you're not reading the New York Times, you're not following the news.

[jim]

Do you believe that giving Hunter a $50,000/month
job for which he has no qualification or experience did
not involve corruption?
There is no indication that he actually did any work
to earn this kind of pay.
Was it just a coincidence that his father was in charge
of the $5 billion in aid that has been funneled into the
Ukraine since Hunter was given the job. .

Does that not look like a kickback scheme that
should be investigated?

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/30/2019 7:20 PM, jim lied:

> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 6:23 PM:

>> On 10/30/2019 3:37 PM, jim lied:

>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>> unfounded
>>>>>> conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should not be
>>>>>> standard
>>>>>> procedure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>
>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know whether
>>>> those
>>>> allegations are true or false.
>>>
>>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>>
>> Of course I can't be sure.  But, what evidence supports the allegations
>> against
>> Biden?
>
> Do you believe that giving Hunter a $50,000/month
> job for which he has no qualification or experience did
> not involve corruption?

Do you have any evidence that it did? No, of course not.

>  There is no indication that he actually did any work
> to earn this kind of pay.

You are not in a position to know.

> Was it just a coincidence that his father was in charge
> of the $5 billion in aid that has been funneled into the
> Ukraine since Hunter was given the job.

No, Joe Biden was *not* "in charge" of the aid.

> Does that not look like a kickback scheme that
> should be investigated?

No, because Joe Biden was not in charge of the aid, and there is no
evidence that anyone attempted to influence him through the son.

There is nothing to investigate, and you know it. You also know that
Ukraine did not meddle in the 2016 election; Russia did.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

On 10/30/2019 7:20 PM, jim wrote:
> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 6:23 PM:
>> On 10/30/2019 3:37 PM, jim wrote:
>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>> unfounded
>>>>>> conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should not
>>>>>> be standard
>>>>>> procedure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>
>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know
>>>> whether those
>>>> allegations are true or false.
>>>
>>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>>
>> Of course I can't be sure.  But, what evidence supports the
>> allegations against
>> Biden?
>
> Do you believe that giving Hunter a $50,000/month
> job for which he has no qualification or experience did
> not involve corruption?

On the part of Joe Biden? No, I do not believe that absent evidence.

>  There is no indication that he actually did any work
> to earn this kind of pay.
> Was it just a coincidence that his father was in charge
> of the $5 billion in aid that has been funneled into the
> Ukraine since Hunter was given the job.

It was probably not a coincidence that Burisma chose Hunter because his
dad was VP. However, if Joe was in on it, there would be evidence.

> Does that not look like a kickback scheme that
> should be investigated?

Not without some evidence.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <DApuF.3002$3F1....@fx01.iad>, Just Wondering <J...@jw.com> wrote:

> No threat of withholding foreign aid. Ukraine HAD interfered
> in the election. It was perfectly legally and proper to
> investigate that interference - even if the investigation
> should point toward a former vice president. Or are you
> saying Biden should get a pass for prior illegal conduct
> just because he threw his creepy hat into the election ring?

Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent
and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not
omnipotent and the party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying,
moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts. The keyword here is
blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually
contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently
claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a
Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party
discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is
white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever
believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made
possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which
is known in Newspeak as doublethink.

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The first law of discordiamism: The more energy This post / \
to make order is nore energy made into entropy. insults Islam. Mohammed

[jim]

Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 10:07 PM:
> On 10/30/2019 7:20 PM, jim wrote:
>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 6:23 PM:
>>> On 10/30/2019 3:37 PM, jim wrote:
>>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an unfounded
>>>>>>> conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should not be
>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>> procedure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump. You do not know whether those
>>>>> allegations are true or false.
>>>>
>>>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>>>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>>>
>>> Of course I can't be sure. But, what evidence supports the allegations against
>>> Biden?
>>
>> Do you believe that giving Hunter a $50,000/month
>> job for which he has no qualification or experience did
>> not involve corruption?
>
> On the part of Joe Biden? No, I do not believe that absent evidence.
>

It has the appearance of corruption on the part of Joe Biden
And there is evidence. The Ukraine prosecutor that Biden had fired
has stated in a Austrian court affidavit:
" Poroshenko dismissed Shokin because he was investigating the Ukrainian gas
company where Hunter Biden was a member of the board of directors. However,
there is no evidence that Ukraine was investigating either of the Bidens at the
time of Shokin’s dismissal."
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-10-30/ukraine-trump-impeachment

>> There is no indication that he actually did any work
>> to earn this kind of pay.
>> Was it just a coincidence that his father was in charge
>> of the $5 billion in aid that has been funneled into the
>> Ukraine since Hunter was given the job.
>
> It was probably not a coincidence that Burisma chose Hunter because his dad was
> VP. However, if Joe was in on it, there would be evidence.
>

Are you claiming you believe Joe was unaware that
his son was probably benefiting from the enormous
amount of aid money he was in charge of sending to
Ukraine?
You can claim to believe that but the voters won't.

>> Does that not look like a kickback scheme that
>> should be investigated?
>
> Not without some evidence.

On its face it certainly has the appearance of corruption.
Where have the billion$ in aid that were given to Ukraine,
since 2014, gone?
How much did Burisma benefit in exchange for the
payout to Hunter Biden.

