Daily e-lytes

[Dolores Arste]

My friend uses this product from Smartpak. She cared for one of my horses before it was picked up by a hauler for the

trip from Arkansas to New York. 1600 miles in 36 hours. She drank like a trooper on the trip. What does anyone think about daily e-lytes. http://www.smartpakequine.com/smartlytes-pellets-9585p.aspx?cm_vc=Search

And, one more question. Anybody using daily wormer? Do you know how long they should be off the daily before using Quest. I've got a Warble problem. It's a real pain in the a**

Warmly,

Dolores

[ride...@juno.com]

I went to an all day seminar for horsemen that was put on by the University of Tennessee back in the 90's. When it came to electrolytes they said that horses that stayed aerobic became alkaline whereas horses that were anaerobic were acidic. So...what was good for a flat track racer was totally wrong for endurance. It got kinda confusing when they got into cross country jumpers & standardbred racing. My guess is that smartpack is packaged for jumping horses that spend most of their day in a stall with a few short laps around the ring. Personally, I'm backing off of electrolytes only pre-loading before rides and not even dosing during southeast 50's and 100's.

 

I've known a couple of instances with really freaky colics during rides where the people used daily wormer. Maybe I'm just a less is more person but I can't see how feeding low doses of poison to a horse every day of his life could be a good thing. I heard one bragged that they wouldn't go without it...it had paid for TWO colic surgeries their horses had had to have. I've had no colic surgeries. I think that's even better.

 

Angie McGhee

 

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
consumerproducts.com

[Dolores Arste]

My friend is not a jumper. Although she used to foxhunt. Her horses are out all day. She said she noticed that they drank more in general. That's what I noticed too with our little girl who only stayed there 3 weeks. So, I just don't know. 

I'm not competing at distance any more. I'm at my wits end with the Warbles. They are just gross. So, I had to do something this year. But when I was competing I would agree with you Angie. I'd never use a daily wormer or a daily e-lyte. I'd like to know the status of the horse in that case. 

Warmly,

Dolores

[Truman Prevatt]

There are times on the Gulf coast when a horse stands under a shade tree with sweat dripping off.  Durning those hot and muggy periods - I will throw in some Lite Salt in the food.

Also when we get our freak cold spells in the winter, I'll throw in some electrolytes in the food.  It seems to make they drink better especially in those cold spells when the water troughs get cold.  

T

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"There is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong. "H. L. Mencken

[Sheri Devouassoux]

My horse is not a fan of salt and will not lick a salt block or eat loose salt.  Period.  I mix an ounce of plain white salt in with his daily mush (along with other supplements).  Last summer here in SW Illinois.we had a heat advisory for something like 56 of 60 straight days.  About two weeks into this heat wave my horse looked like crap.  He was lethargic and just standing around sweating.  I tried adding additional salt to his feed but then he wouldn't eat anything.  So I substituted an ounce of Endura Max electrolytes for his one ounce of salt.  The next day I came out to find my gelding looking bright and cheerful.  Not a drop of sweat on him.  I continued to give him a daily dose of  Endura Max electrolytes until the heat wave ended some six weeks later.  This year I am doing the same thing (plain salt on regular days, Endura Max on those days with a heat advisory).  I do pre load and dose with electrolytes during rides, even though I mainly do LDs these days. I also dose with electrolytes if I am going to be doing a training ride in extreme heat (like tomorrow it is supposed to be 98 degrees with high humidity here and I am going riding).  Why do I give electrolytes?  Well, because I know my horse and he certainly looks and does better with some electrolytes.  And I know that I certainly feel better and perform better if I add a half a scoop of Endura Max to my Camelback before heading out on the first loop on ride day. 

As for the daily dewormer...I assume you are talking about Strongid C or something like that?  To my knowledge, Pyrantel tartrate is not effective against warbles.  The main killer of warbles is ivermectin.  I have heard that it is safe to give weekly doses of ivermectin to kill off warbles, but check with your vet on that one.  As for Quest, I am not a fan.  I have spent lots of time comparing how safe Quest is compared to some other wormers on the market and I think I will stay away from that one.  Just my opinion.

