Distances

[Diane Trefethen]

From Bruce Weary:

I think Kat may be onto something here. Partial credit for partial mileage. "I
drove 200 miles of the Daytona 500. What do I win?" "I ran 8 miles of a marathon
and threw up. What official recognition do I get ?" " I paid nine of twelve
house payments this year. Can I keep part of the house?" "I remember to feed my
horses at least 7 out of 10 days. Is that good enough?"

Some things in life are "all or nothing." I am always more than a little
embarrassed when these discussions come up about how to mince some level of
"achievement" or recognition out of what is essentially a non-success. Are we
really so starved for attention and the (false) admiration of others as to feel
the need to strategize how to keep getting more recognition for less effort? We
should have a private little love affair with our sport and our personal
accomplishments, and relish the lessons that come from our failures, and apply
them to future successful efforts. Happiness and self satisfaction come from
within, not from what others think of us, especially if we've fooled them into
thinking it.

It's okay for every little kid on the winning and losing baseball teams to get a
snow cone afterward. The rules are different for grown ups, as they should be.

Bruce Weary

[Barbara McCrary]

I could not agree more! Bruce has it nailed. My only disagreement is that
kids on losing teams should NOT get rewards. THEY need to understand, as
well as adults, that not everyone can win. They need to learn to lose part
of the time, elsewise, what is the incentive for them to strive to win -
really win. They deserve congratulations for effort, but not rewards for
non-winning. That would be sending the wrong message to them.

Barbara

[Dawn Carrie]

Right on, Barbara!

 

Dawn

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[Sandra Adams]

I would even say that by the time a kid gets to be about 8, he or she had better get used to not always getting a "win" or a prize. They learn this sense of unearned entitlement, and later in life cannot for the life of them figure out why someone else more qualified or with a better showing up record got a promotion over them because in THEIR lives, everything is EQUAL right? I fI enter a 30 miler and only get to 27 miles I DO NOT DESERVE to be rewarded for that and I am SO FINE with that - it just makes me go home and work harder to make sure I finish the next time. That will apply to every distance, every event, every aspect of life!

When I go home, no one cares what or how I did that night - except me and my stalwart horse. That is as it should be, and I agree - it is disconcerting to know that more and more people want the praises for failing. Failing ought to make one work harder, persevere and try to do better the next time, not whine about not getting "credit". It makes that success so much the sweeter. JMHO

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Sandy Adams

Deep Sands Arabians

www.garyadamsbooks.com

Home of Salazar SF

"The Gentleman Stallion"

[Diane Trefethen]

Perhaps I can add a different "spin" to this idea.

I agree with Bruce that getting an award for not finishing what you started
sends a bad message. I also agree with Barbara and Sandy that rewarding kids for
not winning sets them up for confusion and resentment when they encounter
failure later in their lives. However, as Barbara said, "They deserve
congratulations for effort" and here is where many adults go astray.

When kids don't win, say a baseball game, THEY know they didn't win. We adults
don't have to tell them that. What we have to do is be certain that we DO reward
their trying, their effort and that they understand that that is what we are
doing. We are NOT rewarding their "non-winning." We are rewarding their putting
forth a good effort. And that is precisely what our motto "To Finish Is To Win"
is all about. No one here thinks taking 11 hours to complete a 50 in last place
is the same as finishing in first place in 6 hours. We all know that �winning"
is going the fastest and managing your horse the best of anyone else at that
ride. �To Finish Is To Win" highlights the fact that it is ALSO "winning" when
you go the fastest and manage your horse the best that you can on that day, even
if you've done better in the past or might do better at a future ride. You did
what you could with what you had to work with, warts and all, on THAT day. Ergo,
you "won."

The flip side of rewarding a non-win is punishing for a non-win. That has
happened to all of us at one time or another and it sucks. In real life, eight
years old is not the best time to learn THAT lesson, yet sadly, that is often
when we do. The result is that we, child or adult, often walk away from the
endeavor and never try again. I hate playing tennis. For me, playing is
inextricably woven into catcalls and being spit at. My logical left brain knows
my distaste is irrational but over 55 years later, my still smarting right brain
refuses to go along. There is no justifiable reason for PUNISHING a person for
non-winning. It has a lot of downside and no upside.