[jim]

Just Wondering wrote on 10/30/2019 6:52 PM:

> On 10/30/2019 4:37 PM, jim wrote:
>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>
>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an unfounded
>>>>> conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should not be
>>>>> standard procedure.
>>>>
>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>
>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump. You do not know whether those
>>> allegations are true or false.
>>
>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>

> Biden admits he threatened to withhold a billion dollars in aid
> to Ukraine unless the prosecutor investigating his son was fired.

You are flat out lying.
Biden has never admitted that the prosecutor
was investigating his son.

If Biden had admitted it or there was any good
evidence that it was true he would be arrested.
There is no clear evidence that the prosecutor's
firing had anything to do with Hunter.

[jim]

Just Wondering wrote on 10/30/2019 7:14 PM:
> it means that Biden - who as VP was NOT responsible for setting US
> public policy - threatened to withhold aid already pledged, for the
> express purpose of meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs.

Yes that is certainly immoral and in violation
of International law, but in the USA that is standard
policy and the people who do that are called patriots.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/31/2019 5:30 AM, jim lied:

> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 10:07 PM:

>> On 10/30/2019 7:20 PM, jim lied:

>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 6:23 PM:

>>>> On 10/30/2019 3:37 PM, jim lied:

>>>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>>>> unfounded
>>>>>>>> conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should not be
>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>> procedure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know
>>>>>> whether those
>>>>>> allegations are true or false.
>>>>>
>>>>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>>>>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>>>>
>>>> Of course I can't be sure.  But, what evidence supports the allegations
>>>> against
>>>> Biden?
>>>
>>> Do you believe that giving Hunter a $50,000/month
>>> job for which he has no qualification or experience did
>>> not involve corruption?
>>
>> On the part of Joe Biden?  No, I do not believe that absent evidence.
>>
>
> It has the appearance of corruption on the part of Joe Biden
> And there is evidence. The Ukraine prosecutor that Biden had fired
> has stated in a Austrian court affidavit:
> " Poroshenko dismissed Shokin because

Shokin *IS* the prosecutor that Joe Biden demanded be fired. He did not
make a statement about himself in the third person, you fucking liar.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

On 10/31/2019 5:30 AM, jim wrote:
> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 10:07 PM:
>> On 10/30/2019 7:20 PM, jim wrote:

{snip}

>>> Do you believe that giving Hunter a $50,000/month
>>> job for which he has no qualification or experience did
>>> not involve corruption?
>>
>> On the part of Joe Biden?  No, I do not believe that absent evidence.
>
> It has the appearance of corruption on the part of Joe Biden
> And there is evidence. The Ukraine prosecutor that Biden had fired
> has stated in a Austrian court affidavit:
> " Poroshenko dismissed Shokin because he was investigating the Ukrainian
> gas
> company where Hunter Biden was a member of the board of directors. However,
>  there is no evidence that Ukraine was investigating either of the
> Bidens at the
> time of Shokin’s dismissal."
> https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-10-30/ukraine-trump-impeachment

Exactly. "There is no evidence" other than Shokin's claim.

>>>   There is no indication that he actually did any work
>>> to earn this kind of pay.
>>> Was it just a coincidence that his father was in charge
>>> of the $5 billion in aid that has been funneled into the
>>> Ukraine since Hunter was given the job.
>>
>> It was probably not a coincidence that Burisma chose Hunter because
>> his dad was
>> VP.  However, if Joe was in on it, there would be evidence.
>>
>
> Are you claiming you believe Joe was unaware that
> his son was probably benefiting from the enormous
> amount of aid money he was in charge of sending to
> Ukraine?

How did Hunter Biden benefit from the aid money?

>>> Does that not look like a kickback scheme that
>>> should be investigated?
>>
>> Not without some evidence.
>
> On its face it certainly has the appearance of corruption.
> Where have the billion$  in aid that were given to Ukraine,
> since 2014, gone?
> How much did Burisma benefit in exchange for the
> payout to Hunter Biden.

What evidence is there that aid was mishandled or Burisma benefited by
hiring Hunter Biden?

[jim]

Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 10:48 AM:
> On 10/31/2019 5:30 AM, jim wrote:
>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 10:07 PM:
>>> On 10/30/2019 7:20 PM, jim wrote:
>
> {snip}
>
>>>> Do you believe that giving Hunter a $50,000/month
>>>> job for which he has no qualification or experience did
>>>> not involve corruption?
>>>
>>> On the part of Joe Biden? No, I do not believe that absent evidence.
>>
>> It has the appearance of corruption on the part of Joe Biden
>> And there is evidence. The Ukraine prosecutor that Biden had fired
>> has stated in a Austrian court affidavit:
>> " Poroshenko dismissed Shokin because he was investigating the Ukrainian gas
>> company where Hunter Biden was a member of the board of directors. However,
>> there is no evidence that Ukraine was investigating either of the Bidens at the
>> time of Shokin’s dismissal."
>> https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-10-30/ukraine-trump-impeachment
>
> Exactly. "There is no evidence" other than Shokin's claim.
>

A sworn affidavit is good enough evidence to justify investigating.