Sheri Devouassoux

[Dolores Arste]

Thank you Sheri. I may try the weekly Ivermectin. Of note there does seem to be a reduction since starting the daily wormer. Who knows. 

Warmly,

Dolores

[Roger Ward]

Dolores

you mentioned you had had problem with warbles. Did you ever have any
long term nerve damage from a warble. One of my geldings seems to
have spinal nerve damage and he is prone to warbles.

Roger Ward

[Dolores Arste]

Hi Roger,

Not that I know of. Mostly we get them around the jaw and neck area. I do get some coughing now and again that I attribute to the warbles. 

Like you I seem to have one or two that seem more prone to get them than others. It seems those are the ones that don't seem to head inside when the bugs get bad. 

I understand their eggs can hide under the wings of flies. 

Warmly,

Dolores

[Sheri Devouassoux]

Dolores,

Try as I might, I can't actually find anything on the internet that actually recommends WEEKLY treatments with Ivermectin for warbles.  Most everything I read says to worm monthly with Ivermectin during the warble season and immediately following the warble season (I guess that means to do one last dose of Ivermectin after the last warble flies have disappeared).  The weekly dose was recommended to me back in the 90's by a vet.  I had a horse at the time that was particularly prone to warbles.  I boarded at a 22 horse facility in the Baltimore, MD suburbs.  Not a cow for miles and my gelding was the only horse that wound up with warbles.  Go figure.

My new gelding had some warble issues last year.  I gave him a dose of Ivermectin whenever I noticed the tell-tale warble bumps.  I probably only dosed him every four weeks or so and that seemed to take care of the little buggers.  

And, yes, warbles can cause all kinds of problems, to include long term nerve damage.  You are very wise to try to get rid of them.  

Sheri Devouassoux

Warmly,

Dolores

--

[Dolores Arste]

Sheri,

Did you double dose the Ivermectin or normal dose. Someone told me to try a double dose.

Warmly,

Dolores

[Sheri Devouassoux]

A single dose, based on his weight.  I am not sure that it is entirely safe to double dose with Ivermectin.  There seems to be a number of people who say not to.  I got great results with just a single dose for both horses (the horse years ago weighed in at 1050 lbs, my new boy is about 850 lbs.  Keep a close eye on your horse(s) that are infected with warbles and get dosed with ivermectin.  Sometimes they can have an allergic reaction when the worms start dying off.  I have never had a problem, though.  Lots of luck to you.  Those things are gross!

Sheri

[SMW]

Years ago I had a veterinarian tell me to dose with a full tube of ivermectin anything over 1 year of age.
I have been doing that for the last 15-20 years now. I never go under a full tube, the safety margin is very large but I am seeing lots of resistance to ivermectin. Sure wish we still had a dewormer that worked on bots!
I have used Quest, it is the one dewormer on the market you need to worm based on weight.
Sharon

(\__/)                
(='.'=)  
(")_(")   :D

[Sheri Devouassoux]

Is Ivermectin no longer effective against bots?  I thought that was the main claim to fame for that wormer.  Or is it that bots are becoming resistant in your area?  Ivermectin seems to work fine on bots here (St. Louis area).  

I have had vets tell me to give a full tube of Ivermectin, too.  I have had other vets tell me to worm with Ivermectin based on weight.  All of the vets share one thing in common: they tell me to NOT use Quest.  Quest has a very low safety margin.  For encysted strongyles I do a Power Pack (double dose with fenbendazole for five days straight once or twice a year).  One dose of Quest will do the same thing as ten tubes of fenbendazole, but the fenbendazole is way, way safer.  