So what is my new �spin?� Frame the question differently. Keep in mind that I am
addressing the situation where we have someone who wants to move up, not someone
who signs up for a 50-100 mile ride and then gets pulled or is overtime.

Currently we have �sign up for a 50 mile ride and if you don�t complete, you get
nothing� and we have �sign up for a 25 mile ride and if you want you can elevate
to the 50 but if you do and don�t complete you get nothing.� In short, for the
person who wants to �move up,� we are punishing trying. Looked at that way, why
would anyone opt for that? This �punishment� is reasonable for those of us who
know what a 50 or a 100 is all about. We pays our money and we takes our
chances. However, we all know how badly we feel when we fail and in the case of
�moving up,� is feeling badly what we WANT to impose on those who wish to try? I
don�t think we do. So remove the punishment for trying. If a rider signs up for
the 25 and finishes well with a lot of horse, allow them the freedom to ride on
without risking the loss of their LD completion. If they can only go 40 miles
before they feel their horse shouldn�t continue, they still have their LD
completion but they have also learned more about what doing a 50 takes and that
they have more work to do. If they finish the 50, they get miles and points for
miles only, no placing, no bonus points, no right to show for BC even if they
Top Ten. They are not being punished for trying because even with these
restrictions on recognition, they hadn�t �won� those things at the point in time
that they completed the 25 miles. However, when we strip them of that 25 mile
completion in exchange for the CHANCE that they might complete the 50, we ARE
punishing them, not for �non-winning� but for trying.

[Carla Richardson]

Bruce, as you often do, you've got it in one.  Thank you.

I'm glad you're on the Board!

Carla Richardson

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[chi...@aol.com]

Maybe give the losing kids an ice cream cone....but no friggin' trophy!  Bruce, as usual, says exactly how I feel, but soooo much better!!

] On Behalf Of Diane Trefethen
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 9:03 AM
To: No longer Ridecamp
Subject: [RC] Distances

 From Bruce Weary:

I think Kat may be onto something here. Partial credit for partial mileage.
"I drove 200 miles of the Daytona 500. What do I win?" "I ran 8 miles of a
marathon and threw up. What official recognition do I get ?" " I paid nine
of twelve house payments this year. Can I keep part of the house?" "I
remember to feed my horses at least 7 out of 10 days. Is that good enough?"

Some things in life are "all or nothing." I am always more than a little
embarrassed when these discussions come up about how to mince some level of
"achievement" or recognition out of what is essentially a non-success. Are
we really so starved for attention and the (false) admiration of others as
to feel the need to strategize how to keep getting more recognition for less
effort?  We should have a private little love affair with our sport and our
personal accomplishments, and relish the lessons that come from our
failures, and apply them to future successful efforts. Happiness and self
satisfaction come from within, not from what others think of us, especially
if we've fooled them into thinking it.

It's okay for every little kid on the winning and losing baseball teams to
get a snow cone afterward. The rules are different for grown ups, as they
should be.


 Bruce Weary





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[Truman Prevatt]

Bottom line today - we should be willing to give any kid that goes out and plays in sports an ice cream cone just for getting away from his/her computer and video games and actually 

participating in sports!  There are not many kids that want to even go outside today.  

Over my life I have worked in youth sports.  I have coached neighborhood basketball teams while I was in grad school in Baltimore.  I umpired youth league baseball games while in college.  I also refereed soccer games after I got out of graduate school.  What I have seen is not that kids get undeserved rewards is that get lambasted by parents when the lose.  A 10 year old kid that strikes out feels bad enough - I've seen their long faces as I called the third strike.  The last thing they need is a parent chewing on them for striking out and yelling at the umpire because their precious little kid struck out.

It is not how the kids were raised - that is a total copout.  If we are losing members, if we are losing riders and if the riders we have don't want to ride longer rides, blaming the education system of the youth sports leagues is a total copout which will not solve the problem.  As the old Cat Stevens song says, "...the answer lies within..." 

This is our challenge.  

Truman 

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"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward." Franklin Delano Roosevelt

[Laney Humphrey]

Great thinking, Diane.  The punishing for trying way of doing things is what has kept me from doing more NATRC.  I'd much rather a sport start at zero points and reward every effort and success to one that starts at 100% and deducts for failure which is what NATRC does.  All your suggestion would require is a bit more paperwork but it seems to me that any RM worth his/her salt would happily do that in exchange for having a rider achieve a big success.