>>>> There is no indication that he actually did any work
>>>> to earn this kind of pay.
>>>> Was it just a coincidence that his father was in charge
>>>> of the $5 billion in aid that has been funneled into the
>>>> Ukraine since Hunter was given the job.
>>>
>>> It was probably not a coincidence that Burisma chose Hunter because his dad was
>>> VP. However, if Joe was in on it, there would be evidence.
>>>
>>
>> Are you claiming you believe Joe was unaware that
>> his son was probably benefiting from the enormous
>> amount of aid money he was in charge of sending to
>> Ukraine?
>
> How did Hunter Biden benefit from the aid money?
>
>>>> Does that not look like a kickback scheme that
>>>> should be investigated?
>>>
>>> Not without some evidence.
>>
>> On its face it certainly has the appearance of corruption.
>> Where have the billion$ in aid that were given to Ukraine,
>> since 2014, gone?
>> How much did Burisma benefit in exchange for the
>> payout to Hunter Biden.
>
> What evidence is there that aid was mishandled or Burisma benefited by hiring
> Hunter Biden?

There has been evidence that aid has been mishandled
https://observer.com/2016/05/the-u-s-is-missing-millions-in-ukraine/

Much of the disappeared aid money leads back to the
same guy who has a controlling interest in Burisma.
http://romaninukraine.com/ukraine-burisma-story-is-massive-involves-billions-of-imf-and-us-funds-looted-and-lost-by-bank-connected-to-burisma-holdings/

[Michael Ejercito]

"Josh Rosenbluth" wrote in message news:qpdbl7$abh$1...@josh.motzarella.org...

So you concede that threatening to withhold aid appropriated by Congress
is a proper foreign diplomacy tactic.


Michael


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Rudy Canoza]

It is proper when done to promote *American* strategic interests. It is
improper when done to promote the president's personal political interests.
See the difference yet, you fuckstain?

[M I Wakefield]

"Rudy Canoza" wrote in message news:BpEuF.4$0X...@fx09.iad...

L'etat, c'est moi.
- Louis XIV of France, and Donald J. Trump

[Josh Rosenbluth]

On 10/31/2019 9:47 AM, Michael Ejercito wrote:
>
>

> "Josh Rosenbluth"  wrote in message
> news:qpdbl7$abh$1...@josh.motzarella.org...

{snip}

>>> But if what you describe is true,
>>> it means that Biden - who as VP was NOT responsible for setting US
>>> public policy - threatened to withhold aid already pledged, for the
>>> express purpose of meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs.
>
>> Because of Russia, a stable Ukraine not controlled by a corrupt
>> government is in the USA's national security interest.
>   So you concede that threatening to withhold aid appropriated by
> Congress is a proper foreign diplomacy tactic.

It is if it is in our national security interest. It is not if it is
for personal gain.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

On 10/31/2019 9:44 AM, jim wrote:
> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 10:48 AM:
>> On 10/31/2019 5:30 AM, jim wrote:
>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 10:07 PM:
>>>> On 10/30/2019 7:20 PM, jim wrote:
>>
>> {snip}
>>
>>>>> Do you believe that giving Hunter a $50,000/month
>>>>> job for which he has no qualification or experience did
>>>>> not involve corruption?
>>>>
>>>> On the part of Joe Biden?  No, I do not believe that absent evidence.
>>>
>>> It has the appearance of corruption on the part of Joe Biden
>>> And there is evidence. The Ukraine prosecutor that Biden had fired
>>> has stated in a Austrian court affidavit:
>>> " Poroshenko dismissed Shokin because he was investigating the
>>> Ukrainian gas
>>> company where Hunter Biden was a member of the board of directors.
>>> However,
>>>   there is no evidence that Ukraine was investigating either of the
>>> Bidens at the
>>> time of Shokin’s dismissal."
>>> https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-10-30/ukraine-trump-impeachment
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. "There is no evidence" other than Shokin's claim.
>>
>
> A sworn affidavit is good enough evidence to justify investigating.

Not from Shokin it isn't.

I buy the aid was likely stolen and Burisma's owner is implicated. I
see no evidence that Joe or Hunter Biden played any part.

[Steve ignores fools and losers]

On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:06:37 -0700, Josh Rosenbluth
<no...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>> On 10/30/2019 11:28 AM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> On 10/30/2019 11:30 AM, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Placing a hold on FOREIGN AID due to questions of corruption should
>>>>> be standard procedure....
>>>>
>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid other than for humanitarian or
>>>> necessary defensive purposes should be standard procedure, period.
>>>

>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>
>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>
>Those are the allegations made against Trump. You do not know whether
>those allegations are true or false.

I've not seen any evidense of it.

[Cy Ubinger]

That's a lie, Shitbag Steve. The sworn statements of all those people who
testified to the intelligence committee are evidence - mutually
corroborating evidence. You've obviously never been on jury duty, Shitbag
Steve. If you had been, Shitbag Steve, the judge would have instructed you
that sworn testimony is evidence. Your job as a juror, Shitbag Steve,
would be to evaluate that evidence, and determine which of it, if any, you
found persuasive. But unmistakably, Shitbag Steve, sworn testimony is
evidence.

Are all right-wingnuts as stupid as you, Shitbag Steve?

[Josh Rosenbluth]

On 10/31/2019 11:49 AM, Steve ignores fools and losers wrote:

The call summary and Mulvaney's admission are at the top of the list.
We also have the opening statements from Taylor and Vindman.

[Just Wondering]

On 10/30/2019 6:12 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

> On 10/30/2019 5:06 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 10/30/2019 3:36 PM, M I Wakefield wrote:

>>> "Just Wondering"  wrote in message news:GbnuF.4$2m...@fx26.iad...