I must be getting really, really old.  I remember when Ivermectin was first available.  It was an IM injection that only your vet could do.  A whole lot of horses died as a result of that injectable ivermectin.  It was taken off the market.  A few years later Zimectrin appeared on the shelves of every tack and feed store.  For the first time in history (to my knowledge) the common horse owner could worm horses for bots.  It was expensive ($12) and most people I knew only wormed with Zimectrin maybe twice a year.  Just a few years back generic Ivermectin became available.  I have seen it for as low as $1.99.  I guess since it is more readily available and cheaper people are using it more and worms are becoming resistant?  Not sure.  I know that we do fecals at the barn I am at now.  I find it interesting that if there are two horses in the exact same field on the exact same worming program one horse may be totally infested with strongyles (my horse) and another might have no sign of any worms at all.  I am not sure how that works either.  Something about some horses being heavier worm shedders.  I do know that fecals are not very useful for certain sorts of worms, so you cannot rely entirely on that test to determine how and when your horse should be wormed.  But, hey, I am getting totally off subject and I am sorry.  I am going to go ride my horse now.  It is only supposed to be 98 degrees today with high humidity.  I heard that tomorrow is supposed to be way hotter.  Bye for now!

Sheri

[chi...@aol.com]

When Strongid first came out with the daily wormer, I put my horse on it.  This was a horse who pulsed down immediately and I never had a metabolic problem with him.  Soon after I put him on the daily wormer, he would take 10 minutes to pulse down (an eternity for him), wouldn't eat at rides, and generally lost condition.  As soon as I took him off, he went back to normal.  Just my 1 horse study......

[Lynne Glazer]

Strongid C:  the takeaway I got was that it was implicated in anterior enteritis in endurance horses.  Karen Steenhof's Ambers Thorn (7K miles) was one horse I knew whom it happened to.

Lynne

[Ellen Rosenberg]

Generally I don't give a lot of e-lytes. However, her first summer
here, I did give them to her daily. She came from WA, and moved to
Phoenix, AZ. I thought that she needed them her first summer. Now,
during the summer, if we do a long, hot ride, yes, I give her some in
her supplements. At rides, I put it in her mash. At home she has a
salt block. She took 4 years to get through the last one (shared with
2 other horses)
Ellen and Feather

[Owens]

I've found that all of my horses consume more salt with the Redmond salt
blocks vs the square processed ones they normally sell in feed stores.
They're more expensive but not awfully so.
JMO
Katee
www.advantagesaddles.com

[Sheri Devouassoux]

I tried the Redmond salt block and my horse wouldn't touch it.  He is weird.   So I gave the salt block away.  I also tried loose Redmond salt.  He wouldn't eat that either, so I started mixing it in with his feed.  Then he would eat it.  I switched him to regular white livestock salt (I buy 50# for about $5) because he is already on a whole lot of expensive medications and supplements (for his IR, thyroid, and melanomas).  I just had to cut down on expenses somewhere.  I do think that the Redmond salt is good stuff.  I just wish my gelding would agree.  I might try it again in the future if I can find it in a local feed store and don't have to pay shipping.  Salt weighs a lot!

Sheri Devouassoux

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[Nathan Hoyt]

The problem with dewormers is that people over-use anything that works.  Ivermectin is still a great dewormer, but if you use anything every two months, the small strongyles will develop resistance.  Strongid C is another great product, but they made that "no colic surgery guarantee" (which was promotional BS; few colics anymore are actually due to parasites; they were playing the odds to boost sales) and people started to use it 24/7 for every dang horse they had, which is not good medicine.  It was best for treateing brood mares.  You started right before mares started to foal to knock down pasture parasite levels and then you stopped once it got hot and dry in the summer.  I never considered it a performance horse product.  Adult horses shouldn't need daily preventatives.  Just treat the high shedders with whatever is effective and leave the low shedders alone.  I do like to use a Panacur PowerPack right after it gets hot and dry or cold and frozen.

The goal of deworming is to hit the worms where it hurts with the minimum number of treatments.  The worms are encysted in the horse when the pastures are hot and dry or cold and frozen waiting for temperate, moist conditions.  That is when a PowerPack really pays off because the vast majority of the worms are inside the horse where the drug can get them, not on the pasture.  Using a PowerPack in the spring or fall is a waste of money because the horses get immediately reinfested once you clean them out.  That is when you use a stand-by like ivermectin based on fecal egg counts.  Treat only the heavy shedders.  Limit the daily preventatives to your brood mares as described above. 

People are grossed out by the thought of parasites, so they hammer their horses with dewormers.  Any horse with a egg count of zero is over-treated.  Your horse needs some exposure to develop immune resistance to the little buggers.  Their individual levels of immunity are what causes some horses to always have low egg counts and others to have high egg counts.  Unfortunately, I do not know how to stimulate a stronger immune response in one that always has high numbers. 