Laney

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Diane Trefethen <tr...@wakerobinranch.com> wrote:

Perhaps I can add a different "spin" to this idea.

I agree with Bruce that getting an award for not finishing what you started sends a bad message. I also agree with Barbara and Sandy that rewarding kids for not winning sets them up for confusion and resentment when they encounter failure later in their lives. However, as Barbara said, "They deserve congratulations for effort" and here is where many adults go astray.

When kids don't win, say a baseball game, THEY know they didn't win. We adults don't have to tell them that. What we have to do is be certain that we DO reward their trying, their effort and that they understand that that is what we are doing. We are NOT rewarding their "non-winning." We are rewarding their putting forth a good effort. And that is precisely what our motto "To Finish Is To Win" is all about. No one here thinks taking 11 hours to complete a 50 in last place is the same as finishing in first place in 6 hours. We all know that “winning" is going the fastest and managing your horse the best of anyone else at that ride. “To Finish Is To Win" highlights the fact that it is ALSO "winning" when you go the fastest and manage your horse the best that you can on that day, even if you've done better in the past or might do better at a future ride. You did what you could with what you had to work with, warts and all, on THAT day. Ergo, you "won."

The flip side of rewarding a non-win is punishing for a non-win. That has happened to all of us at one time or another and it sucks. In real life, eight years old is not the best time to learn THAT lesson, yet sadly, that is often when we do. The result is that we, child or adult, often walk away from the endeavor and never try again. I hate playing tennis. For me, playing is inextricably woven into catcalls and being spit at. My logical left brain knows my distaste is irrational but over 55 years later, my still smarting right brain refuses to go along. There is no justifiable reason for PUNISHING a person for non-winning. It has a lot of downside and no upside.

So what is my new “spin?” Frame the question differently. Keep in mind that I am addressing the situation where we have someone who wants to move up, not someone who signs up for a 50-100 mile ride and then gets pulled or is overtime.

Currently we have “sign up for a 50 mile ride and if you don’t complete, you get nothing” and we have “sign up for a 25 mile ride and if you want you can elevate to the 50 but if you do and don’t complete you get nothing.” In short, for the person who wants to “move up,” we are punishing trying. Looked at that way, why would anyone opt for that? This “punishment” is reasonable for those of us who know what a 50 or a 100 is all about. We pays our money and we takes our chances. However, we all know how badly we feel when we fail and in the case of “moving up,” is feeling badly what we WANT to impose on those who wish to try? I don’t think we do. So remove the punishment for trying. If a rider signs up for the 25 and finishes well with a lot of horse, allow them the freedom to ride on without risking the loss of their LD completion. If they can only go 40 miles before they feel their horse shouldn’t continue, they still have their LD completion but they have also learned more about what doing a 50 takes and that they have more work to do. If they finish the 50, they get miles and points for miles only, no placing, no bonus points, no right to show for BC even if they Top Ten. They are not being punished for trying because even with these restrictions on recognition, they hadn’t “won” those things at the point in time that they completed the 25 miles. However, when we strip them of that 25 mile completion in exchange for the CHANCE that they might complete the 50, we ARE punishing them, not for “non-winning” but for trying.

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[Buddy]

Having rode NATRC before attempting AERC endurance taught me the care
of the horse throughout the ride and being sure the horse was fit
before attempting the distance entered. It was never a RACE but an
opportunity to ride your horse a given distance successfully over
various trails and to complete with a sound horse.

On May 24, 10:59 pm, Laney Humphrey <laneyhumph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Great thinking, Diane.  The punishing for trying way of doing things is
> what has kept me from doing more NATRC.  I'd much rather a sport start at
> zero points and reward every effort and success to one that starts at 100%
> and deducts for failure which is what NATRC does.  All your suggestion
> would require is a bit more paperwork but it seems to me that any RM worth
> his/her salt would happily do that in exchange for having a rider achieve a
> big success.
> Laney
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Diane Trefethen

> <t...@wakerobinranch.com>wrote:

> > ridec...@endurance.net
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[Laney Humphrey]

I agree, Buddy, NATRC is a great concept and a great way to try out distance riding.  I just wish their scoring system wasn't so punitive.  Laney

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[Dot Wiggins]

Wait a minute----Is a snow cone after the game an award? Does this mean
the kids on the losing team can't go for pizza and ice cream with the
winners????
Or the rider that didn't finish can't go to the pot luck and post ride award
party?