>>>
>>>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>>>> > On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> >> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates
>>>> an >>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political
>>>> rival >>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>
>>>> >> Since that's never happened,
>>>> >

>>>> > That's exactly what Trump did.
>>>
>>>> Funny, there's no evidence of it.
>>>
>>> “I would like you to do us a favor though,” Mr. Trump responded,
>>> beginning a series of pointed requests. The president pressed Mr.
>>> Zelensky to use the help of Attorney General William P. Barr in
>>> opening an investigation of a company involved in the beginnings of
>>> the F.B.I. inquiry of Russia’s 2016 election interference. He also
>>> wanted a corruption investigation connected to former Vice President
>>> Joseph R. Biden Jr., a Democratic rival.
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/us/politics/ukraine-transcript-trump.html
>>> Mick Mulvaney then confirmed it:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQFAh_MU69E
>>

>> No threat of withholding foreign aid.  Ukraine HAD interfered
>> in the election.
>

> That's a conspiracy theory without any supporting evidence.

Supporting evidence:
Kyiv Court: Lawmaker's Release Of Manafort Documents Interfered In U.S.
Election December 12, 2018
A Kyiv court said that a Ukrainian lawmaker and a top anticorruption
official’s decision in 2016 to publish documents linked to President
Donald Trump’s then-campaign chairman amounted to interference in the
U.S. presidential election.
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-court-ruling-election-interference/29652728.html

>> It was perfectly legally and proper to
>> investigate that interference - even if the investigation
>> should point toward a former vice president.  Or are you
>> saying Biden should get a pass for prior illegal conduct
>> just because he threw his creepy hat into the election ring?
>

> Of course not.  But, there is no evidence to support
> investigating Biden.

Supporting evidence from Biden's own mouth at 1:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4

[Just Wondering]

That's what investigations are for, to gather evidence.

[Just Wondering]

On 10/30/2019 6:47 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

> Ukraine did *NOT* interfere in the election.  Trump's own
> advisors have told him that repeatedly.  There is no evidence
> whatever that Ukraine interfered in the election

[Just Wondering]

On 10/30/2019 6:43 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
> On 10/30/2019 5:08 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 10/30/2019 5:09 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>>> On 10/30/2019 2:23 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>>>>> On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>>>>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since that's never happened,
>>>>>

>>>>> That's exactly what Trump did.
>>>>
>>>> Funny, there's no evidence of it.
>>>

>>> There is irrefutable evidence of it.
>>
>> So you say, now's the time for you to present that evidence
>> for critical examination.
>
> So the New York Times - the gold standard - and other media
> have shown us.

Then it should be no problem for you to present the evidence.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/31/2019 12:38 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 6:47 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>
>> Ukraine did *NOT* interfere in the election.  Trump's own advisors have
>> told him that repeatedly.  There is no evidence whatever that Ukraine
>> interfered in the election
>
> Kyiv Court: Lawmaker's Release Of Manafort Documents Interfered In U.S.
> Election

Like *that* is credible.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/31/2019 12:40 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/30/2019 6:43 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>> On 10/30/2019 5:08 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> On 10/30/2019 5:09 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>>>> On 10/30/2019 2:23 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>>>>>> On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>>>> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>>>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival
>>>>>>>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since that's never happened,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's exactly what Trump did.
>>>>>
>>>>> Funny, there's no evidence of it.
>>>>
>>>> There is irrefutable evidence of it.
>>>
>>> So you say, now's the time for you to present that evidence
>>> for critical examination.
>>
>> So the New York Times - the gold standard - and other media
>> have shown us.
>
> Then it should be no problem for you to present the evidence.

The New York Times already has done, and I have already cited all of it
here. Pay attention, you fucking sleaze.

[jim]

Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 1:46 PM:
>>>>
>>>> On its face it certainly has the appearance of corruption.
>>>> Where have the billion$ in aid that were given to Ukraine,
>>>> since 2014, gone?
>>>> How much did Burisma benefit in exchange for the
>>>> payout to Hunter Biden.
>>>
>>> What evidence is there that aid was mishandled or Burisma benefited by hiring
>>> Hunter Biden?
>>
>> There has been evidence that aid has been mishandled
>> https://observer.com/2016/05/the-u-s-is-missing-millions-in-ukraine/
>>
>> Much of the disappeared aid money leads back to the
>> same guy who has a controlling interest in Burisma.
>> http://romaninukraine.com/ukraine-burisma-story-is-massive-involves-billions-of-imf-and-us-funds-looted-and-lost-by-bank-connected-to-burisma-holdings/
>
>
> I buy the aid was likely stolen and Burisma's owner is implicated. I see no
> evidence that Joe or Hunter Biden played any part.

This will look like corruption to voters:

Hundreds of millions of dollars that was sent to Ukraine care of Joe Biden
disappears
into the pockets of the guy who owns the company that hires Hunter Biden
for $50K/month even though Hunter has no experience or qualifications for
the job.

[jim]

That is correct. It should be investigated, but you should
stop lying about what Biden has said.

[M I Wakefield]

"Steve ignores fools and losers" wrote in message
news:v2bmrep6iv2ddgtp4...@4ax.com...

Then you should grab the collar of your shirt, at the nape of your neck, and
pull as hard as you can until your head comes out of your ass.