Blindly treating every two to three months has proven to be bad medicine.  We as vets have a responsibility to help our clients develop strategic deworming programs, but we get in a hurry and cut corners and tell you to throw some ivermectin at the problem.  Demand more from your vet.  A fundamental part of that is individual fecal egg counts for each horse.  It is good medicine.  Pay for it.  Strongyles and ascarids shed eggs like crazy if they are present in significant numbers.  The ones that can hide from egg counts are tape worms, but they are weak sauce compared to strongyles and ascarids.  If you use something that includes praziquantel a couple times a year, you'll have adequate tapeworm coverage.

Nate

[Sheri Devouassoux]

Wow, this is really good information.  

My horse is really prone to strongyles.  I guess he is called a "high shedder."  I really am not sure how much he was wormed before I bought him last year.  Probably not a lot.  Immediately after I purchased him, he and several other horses on the farm showed signs of encysted strongyles shedding (or emerging?  Not sure of the right term).  Anyway, the horses were lethargic, rough coats and had swollen legs (especially the hind legs).  I did my homework and figured he must have an encysted strongyle infestation and did a Power Pack.  My horse looked immediately better. I did another Power Pack in the fall because that was what different sites on the internet said to do.  We never did get a hard freeze here last winter, so he would not have gotten anything if I had waited around for that.  As for hot and dry, that is usually the Fall around here (so maybe I did right?), but this Spring is unusually hot and dry (so maybe his recent Power Pack might have been effective?)  Not sure.   

Early this year I moved him to a new barn.  The standard at the new barn is to do fecals twice a year.  My horse came back as a very high shedder.  The barn manager said the vet said he had to be wormed with Panacur, not ivermectin.  So much conflicting information.  

Can I assume that, based on a couple of fecals that showed my horse as a high shedder (and the probable encysted strongyles) that my horse will always be a high shedder?  Or is that something that varies due to location?  How often should a fecal be done?  Monthly?  Twice a year?  I am trying to figure this whole thing out.  I thought I had it all figured out but I was obviously wrong.  There is just so much conflicting information out there.  Grrrrr!

Sheri Devouassoux

--

[Dolores Arste]

Yas, but what about those danged Warbles. I hate them.

Warmly,

Dolores

[Ellen Rosenberg]

Interesting... I think this is very regional. For the last 3 years I
have been doing fecal egg counts twice a year and de-worming based on
my vet's recommendation (based on what she sees in our area). The egg
counts have been negative, and my horse has had 5 total doses of
worming meds in the last 3 years. Although I initiated this with my
vet, it has gone very well. She is very supportive.

[Karen Standefer]

My Redmond salt blocks disappear quicker too, but the rain washes them
away and it doesn't wash away the iodized ones. I use the 50 pound
Redmond blocks instead of the rocks. The horses seem to be able to
"get a bite" out of the square easier than the rocks. Mine all like
to take a bite rather than lick.

On Saturday 26/05/2012 at 7:35 pm, Owens wrote:
> I've found that all of my horses consume more salt with the Redmond
> salt blocks vs the square processed ones they normally sell in feed
> stores. They're more expensive but not awfully so.
> JMO
> Katee

> http://www.advantagesaddles.com

>>
>> Generally I don't give a lot of e-lytes. However, her first summer
>> here, I did give them to her daily. She came from WA, and moved to
>> Phoenix, AZ. I thought that she needed them her first summer. Now,
>> during the summer, if we do a long, hot ride, yes, I give her some in
>> her supplements. At rides, I put it in her mash. At home she has a
>> salt block. She took 4 years to get through the last one (shared with
>> 2 other horses)
>> Ellen and Feather
>>
>
>

[Karen Standefer]

Nathan, the only colic I've ever had was due to a strongyle infestation.  My vet, at the time, told me that most colics she sees are due to parasites.  She said that is the first thing she suspects and tests when a horse in her care colics.  My horse colicked twice before I got the problem under control.  He's 20 this year and never colicked again (he was 6 at the time).