Sorry, I'm just tired of all the carping and nit picking. "Distance"
riding is a recreational activity for most of us even if some of us take it
pretty serious sometimes.

We all do different things and have different goals.
I never want my LD miles and Endurance miles lumped together but I do them
all recorded. I don't want any one to tell me I must, or must not, ride any
distance at any time. I do not want to be told what otherwise qualified
horse I can ride at any distance, or how fast I can ride that distance on
that horse, as long as it's within safe conditions for that horse.
I don't believe credit for "miles completed" should be given when the
distance entered was not completed.

Is everyone stuck at home with out a horse to ride or no truck, too many
rides canceled?

Seems as if too many of us have too much time on hand to quarrel on RC. I
don't ride alone anymore at 83, and my partner has been overloaded with work
and still healing from an injury, that's my excuse, what's yours? (:>))
{:>))

Dot Wiggins AERC #968 NW PNER # 475

PS-----I didn't clip this post on purpose. DW

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From: "Barbara McCrary" <bigcre...@wildblue.net>
To: <tr...@wakerobinranch.com>; "'No longer Ridecamp'"
<Ride...@endurance.net>

[Erin Glassman]

Laney, et al...I would say that "punitive" and "negative" are all a matter of perspective in regards to NATRC--I choose to view the points system and judging as opportunities to improve my horsemanship and my teamwork with my horse, rather than as a loss of points.  You can always shift your perspective to think, ok, there are probably 3 points available for this obstacle, I only gained 1 point for it (or in a more negative view, lost 2).  I find the sport is an excellent introductory for distance riding, both for myself and for newer horses, to help teach pace and communication between my horse and i.  When comparing AERC and NATRC, you really must remember they are different sports--there can be unfounded perceptions by both or all sides when comparing other distance sports, generally by those who havent tried the other "flavors" for any adequate amount of time.  Any sport is what you make of it--if you want to go start a new horse, ignore the points, just go, ride, have a good time, blah blah blah, and you will have a successful, positive ride.  

In reference to partial credit, I tend to agree with what Julie said--i think that those of us out there that are competing in any of these sports have that underlying drive and self-satisfaction from obtaining those ultimate goals, whether that be to finish a NATRC, UMECRA, MOTDRA, AERC 25/t50/75/100, whatever.  The awards don't mean that much to me, and are rather more of a reminder of an accomplishment. I think that if I was unsure about a distance, I might try to find an elevator ride. 

Erin Glassman, CT region. 

[Ed & Wendy Hauser]

Partial credit for partial mileage.

Getting on my soapbox:

Since the beginning UMECRA has kept horse LIFETIME MILES in the same bucket, no matter if they were earned in Endurance, LD, CTR, or mentoring "novice" rides.  UMECRA also historically has allowed an RM to report "miles only" for folk who do things like ride drag or take down ribbons and go over time.

The world has not ended, nobody seems to be upset that their horse got the 1000 mile award for doing 20 Endurance rides while someone else got the same award for doing 40 or more shorter rides, and I feel that it encourages someone who has a bunch of CTR or LD miles on a particular horse to try an Endurance ride.

Getting down from the soapbox!

Ed

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Ed & Wendy Hauser 5729 175th Avenue Becker, MN 55308 Ed- (406) 381-5527 Wendy- (406) 544-2926

[Truman Prevatt]

For lifetime mileage SEDRA does the same thing, CTR, LD, and endurance go in the same pile.  In reality sports is full of "partial credit."  Look at baseball statistics.  Batting average, one base percentage, stolen bases, home runs, slugging percentage, runs batted and those are only categories for offense in which awards are given.

Personally I'm not sure we need to consider partial miles.  Removing the negative incentive for elevating in a ride makes some sense.  Face it there is no incentive to elevate.  I have finished 50 as first HW or top 10 or whatever.  Now I can elevate to a 75 or 100 but I 

a) lose my completion in the 50.

b) I am riding the longer distance for placement only.  