Oh ... *evidence.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/31/2019 12:57 PM, jim lied:
:

> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 1:46 PM:
>>>>>
>>>>> On its face it certainly has the appearance of corruption.
>>>>> Where have the billion$  in aid that were given to Ukraine,
>>>>> since 2014, gone?
>>>>> How much did Burisma benefit in exchange for the
>>>>> payout to Hunter Biden.
>>>>
>>>> What evidence is there that aid was mishandled or Burisma benefited by
>>>> hiring
>>>> Hunter Biden?
>>>
>>> There has  been evidence that aid has been mishandled
>>> https://observer.com/2016/05/the-u-s-is-missing-millions-in-ukraine/
>>>
>>> Much of the disappeared aid money leads back to the
>>> same guy who has a controlling interest in Burisma.
>>> http://romaninukraine.com/ukraine-burisma-story-is-massive-involves-billions-of-imf-and-us-funds-looted-and-lost-by-bank-connected-to-burisma-holdings/
>>>
>>
>>
>> I buy the aid was likely stolen and Burisma's owner is implicated.  I see no
>> evidence that Joe or Hunter Biden played any part.
>
> This will look like corruption to voters:
>
> Hundreds of millions of dollars that was sent to Ukraine care of Joe Biden

No, that's a lie. It was not "care of" Joe Biden, and he had no role
whatever in distributing the aid.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/31/2019 1:04 PM, jim lied:

> F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>> On 10/31/2019 6:34 AM, jim lied:

>>> F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>> On 10/30/2019 4:37 PM, jim lied:

>>>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/30/2019 4:06 PM:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an
>>>>>>>> unfounded
>>>>>>>> conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival should not be
>>>>>>>> standard procedure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know
>>>>>> whether those
>>>>>> allegations are true or false.
>>>>>
>>>>> You also do not know whether the allegations
>>>>> pf corruption by Bidens are unfounded
>>>>
>>>> Biden admits he threatened to withhold a billion dollars in aid
>>>> to Ukraine unless the prosecutor investigating his son was fired.

No, that's a lie. The prosecutor *was not* investigating Biden's son.

>>>
>>>
>>> You are flat out  lying.
>>> Biden has never admitted that the prosecutor
>>> was investigating his son.
>>>
>>> If Biden had admitted it or there was any good
>>> evidence that it was true he would be arrested.
>>> There is no clear evidence that the prosecutor's
>>> firing had anything to do with Hunter.
>>
>> That's what investigations are for, to gather evidence.
>
> That is correct. It should be investigated, but you should
> stop lying about what Biden has said.

*You* should stop lying about what he said, liar "jim."

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/31/2019 1:11 PM, M I Wakefield wrote:
> Shitbag Steve lied:

>
>> On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:06:37 -0700, Josh Rosenbluth
>> <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>

>> >On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>> >> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>
>> >>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates an >>>
>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political rival >>>
>> should not be standard procedure.
>
>> >> Since that's never happened, why mention it?
>
>> >Those are the allegations made against Trump.  You do not know whether
>> >those allegations are true or false.
>
>> I've not seen any evidense of it.
>
> Then you should grab the collar of your shirt, at the nape of your neck,
> and pull as hard as you can until your head comes out of your ass.
>
> Oh ... *evidence.

Shitbag Steve is another of those insane right-wingnut lunatics, like
Hartung, who blabber about "actual" evidence, showing that they have no
fucking clue what evidence is. Sworn testimony *IS* evidence, as any trial
judge would instruct members of a jury.

We have sworn statements from some dozen Trump regime officials, all of
which corroborate one another, saying there was a /quid pro quo/. We also
have certain known facts about which the insane right-wingnut idiots keep
lying:

* Hunter Biden was not under investigation in Ukraine when Joe Biden
demanded the firing of the corrupt and incompetent prosecutor Shokin
* there is no "D.N.C. server" in Ukraine and there never was
* Ukraine did not meddle in the 2016 election; Russia did
* Joe Biden was not "in charge of" aid to Ukraine
* Trump asked for a *personal*, *political* favor from Zelensky;
not something for American national interests
* The Ukrainians knew at the time of the call that the aid had been held

All of these are irrefutable facts.

[BeamMeUpScotty]

Except when we parse them.... for instance, while HUNTER BIDEN may not
have been under investigation directly the company he worked for
supposedly was under investigation or at least corruption in general was
being investigated and in the end it looks bad when HUNTER BIDEN like
his father is an idiot and screw-up and a company pays him $50K a month,
then it starts to become a warning sign that something is wrong and if
they're looking for corruption then the best place to look is where
there's money paid out....

FAKE employees or FAKE do nothing jobs crated, or powerful people who
are profiting in some way..... be it a family member being placed in a
job or some other scam.

So your facts are refuted, by the real facts.




--
That's Karma


Is it strange that Hillary has been connected with 3 of the 4
"impeachment" attempts that have happened in the last 250 years?

[Josh Rosenbluth]

I was referring specifically to Trump's belief that Ukraine, not Russia,
hacked the DNC server.