On Saturday 26/05/2012 at 9:51 pm, Nathan Hoyt wrote:

......... few colics anymore are actually due to parasites;

[Roger Rittenhouse]

My personal problem with Redmond salt as well as any trace mineral
salts block or loose, is the iron levels . Way too high for horses.
Most horses are over-dosed with iron.
I prefer to use white loose salt. I mix the feed grade loose salt with
equal amounts of iodized salt. They need iodine before iron.

I keep the tub of salt in the run shed out of the rain.

RogerR

[Karen Standefer]

Hi Roger.  Copper offsets iron.  so, making sure the copper is in balance with the iron will fix the excess iron issue.  Maybe in your area they get too much iron.  In my area, we don't have lots of iron, so not a worry.   I think it's dangerous to say all horses get too much iron.  Iron is needed by the thyroid glands and if even slightly less than optimal , the body can't use the thyroid it produces.  Iron is not a villan unless the body has too much and then, of course, it is VERY bad.

The trace minerals in Redmond salt is hugely beneficial to the nervous system and digestive system.  

[Bonnie]

Hello Karen,

Actually the high iron levels usually make it necessary to add
tremendous amounts of copper to balance the levels of iron commonly
found in forage(hay and pasture) and grain or concentrates. Adding
iron is unnecessary in supplements and salt. It is very hard to find
mineral supplements and other supplements that do not have added
iron.

Humans need more iron that horses but humans tend to put their needs
on their horses and think extra iron is a good thing. I have a horse
with iron overload. He used to get toxic sweat that would stick in his
hair and hosing and even bathing with soap could not get the sweat
out. Brushing after the sweat dried was useless. The sweat just stuck
there. Doesn't seem like a big problem but then it caused his hair to
fall out first on his head, then under where his breast collar was and
then around his tail. I was getting worried I would have a bald horse.
I had to find minerals that had higher amounts of copper and zinc with
no iron to get him to have normal sweat. When I started using those
supplements on my horses who did not seem to have symptoms, their
coats improved and we even got dapples on black, bay and sorrel
horses. Hoof quality improved. Hair coat and hooves are made up of
the same materials as tendons and ligaments.

All you have to do is look at levels of iron in common feed stuffs and
look at the recommended levels for horses to see that there is almost
always way too much iron on horse feed stuffs.

Trace minerals are great, but not if you are adding more iron to the
diet to get them.

--
Best regards,
Bonnie mailto:bon...@b4boots.com
http://www.b4boots.com
check out our blog at http://www.b4boots.com/w

[Roger Rittenhouse]

Most riders do NOT add copper to the feed.

According to Dr Kellon ECIR group, many ? horse are in iron overlaod.
Much of the hay is high in iron. Water is high in iron drank from
wells. Most supplements are high in iron as is feed mixes. My comments
are based on her science, not just tossed out there :) :)

Unless one tests the hay feed water etall you dont really know how
much iron a horse is getting..

I do test and I do balnce my hay feed etc.. of course I have to do
this with 2 IR horses :)

RR

[Owens]

All well water is not the same. Good to have well water tested for iron
content, for humans as well as horses.
Katee

[Roger Rittenhouse]

What Bonnie said +1
:)
I never believed any of this crap :) until I had to.

Feeding a major/minor mineral DIY BALANCED supplement for my hay/
feed, has really made a difference for my horses. Force feeding a
mineral the horse does not need is an error. I also do not buy into
the logic? ( its not science) , of letting a horse figure out what it
needs from piles of assorted minerals to 'naturally' balance the
feed/ hay intake.

All those years of feeding shotgun 'balance-in-a-bucket' , the
expensive supplements did noting but create more imbalance and
problems in the horse.

I could rant on for xxx about all the stuff I used to do years ago
that I no longer believe and believe might have caused some of the
problems I am dealing with today.

RR

WAY OT :) sorry I will shut up now :)

[Roger Rittenhouse]

Yep did that and now have an iron filter for horses and horses :)

RR

[Char Jewell]

OK, I have to ask - what are Warbles?  I don't think we have them in the Northeast???