Well dud and people wonder why so few people elevate and so few elevation are offered.  The question is why would they elevate?

I've always said since the day I started and did LD, 50 and 100's often times in the same season on the same horse - throw all the miles in a pile as AERC lifetime miles.  They are all AERC and they are all earned miles.

Truman 

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"Each success only buys an admission ticket to a more difficult problem"  Henry Kissinger

[Diane Trefethen]

From Bruce Weary:

On 5/25/2013 12:58 PM, Truman Prevatt wrote:
> The question is why would they elevate?

"Why would anyone elevate?"
Answer: It's called "Accepting a challenge without assurance of
success or reward," a concept that USED to be deeply entrenched and
well understood around this sport. I remember those days with
great affection. Bruce Weary.

[Shannon Loomis]

We have elevator CTRs in our region but if you don't complete the second half, you still get credit for the miles for the first distance completed before you elevated. You don't place or get any points, but you get to keep the miles.

Shannon Loomis
QED Farm - Sport Morgans
Pleasant Creek, WV

[marshall Bates]

This concept USED to be deeply entrenched in American culture  But these days it seems that most people want instant gratification  and recognition for everything. As my wife used to tell the grandkids "just  shut up and ride" Marsh the muleman

"Accepting a challenge without assurance of success or reward," a concept that USED to be deeply entrenched and well understood around this sport.   I remember  those  days with great affection.  Bruce Weary.

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[Bobbie Brown]

Bruce...you are soooo right.   I will share with you this...some of my best riding accomplishment's/challenges were when no one else was  around to give recognition to my horse & me for what "we" did...but Loki & I knew...and that's all that counted at the end of the day.      I lost Loki to cancer last year...there's no replacement for that love/respect I had for him.   

Bobbie

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[Sandra Adams]

This is too true these days. One of our daughters had a math teacher who, despite continued poor test results, continued to praise our daughter and tell her she was great for "trying". Really? "Trying" would NEVER EVER help me balance our household checking account, nor would it help in trying to find a job. Trying is half the battle - DOING it the battle itself. Thus, our daughter finished middle school and started high school thinking that her math skills were excellent, when in fact they were TERRIBLE. She failed Algebra, took it again and passed, but then failed it TWICE in community college. She finally got the message and BARELY passed it so that she could get into a four year university - where then continued to pander to her "trying". SHe did indeed get the message in spite of them, and completed her degree and earned a terrific internship. She went the LONG LONG way around the barn but now earned a terrific position with the company that interned her - because she learned finally that just showing up was not good enough. I am personally sick of people who want the win just for putting on the uniform. Either finish a ride or figure out what you need to do. Marshall is correct. 

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[Truman Prevatt]

As someone that has taught math on the college level, I will tell you it can be a frustrating endeavor for both student and teacher.  There are those people that for the lack of a better term have no mathematical intuition and cannot develop what we call mathematical maturity.  No matter what they do or how hard they  try - they just cannot grasp the concepts.  Part of the issues we saw at the college level was the kids coming out of high school were not taught mechanics - not the ability to reason.  You will not get very far in math or the sciences for that matter without the ability to reason.  

I had to interesting case studies.  One was a you man who would show up in my office with a question about one of the advanced problems (not assigned) in the calculus text we were using.  That year we were using a pretty rigorous text.   That young man worked every problem in the text and only ever had questions on the advanced problems.  We would work them out and I could see the light go on.  Our test were brutal.  No one ever got a perfect score.  A 75% would be about the top score.  He would score an 85% with the next highest score a 75%.  He really should have been in the honors math course but he was a pre-med and never thought about.  

I also had a young woman that just could not manage to catch on.  She worked her butt off.  She did every homework problem and she was in my office twice a week for help. When she could not find me she would go to the course coordinators office and if he wasn't in she would go to someone else's office to seek help.  I don't know how many horse a week she worked on the course but it was a lot.  Where has it was rewarding to see the light come on in the first students case, it was frustrating to seen the deer in the headlights look in the second students case.   Should she have been told - you are toast?  I don't think so.  Did she struggle with the subject - she sure did.  Did she develop enough a grasp to get a passing grade - yes.  It was a C but not too many points above a D.  She would not have gotten the C if she had not done every homework assignment and busted her ass. 