>>> It was perfectly legally and proper to
>>> investigate that interference - even if the investigation
>>> should point toward a former vice president.  Or are you
>>> saying Biden should get a pass for prior illegal conduct
>>> just because he threw his creepy hat into the election ring?
>>
>> Of course not.  But, there is no evidence to support investigating Biden.
>
> Supporting evidence from Biden's own mouth at 1:20
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4

Biden has long acknowledged he pressured Ukraine to fire the prosecutor.
That is not evidence of illegal conduct.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

On 10/31/2019 12:57 PM, jim wrote:
> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 1:46 PM:
>>>>>
>>>>> On its face it certainly has the appearance of corruption.
>>>>> Where have the billion$  in aid that were given to Ukraine,
>>>>> since 2014, gone?
>>>>> How much did Burisma benefit in exchange for the
>>>>> payout to Hunter Biden.
>>>>
>>>> What evidence is there that aid was mishandled or Burisma benefited
>>>> by hiring Hunter Biden?
>>>
>>> There has  been evidence that aid has been mishandled
>>> https://observer.com/2016/05/the-u-s-is-missing-millions-in-ukraine/
>>>
>>> Much of the disappeared aid money leads back to the
>>> same guy who has a controlling interest in Burisma.
>>> http://romaninukraine.com/ukraine-burisma-story-is-massive-involves-billions-of-imf-and-us-funds-looted-and-lost-by-bank-connected-to-burisma-holdings/
>>
>> I buy the aid was likely stolen and Burisma's owner is implicated.  I
>> see no evidence that Joe or Hunter Biden played any part.
>
> This will look like corruption to voters:
>
> Hundreds of millions of dollars that was sent to Ukraine care of Joe
> Biden

What money was sent "care of Joe Biden."

> disappears
> into the pockets of the guy who owns the company that hires Hunter Biden
> for $50K/month even though Hunter has no experience or qualifications for
> the job.

I can;t help it if the voters mistakenly think that is evidence.

[AlleyCat]

On 10/31/2019 2:50 PM, #ReamMeUpTheAssSnotty, brain-damaged fucktard who
rode his scooter into a tree while not wearing a helmet, stupidly bawled
and lied:

No.

[jim]

Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 4:54 PM:
> On 10/31/2019 12:57 PM, jim wrote:
>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 1:46 PM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On its face it certainly has the appearance of corruption.
>>>>>> Where have the billion$ in aid that were given to Ukraine,
>>>>>> since 2014, gone?
>>>>>> How much did Burisma benefit in exchange for the
>>>>>> payout to Hunter Biden.
>>>>>
>>>>> What evidence is there that aid was mishandled or Burisma benefited by
>>>>> hiring Hunter Biden?
>>>>
>>>> There has been evidence that aid has been mishandled
>>>> https://observer.com/2016/05/the-u-s-is-missing-millions-in-ukraine/
>>>>
>>>> Much of the disappeared aid money leads back to the
>>>> same guy who has a controlling interest in Burisma.
>>>> http://romaninukraine.com/ukraine-burisma-story-is-massive-involves-billions-of-imf-and-us-funds-looted-and-lost-by-bank-connected-to-burisma-holdings/
>>>
>>>
>>> I buy the aid was likely stolen and Burisma's owner is implicated. I see no
>>> evidence that Joe or Hunter Biden played any part.
>>
>> This will look like corruption to voters:
>>
>> Hundreds of millions of dollars that was sent to Ukraine care of Joe Biden
>
> What money was sent "care of Joe Biden."
>

Billions in aid money was delivered care of Joe Biden
If Biden says you don't get the aid until you jump through thus
hoop that is what happens.

>> disappears
>> into the pockets of the guy who owns the company that hires Hunter Biden
>> for $50K/month even though Hunter has no experience or qualifications for
>> the job.
>
> I can;t help it if the voters mistakenly think that is evidence.

sure nobody can help it
and
thus Trump gets re-elected.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/31/2019 4:06 PM, jim lied:

> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 4:54 PM:

>> On 10/31/2019 12:57 PM, jim lied:

>>> Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 1:46 PM:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On its face it certainly has the appearance of corruption.
>>>>>>> Where have the billion$  in aid that were given to Ukraine,
>>>>>>> since 2014, gone?
>>>>>>> How much did Burisma benefit in exchange for the
>>>>>>> payout to Hunter Biden.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What evidence is there that aid was mishandled or Burisma benefited by
>>>>>> hiring Hunter Biden?
>>>>>
>>>>> There has  been evidence that aid has been mishandled
>>>>> https://observer.com/2016/05/the-u-s-is-missing-millions-in-ukraine/
>>>>>
>>>>> Much of the disappeared aid money leads back to the
>>>>> same guy who has a controlling interest in Burisma.
>>>>> http://romaninukraine.com/ukraine-burisma-story-is-massive-involves-billions-of-imf-and-us-funds-looted-and-lost-by-bank-connected-to-burisma-holdings/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I buy the aid was likely stolen and Burisma's owner is implicated.  I
>>>> see no
>>>> evidence that Joe or Hunter Biden played any part.
>>>
>>> This will look like corruption to voters:
>>>
>>> Hundreds of millions of dollars that was sent to Ukraine care of Joe Biden
>>
>> What money was sent "care of Joe Biden."
>>
>
> Billions in aid money was delivered care of Joe Biden

You said that already. It's a lie. No aid money was delivered "care of"
Biden, and he wasn't in charge of securing or distributing it in any way.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

That continues to be your speculation. True or not, it has no bearing
on whether Biden should be investigated.

[Just Wondering]

Nice post hac argument you've got there. Nothing above suggests
that's what you were referring to.

>
>>>> It was perfectly legally and proper to
>>>> investigate that interference - even if the investigation
>>>> should point toward a former vice president.  Or are you
>>>> saying Biden should get a pass for prior illegal conduct
>>>> just because he threw his creepy hat into the election ring?
>>>
>>> Of course not.  But, there is no evidence to support investigating
>>> Biden.
>>
>> Supporting evidence from Biden's own mouth at 1:20
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4
>
> Biden has long acknowledged he pressured Ukraine to fire
> the prosecutor.  That is not evidence of illegal conduct.