 

Thanks,

Char Jewell

[Dolores Arste]

We do have them in the NE. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warble_fly 

Once long ago we had a dog get one. I have two horses that seem to get them. They are very gross. But I also have 4 others that never have one. It's really weird. 

Warmly,

Dolores

[Char Jewell]

Well, I guess we're lucky - I've never seen this in any horses I know.

 

Thanks,

Char Jewell

[Shannon Loomis]

We commonly see them in stray kittens around here, not so much in large animals.

Sent from my iPad

[Kathy Sherman]

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26354--,00.html

They are really gross. When I kept my horse at a cattle ranch in Santa
Rosa, he got one or two. The removal protocol at that time was to fill
a coke bottle with hot, hot water, dump out the water and immediately
press the bottle opening against the grub bump. It'd suck it right out
and the wound would heal up quickly. It sure was disgusting though.

Kathy

[Dolores Arste]

Kathy,

I love that one. Beats squishing the bump which is what I've been doing. 

If you squish that kills them too. But if you miss one the wound is ugly.

Warmly,

Dolores

[Karen Standefer]

Better to test horses and make sure they have an issue with iron
overload first. otherwise you're spinning your wheels worrying about
nothing. Most horses can deal with excess iron. I do understand that
insulin resistant individuals have iron issues. In people and dogs
they've identified it as a gene mutation. In horses I don't think
they've gone that far in research yet.

On Monday 28/05/2012 at 10:54 am, Owens wrote:
> All well water is not the same. Good to have well water tested for
> iron content, for humans as well as horses.
> Katee
>
>>

>> Most riders do NOT add copper to the feed.
>>
>> According to Dr Kellon ECIR group, many ? horse are in iron overlaod.
>> Much of the hay is high in iron. Water is high in iron drank from
>> wells. Most supplements are high in iron as is feed mixes. My comments
>> are based on her science, not just tossed out there :) :)
>>
>> Unless one tests the hay feed water etall you dont really know how
>> much iron a horse is getting..
>>
>> I do test and I do balnce my hay feed etc.. of course I have to do

>> this with 2 IR horses :)
>>
>> RR
>>

>> On May 28, 11:10 am, Karen Standefer<kstande...@apbb.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Roger. Copper offsets iron. so, making sure the copper is in
>>> balance with the iron will fix the excess iron issue. Maybe in your
>>> area they get too much iron. In my area, we don't have lots of iron,
>>> so not a worry. I think it's dangerous to say all horses get too
>>> much iron. Iron is needed by the thyroid glands and if even slightly
>>> less than optimal , the body can't use the thyroid it produces. Iron
>>> is not a villan unless the body has too much and then, of course, it
>>> is VERY bad.
>>>
>>> The trace minerals in Redmond salt is hugely beneficial to the nervous
>>> system and digestive system.
>
>

[Sandy Adams]

There is a lot of truth to this, Nate, and in addition to doing twice yearly fecal counts, we chose to ONLY worm during the years where we found more than one horse out of our 6 with a notable worm load, or more than two types, and ONLY during the season that one would expect them to proliferate - that is, spring time and late summer. We never worm between October and May. Rotating doesn't really work well if you have no idea what is inside your horse anyway, so it makes sense to only treat when necessary - and frankly, if more people maintained their horses in a cleaner environment…… 

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Sandy Adams

Deep Sands Arabians

www.garyadamsbooks.com

[Nathan Hoyt]

Ellen,

This illustrates the problem with using simple metaphors... ...there is always a literal exception:)

You are correct. When you see results like you describe, your environment is kicking the parasites behinds. Your horses immune systems can handle the rest.

My main point was not to develop a "zero tolerance" policy regarding parasites.

Nate

Mostly Harmless

[Nathan Hoyt]

Karen,

In my experience, most surgical colics are due to dehydration in some capacity, followed by pasture/food change.  Gnarly teeth are #3 on the list.  All the odd-ball stuff was a distant fourth.  I will concede that most of the colics I treated were very highly managed horses, so that may the difference between my perspective and your vet's.  When I was in ambulatory practice, I saw mostly uncomplicated gas colics due to changes in pasture and feed.

Nate

Mostly Harmless