Would she ever excel at math - no.  Would she make a good professional in a career that didn't require proving theorems - yes and she went off to med school afterwards.  The first kid could have ignored the homework, not shown up to class and probably still gotten an A.  He did have a mathematical intuition and he was very proficient with abstract concepts and the ability to use logic. 

At the end of the day - trying is important.  Would we have spent as much time with the second student if she weren't busting her behind putting her own skin in the game - no way. 

Truman

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[Becky/Sue Burkheart]

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Diane Trefethen <tr...@wakerobinranch.com> wrote:

When kids don't win, say a baseball game, THEY know they didn't win. We adults don't have to tell them that. What we have to do is be certain that we DO reward their trying, their effort and that they understand that that is what we are doing. We are NOT rewarding their "non-winning." We are rewarding their putting forth a good effort. And that is precisely what our motto "To Finish Is To Win" is all about. No one here thinks taking 11 hours to complete a 50 in last place is the same as finishing in first place in 6 hours. We all know that “winning" is going the fastest and managing your horse the best of anyone else at that ride. “To Finish Is To Win" highlights the fact that it is ALSO "winning" when you go the fastest and manage your horse the best that you can on that day, even if you've done better in the past or might do better at a future ride. You did what you could with what you had to work with, warts and all, on THAT day. Ergo, you "won."

The flip side of rewarding a non-win is punishing for a non-win. That has happened to all of us at one time or another and it sucks. In real life, eight years old is not the best time to learn THAT lesson, yet sadly, that is often when we do. The result is that we, child or adult, often walk away from the endeavor and never try again. I hate playing tennis. For me, playing is inextricably woven into catcalls and being spit at. My logical left brain knows my distaste is irrational but over 55 years later, my still smarting right brain refuses to go along. There is no justifiable reason for PUNISHING a person for non-winning. It has a lot of downside and no upside.

So what is my new “spin?” Frame the question differently. Keep in mind that I am addressing the situation where we have someone who wants to move up, not someone who signs up for a 50-100 mile ride and then gets pulled or is overtime.

Currently we have “sign up for a 50 mile ride and if you don’t complete, you get nothing” and we have “sign up for a 25 mile ride and if you want you can elevate to the 50 but if you do and don’t complete you get nothing.” In short, for the person who wants to “move up,” we are punishing trying. Looked at that way, why would anyone opt for that? This “punishment” is reasonable for those of us who know what a 50 or a 100 is all about. We pays our money and we takes our chances. However, we all know how badly we feel when we fail and in the case of “moving up,” is feeling badly what we WANT to impose on those who wish to try? I don’t think we do. So remove the punishment for trying. If a rider signs up for the 25 and finishes well with a lot of horse, allow them the freedom to ride on without risking the loss of their LD completion. If they can only go 40 miles before they feel their horse shouldn’t continue, they still have their LD completion but they have also learned more about what doing a 50 takes and that they have more work to do. If they finish the 50, they get miles and points for miles only, no placing, no bonus points, no right to show for BC even if they Top Ten. They are not being punished for trying because even with these restrictions on recognition, they hadn’t “won” those things at the point in time that they completed the 25 miles. However, when we strip them of that 25 mile completion in exchange for the CHANCE that they might complete the 50, we ARE punishing them, not for “non-winning” but for trying.

Totally agree with DIane on this...  "Reward the try" is what we need to do.  Not punish the try or reward the failure as some people are twisting it around to be.

I used to ride 100s and started having some health problems after my kids were born.  I finished 3, then pulled four.  The four I pulled were all rider option pulls between 60-90 miles. (blood sugar issues, pass out, fall off my horse).  That good horse died tragically and I've always hated that I started those hundreds instead of doing 50s.  I know he doesn't care a flip, but *I* do.  I wish he'd gotten credit for the mileage he did instead of all those non-completions packing my sick ass all those miles.

I *want* to do 100s again, but it's a really hard leap for me at this point.  I'm able to do, at most, one or two rides a year and I'd really like to get a decade team recognition on my current horse.  I know he's likely a good 100 mile horse, but frankly, i'm not going to risk the non-completion if i can only make one ride a year.

Becky Burkheart
BeckyBurkheart.com ~ Gritty, sensual mythology, dark fantasy & science fiction ~ (Stay updated!)