It's evidence to support investigating Biden.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/31/2019 4:55 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy

rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

> On 10/31/2019 3:54 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>> On 10/31/2019 12:23 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>> On 10/30/2019 6:12 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>>>> On 10/30/2019 5:06 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>> On 10/30/2019 3:36 PM, M I Wakefield wrote:

>>>>>> F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:
>>>>>>

>>>>>>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>>>>>>> > On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>>>> >> On 10/30/2019 12:30 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Placing a hold on foreign aid until the recipient investigates
>>>>>>> an >>> unfounded conspiracy theory or digs up dirt on a political
>>>>>>> rival >>> should not be standard procedure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >> Since that's never happened,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > That's exactly what Trump did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Funny, there's no evidence of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “I would like you to do us a favor though,” Mr. Trump responded,
>>>>>> beginning a series of pointed requests. The president pressed Mr.
>>>>>> Zelensky to use the help of Attorney General William P. Barr in
>>>>>> opening an investigation of a company involved in the beginnings of
>>>>>> the F.B.I. inquiry of Russia’s 2016 election interference. He also
>>>>>> wanted a corruption investigation connected to former Vice President
>>>>>> Joseph R. Biden Jr., a Democratic rival.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/us/politics/ukraine-transcript-trump.html
>>>>>> Mick Mulvaney then confirmed it:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQFAh_MU69E
>>>>>
>>>>> No threat of withholding foreign aid.  Ukraine HAD interfered
>>>>> in the election.
>>>>
>>>> That's a conspiracy theory without any supporting evidence.
>>>
>>> Supporting evidence:
>>> Kyiv Court: Lawmaker's Release Of Manafort Documents Interfered In U.S.
>>> Election  December 12, 2018

This is bullshit. We don't care what a Ukrainian court said. It has no
bearing on anything here.

>>
>>>>> It was perfectly legally and proper to
>>>>> investigate that interference - even if the investigation
>>>>> should point toward a former vice president.  Or are you
>>>>> saying Biden should get a pass for prior illegal conduct
>>>>> just because he threw his creepy hat into the election ring?
>>>>
>>>> Of course not.  But, there is no evidence to support investigating Biden.
>>>
>>> Supporting evidence from Biden's own mouth at 1:20
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4
>>
>> Biden has long acknowledged he pressured Ukraine to fire
>>  the prosecutor.  That is not evidence of illegal conduct.
>
> It's evidence to support investigating Biden.

It's not, because the facts of that pressure are already well know. Biden
was conveying the *official* American policy, not his own personal
preference. That policy was the same for all of our European allies: they
wanted the prosecutor fired, too.

The corrupt incompetent prosecutor was *not* investigating either Hunter
Biden or Burisma Holdings when Biden demanded he be fired. You *know*
this, Hansen, you fucking sleaze.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

I thought you knew that Trump requested an investigation into
Crowdstrike and the DNC server in the call summary, so that the context
of my statement was understood. But since you didn't, I have no
clarified what I originally meant.

>>>>> It was perfectly legally and proper to
>>>>> investigate that interference - even if the investigation
>>>>> should point toward a former vice president.  Or are you
>>>>> saying Biden should get a pass for prior illegal conduct
>>>>> just because he threw his creepy hat into the election ring?
>>>>
>>>> Of course not.  But, there is no evidence to support investigating
>>>> Biden.
>>>
>>> Supporting evidence from Biden's own mouth at 1:20
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4
>>
>> Biden has long acknowledged he pressured Ukraine to fire
>>  the prosecutor.  That is not evidence of illegal conduct.
>
> It's evidence to support investigating Biden.

To the contrary, the evidence points to Biden wanting to end Ukrainian
corruption.

[Rudy Canoza]

On 10/31/2019 5:17 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:
> On 10/31/2019 4:55 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>> On 10/31/2019 3:54 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>>> On 10/31/2019 12:23 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>> On 10/30/2019 6:12 PM, Josh Rosenbluth wrote:

>>>>> On 10/30/2019 5:06 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>>>>>> On 10/30/2019 3:36 PM, M I Wakefield wrote:

>>>>>>> F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On 10/30/2019 2:06 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:

>>>>>>>> > On 10/30/2019 1:04 PM, F. Mark Hansen <fmh...@comcast.net>, sleazy rent-skip chaser, possible polygamist and irrational gun nut, lied:

>> Nice post hac [sic] argument you've got there.  Nothing above suggests

>> that's what you were referring to.
>
> I thought you knew that Trump requested an investigation into Crowdstrike
> and the DNC server in the call summary, so that the context of my statement
> was understood.  But since you didn't, I have no clarified what I
> originally meant.

Hansen doesn't know a fucking thing about any of this. He only knows Fox
and breitbart lies.

>>>>>> It was perfectly legally and proper to
>>>>>> investigate that interference - even if the investigation
>>>>>> should point toward a former vice president.  Or are you
>>>>>> saying Biden should get a pass for prior illegal conduct
>>>>>> just because he threw his creepy hat into the election ring?
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course not.  But, there is no evidence to support investigating Biden.
>>>>
>>>> Supporting evidence from Biden's own mouth at 1:20
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCF9My1vBP4
>>>
>>> Biden has long acknowledged he pressured Ukraine to fire
>>>  the prosecutor.  That is not evidence of illegal conduct.
>>
>> It's evidence to support investigating Biden.
>
> To the contrary, the evidence points to Biden wanting to end Ukrainian
> corruption.

There is *NO* evidence, not a shred, pointing to Biden having done anything
corrupt with respect to Ukraine. His insistence that the corrupt and
incompetent prosecutor Shokin be fired reflected the unanimous position of
the governments of the United States, the UK, France and Germany, among
others. Hansen knows this. Trump knows this.

[Steve ignores fools and losers]

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:03:43 -0700, Josh Rosenbluth

<LOL> And I've read the actual transcript. Trump did nothing wrong.

[M I Wakefield]

"Steve ignores fools and losers" wrote in message
news:f44nre5dp7765jed3...@4ax.com...

> <LOL> And I've read the actual transcript. Trump did nothing wrong.

Not unless you work for the NSC, you haven't. The actual transcript was so
concerning that it's been locked away on a secure server, and only a summary
has been released.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

From the summary of the call (there is no transcript):

Zelensky: "I would also like to thank you for your great support in the
area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next
steps specifically we are almost. ready to buy more Javelins from the
United States for defense purposes."

Trump: "I would like you to do us a favor though."

From the transcript of Mulvaney's press conference:

Karl: "But to be clear, what you just described is a quid-pro-quo: the
funding will not flow unless you're getting an investigation into the
Democratic server happened as well."

Mulvaney: "We do that all the time with foreign policy."

You think those things aren't wrong?

[Rudy Canoza]

It is that "though" that establishes the /quid pro quo/ - beyond dispute.

> From the transcript of Mulvaney's press conference:
>
> Karl:  "But to be clear, what you just described is a quid-pro-quo: the
> funding will not flow unless you're getting an investigation into the
> Democratic server happened as well."
>
> Mulvaney: "We do that all the time with foreign policy."
>
> You think those things aren't wrong?

They are wrong, and Mulvaney was being disingenuous. Yes, we condition aid
to foreign countries on the performance of certain actions by those
countries, but those actions are to be in support of *American* national
security interests, *NOT* in support of the president's personal political
interests.

Trump's condition on the aid was for him, not for the U.S. Nothing could
be more obvious and clear.

[Steve ignores fools and losers]

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:40:59 -0700, Josh Rosenbluth

<LOL> No quid-pro-quo, and Mulvaney did not say it was. However,
what Biden did was clearly quid-pro-quo.

[God's Sock Puppet]

On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 13:23:59 -0600, in talk.politics.guns Just
Wondering <J...@jw.com> wrote:

>Supporting evidence:
>Kyiv Court: Lawmaker's Release Of Manafort Documents Interfered In U.S.
>Election December 12, 2018
>A Kyiv court said that a Ukrainian lawmaker and a top anticorruption
>official’s decision in 2016 to publish documents linked to President
>Donald Trump’s then-campaign chairman amounted to interference in the
>U.S. presidential election.
>https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-court-ruling-election-interference/29652728.html

OK

Well... I don't call a 350-word (or so) blog posting to be "evidence"
of anything beyond the existence of a blogger writing to a blog site.
Essentially, that's an editorial piece.

But, let's say, just for the sake of discussion, that it were
"evidence" of something... I'm a little unclear exactly what that
"something" could be.

[M I Wakefield]

"Steve ignores fools and losers" wrote in message
news:rr9oret2hnojp23lj...@4ax.com...

> No quid-pro-quo, and Mulvaney did not say it was. However, what Biden did
> was clearly quid-pro-quo.

What Biden did, openly, was part of official US policy, acting with the EU
and the IMF.

Trump acted covertly, for his own personal benefit. There's debate as to
whether Trump's actions were bribery, extortion, or a violation of the
Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, but all rational observers think it's an
abuse of power.

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 08:38:11 -0500, God's Sock Puppet <x...@y.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 13:23:59 -0600, in talk.politics.guns Just
>Wondering <J...@jw.com> wrote:
>
>>Supporting evidence:
>>Kyiv Court: Lawmaker's Release Of Manafort Documents Interfered In U.S.
>>Election December 12, 2018
>>A Kyiv court said that a Ukrainian lawmaker and a top anticorruption
>>official’s decision in 2016 to publish documents linked to President
>>Donald Trump’s then-campaign chairman amounted to interference in the
>>U.S. presidential election.
>>https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-court-ruling-election-interference/29652728.html
>
>OK
>
>Well... I don't call a 350-word (or so) blog posting to be "evidence"
>of anything beyond the existence of a blogger writing to a blog site.
>Essentially, that's an editorial piece.

Looks like Jones is too stupid to know what "Radio Free Europe" is.

[jim]

Josh Rosenbluth wrote on 10/31/2019 6:24 PM:
>>
>> Billions in aid money was delivered care of Joe Biden
>> If Biden says you don't get the aid until you jump through thus
>> hoop that is what happens.
>>
>>
>>>> disappears
>>>> into the pockets of the guy who owns the company that hires Hunter Biden
>>>> for $50K/month even though Hunter has no experience or qualifications for
>>>> the job.
>>>
>>> I can;t help it if the voters mistakenly think that is evidence.
>>
>> sure nobody can help it
>> and
>> thus Trump gets re-elected.
>
> That continues to be your speculation. True or not, it has no bearing on
> whether Biden should be investigated.

What should be investigated is the billions of dollars in
financial aid and taxpayer guaranteed loans that have gone missing in
Ukraine and it looks like Joe Biden and the Democrats don't want to
investigate (or even talk about) that.
That makes them look complicit.

[Josh Rosenbluth]

Citation?